Are you an Artist?

I wont feel threatened. I am secure in Sabelle's love for me.

'The Wasteland' is an academic's poem - when I read it as preparation for a module, I thought it was cack, because without extensive literary knowledge it makes no sense - it is written, literally, in the language of literary academia, and that alienates it from most people. A few opinions come across - but most are your typical 'the world's gone to pots' nonsense. Needless to say, when I began to read it as an academic - unearthing the sources and decoding the allusions - I found the process very enjoyable and worthwhile. I would never write off something just because its language is inaccessible to me, but there's so much competing writing these days that this kind of stuff, by nature, will not be given due attentions outside of academia. That's fine by me, because I don't think Eliot has anything vital or up to date to say in that poem. It is, however, a crowning example of the use of a particular language to express a series of ideas. Now, with regards to judging writing, I've given up trying to put one thing above another, and I think the world has with me - statements praising the superiority of some aspect of literature, or indeed some aspect of creative expression, seem awfully dated. They are points of interest (who is the critic in conversation with?) but not authoritative, and writing via a singular philosophy about the over-arcing splendidness of 'rhyme', 'structure' or 'life lived in the middle' (Mr. Leslie Epstein ahoy,) is just clipping your own wings. Art surely resists the ideals of craft - that it can come about via a hierarchy of rules and practiced techniques. In fact, once a technique is pinned down and made to look like a comprehendable process, it quickly becomes a turn-off. Who's excited by the term 'postmodernism' anymore? Art has gotta be exciting on some level - it's gotta shock you out of any simple map of the world you've got set up, any comfortable system by which your surroundings are dismissed. Art...perhaps...is a reintroduction to the dull and familiar. Now, as for this business of artists and writers.... I consider myself a 'writer' because it's a helluva lot easier than saying, "I spend long periods in my room, and I often note things down in my notebook that seem pointless or whimsical, but don't panic - this is all part of my process of living, and you may see evidence of its paying off one day." No one claims they themselves are an artist - it's a judgement, and not a particularly valuable one. It's often used as flattery to get asses like us to sign up to businessman's schemes. 'Genius' is likewise overused to the point of being worthless, since it supposedly reflects a radical rarity of talent. What we surely want, if we're artists in the sense of reintroducing each other to the familiar, is to avoid placing significance on these labels and look instead for something that really represents, in an as yet unheard of but familiar way, what exactly it is we're up to. Although I'm content to elude definition for now and feel my way along. So, like, I agree with everyone else.

I like wasteland, for the same reason as hen. Its not easy, wasnt designed to be easy...For ease, i prefer prufrock, which is also beautiful to dissect.

Haven't read the above (yet) but on the question: Surely everyone has a creative side..so doesn't that count as Art? I 'spose it goes down to the definition of Art.

Anyone seen dicko?

Do you flash flash?

Aww, Mann. Go away. You only wanna cause trouble. This was the first thread that has got me enthused for a while as well.

Luvvly Jubbly, so it's a menage a trois at the next ABC event. Though by the way you two are going, I think there'll be a few people on the boards wanting to share some 'quality time ' with you. All good fun tho, what.

I know what you mean.. I just like his imagery in the middle there.. 'with the window open and the scattered noises' Are you the guy who wrote Go On My Son..? I read that the other day.. Liked it a lot.. especially the line 'I touched my mum when she cried today' (If I remember rightly) ..very nice.. liked the fragility of home life kind of thing. You are very good Tony

It's only...erm wats his name.....

I;d say writers/authors are artist's. Art doesn;t have to be visual, it can be of spoken form (Music?) so...

The doumentary on George Orwell discussed on the "The Late Review" looks stunning that could be art. "Bowling for Columbine" different but technically artistic?

Yes Liana, prufrock too is wonderful, and not just for dissection (like an patient etherised upon a table) even now i know most of the opening section of by heart it just flows so beautifully, so cleverly constucted, startling imagery (again , in its context) time moves on thnew (usually) loses it spower to schock on novelty value anyway, but the beauty remains (sometimes) let us let us go through certain half deserts street the muttering retreats tha lead like a tedious ansargument of insidious intent -whoops back to the ABC discussion board again Hen , it's a grand debte ain't it this art business, it's been done more times than the meat in a kebeb shop but hey it can still tast e good as you say so much boils down to practical definitions in the end, the wittgensteinian approach to the problems of definition and essences that has plagued philosophers for centuries over question such as what is x not That the the Witt/linguistic approach is one I have that great a faith in, but it does help to release the fly from the fly bottle art writing is something people practise, writers tend to share family likeneeses, they may not have all the typical characterisitics, but they (usually?) share one or two, like you I don't round calling or thinking or myself as an artist, that's for others if they want definition by social consent, the wittgensteinian indeed marxist appeal beyonfd the private to the public i like the shorthand description bit of saying writer rather than 'one who sits in a room etc' that's what language is partly about, coming up with abstract nouns to make life easier then writers often wave their wand and make the abstract real, in fiction, or not, oh dear time to stop :-)

Another point is how many artists have been inspired by by literature. If writing is inspirational, it is creative. If it is creative in the true form, it must be art. btw yes I love prufrock proves the point of my post that it paints a pitcure with words.

good morning sabelle, le soleil brille, je suis tranqui, tu es jolie are you measuring ourt your life in coffe spoons are you eating a peach (oo er) if you think you're a pair of ragged claws isn't it time you gave those hallucinogenics a rest BTW like Hen (i think) i steer well way from all this if its creative it's art stuff leave Art to the Arts Council and the grant givers that's wot i say, me i'm just a plain ole writer, mind if you called me an artist (quietly, it's early no-one else is around, i might blush and say oh thank you, tell you wht I'll call you an artist, there- artist- now you call me one, go on, lovely)

Well, I learnt that perhaps art is the posing of age old questions in new and interesting ways.. implying that the time may be righta gain to challenge received wisdom in a particular field. After all, though the questions may be age old.. the answers may different for this age.... and the artist's contribution is in recognising and leading this mass conciousness change.. So todays craft started of as art in its time, and presumably todays art will end up as craft one day. By my definition then, artists abound in all human endeavors.. . Who says there is no progress?

Are Bullshit artists included?

Do you mean with a camera or a dirty mac. Answer is no and no i don't have the equipment for either activity.

That's a good question. I'll think about it. And no obviously comments about being a p*** artist.

I believe the Turner prize is quite generous in that respect Monsieur Spag

Great. So you think i'll win the Turner prize? WoooHoooo

Actually Tony, I'm wondering whether I should say it or or not, whether my head is on Salome's plate and whether the women are saying I am thin and bald!!!!! Maybe I should swim with the mermaids, become a siren & cause all sailors to capsize. Mais tu est un artiste. Est-ce que tu contente maintenant?

I am an artist because I do art. I have always written as well, since I learnt the alphabet. The art came first because drawing is what a kid does before they learn to read and write. But I started to see myself as an artist from the beginning and words is one of the media I use . I feel no sense of art being a career although I exhibit and sell my work. It's not a hobby either. It doesn't bother me but I'm not sure why on this thread art has become synonymous with pretension. 1legspider said at the top 'no false modesty'. Unless we're talking about writing non-fiction or composing forms for people to fill in, I think writing is art. Writers are artists who create mental pictures. The art is in transmitting the picture.

writers are artists because they create pictures with words. And if you want to be really deep, the readers' imagination is the canvass.

I can't get it together right now to lay out my credentials, maybe later! However, I think some writers are artists, and some writers are mainly craftsmen, note I didn't say 'just' craftsmen. I think you can be a good writer without being an artist in the sense that a super-realist painter is obviously technically skilled but you might dispute that what they do is creative. I don't think you can be a good writer, creative or not, without having any sense of craft. obviously I'm open to dispute.

Writing (prose/poetry) is the only Art that has no artists.

Andoru Just catching up with the forums Yes I am the 'Go On My son' writer, and thank you for the compliment :-)

Excellent replies may I say. What is art anyway? you can obviously go down the philosophical route for a lovely long debate, and there's many a person that's done that, including myself. But to keep it short here, I'll take the Freda tack, and say no art without craft, certainly as far as 'literature eg poetry, novels, short stories) is concerned. I'm afraid when I read poetry on here, that is badly spelt, lacking any grammatical awareness, or any discernible structure, I quickly move on. I suspect some of our editors look first for a striking image or subject matter, not me, mate! As far I'm concerned I'm a writer, because over the last twenty odd years I've produced a coherent set of works that display structure, oherence, brilliant linguistic word play at times, an awareness of the Englishlanguage and culture, striking metaphors, clever similes, apt rhymes etc, etc, most of the typical poet's trade. I've allso written songs,am well on my way with my second novel, plays, short stories, articles, most of the typical literary categories. However, I don't particularly see myself as an artist, because it's too nebulous/pretentious a term for writers, however if I could claim some tax relief on the strength of it, enrol in the artist's union now, bruv.

Tried to write a long reply to this debate but it didn't post for some reason. Thought all points very interesting. I don't know what art or artists are ..I don't think it's very constructive to start worrying about it for much of the time. I'd rather talk about specific so-called works of art. Thought posts on Eliot v. interesting.. I like Eliot.. the only problem I have with The Waste Land is that it's allusions seem more important than the words on the page, in some way. The beginning and the ending is great but the middle is just too jam-packed with linguistic tricks and literary and anthropological codes for my liking. Although I love the 'Goonnight Lou, Goodnnight Ladies' bit. Four Quartets seemed a lot more straightforward to me.. if very miserable. There's a paragraph from Rilke's 'The Notebook of Malte Laurids Brigge' in his Selected Poems called 'For the Sake of a Single Poem' that sums up what I feel about this topic. It's a bit romantic tho. I'll try digging it out and posting it later.

Some editors look for both Tony.. and you'd be surprised at the amount of people who would also class their work as display(ing) structure, coherence, brilliant linguistic word play at times, an awareness of the English language and culture, striking metaphors, clever similes, apt rhymes etc, etc. When patently, it isn't, however generously one reads it. I heard something on the radio earlier about this - someone said that (some) writing certainly can be viewed as art, because art is anything which alters the readers/onlookers view of the world.

I cared little for Eliot until i studied him, which convinces me always to try and understand everything.. i love prufocks cynical hopefullness, it's flat soft sarcasm....one thing i found when reading a biog of eliot, was that love song of j. alfred prufrock was originally called "prufrock among the women" and he only changed it because he admired the kipling poem "love song of har dyal" so much. Nice to know the giants are not above a little inspirational plagiarism eh? :o)

Well if I take it you do look for 'both' Liana, well done. But some obviously don't because I could list a whole tree full of cherried pieces that are badly spelt, lacking any grammatical structure etc. Incidentally, naturally I'm not claiming any particular one piece of mine displays all the attributes I listed, nor would I look for that, I was referring to the body of work I've put together, which gives me confidence in calling myself a writer. As for the originality bit, doesnt do it for me. It's like people who say, oh my child writes poetry too, pleese. a seven year old may well write something original in that only that person has ever experienced and expressed the world in such a way, and if that makes them an artist, thats why I dont want anything to do with the term. Anyone can be original, depending on your definition. Equally anyone can be a writer/artist dpending etc, so then you do down the route 'real' writer etc to me it's a case of 'show me the money' if you've painted a stack of pictures you're in with a chance of being an artist, but thats just the opening bid, simarly if youve writeen a stack of poems, stories etc

I would never call myself an artist or even a writer. I am just someone who writes. And reads. I have a democratic approach to writing - i believe writing should be simple and easily understood and have something to say. I believe that everyone has something to say and i thought that that was what abc was all about. it doesn't have to be grammatically correct, or well spelt. those things can be taught. that's just my opinion. so don't shoot me down. i'm quite sensitive.

And more trivia, Liana.. Early Draft of Waste Land was called 'He Do the Police in Different Voices' which I much prefer. Agree with Freda's thoughts on craft as well.. there is a certain artistry in meticulously crafting something. Reading Mishima is rubbing off. Perhaps I mean craft in a different way. I was wrong about all my anti-description rants. It really depends on the writer. Mishima is endlessly describing things.. and it is always magical and never dull at all. If anyone gets a chance to read 'Spring Snow' I think you'll see what I mean. To me there seem to be two kinds of artists, lazy swaggering, sometimes-sentimental ones like Kerouac, Osamu Dazai, Hemingway, Celine and Joyce ..who have a ton of imitators. And there are the meticulous, studious ones like Murakami, Mishima, Woolf, Orwell (to an extent), Thomas Mann, Hesse etc. I think maybe an artist is somoeone who gets paid to produce art. You could take 'paid' and 'art' in many ways but I think thats the simplest way of putting it. However there are degrees ..and I know countless people who are artistic and creative and original in there thinking who are not artists as I see them. Meaning I must have a conception of the artist, I s'pose. I'd rather not get into it though.

I think writing Non-fiction us an art form too. Same on public speaking as with acting.

drew, drew, don't let missi know, he'll grill you for breakfast :-) Naturally you have your right to your opinions in a sense i'm happy for anyone who can wite two words in a row to be called a writer, and anyone who can draw a matchstick man to be an artist (I hope i'm not being too stringent or elitist here) but all that happens is the goalposts get shifted, and we want to talk about 'good witers' very good etc I'm afraid I cum from TS Eliot school of hard knocks me, if tha divvne knows what a metaphor is and how to produce one tha aint a proper writer same goes for badly spelt , ungrammatical/non-grammatical unstructured stuff unless the writer can convince me otherwise, which they almost certainly won't be able to, cos I'm a miserable git!

You can express very complex things in a simple way. Eliot's trouble was that he expressed very simple things in a complex way.

And indeed that is what abc is about, and long may it be so. Drew, I need to speak to you about something?

You have a good point - presenting infomation in an interesting and clear way requires vision. I suppose this goes on to ask is documentary art ............

Being a writer isn't about being a naturally correct speller, but generally people have little excuse for that. We have spell checkers and dictionaries. Grammar is not something you'll necessarily learn at school these days, and I think if you missed out on that only avid reading is going to put you straight. Conversation won't. If a piece of writing has consistency and conviction I would overlook a spelling mistake or two but it still irks. Typos and bad grammar are going to slow the flow down, make less satisfying the reading process and therefore distract from the c. and c. But with regards to the 'art' side of it, I think there IS magic or chemistry which makes some people brilliant writers. For me the chemistry is in something which flows un-selfconsciously and takes you along with it, and that's even if you're not sure you understand what the hell it's about in a rational way. Like music. I know for sure this magic exists : I remember at school there were some paragraphs in text books you had to repeat parrot fashion when revising, in order to remember. One of our teachers didn't use text books but wrote his version on the board to be copied. Somehow everything he wrote , perhaps through idiosyncracy, went in, you could connect with it and more or less quote word for word perfectly.

Drew, isn't one of the key points about poetry is that it expresses itself, what type of complexity are you talking about? Also could give me a simple and cheent expression in prose or poetry of Einstein's Theory of General Relativity or what is consciousnessness for example Liana, pray tell just what abc is about, as it's not clear to me from your post

Freda i would certainly agree with you that bad spelling, poor or non-existent grammar in themselves dont disqualify a piece from being good, but as you say it can be a hindrance and often a sign that hey if the writer couldnt be bothered why should i? i'mnot sure i know what you mean about the magic flow of a piece, you compare it to music, well practically all perhaps all great music at least in the Western tradition i know about has very difinite structures, 'grammar and punctuation' chords, key sequences rhythm etc, not just the obvious classical examples but blues, pop etc the example you quote of the teacher, the magic presumably exactly came from years of practice, knowledge, experience allied to a brilliant writing style shakespeare has a magic that flows, but it's based on lot of craft and practise. i find that Yeats and eliot catch fire at times like but ditto the above same with Ted Hughes and James joyce obviously some people will see magic where others see dross, it's always difficult/impossible to get a universal agreement about this

whoops Drew should have read 'simple and coherent' Typos bah!

"I believe that everyone has something to say and i thought that that was what abc was all about."

Fair enough Liana :-) I'm more than happy to go with that. It's just that Drew was talking about expressing complex things simply and the 'trouble with Eliot' (that's one of the great poets of the 20th century BTW Drew), which is a more controversial point, and as I posted I'm not sure what type of complexity he's talking about. I'm still waiting to get a reply to that and then I might get some kind of handle on his theory of literature and criticisms of Eliot specifically.

This is just my opinion - and I completely respect the right of anyone to have an opinion. The Waste Land has a simple meaning. Since the fall of an absolutist monarchy then the land is in disarray, as comes over in the allegory of the Fisher King. Eliot was anti-democracy and therefore made his poetry deliberately difficult so the common people could not understand it. There is no worth in his allusions. The language is not beautiful. It is merely clever in the worst possible way. Einstein's Theory of Relativity is the opposite. It is simple and coherent in itself. It does not need further explanation. Shakespeare is the opposite too. We regard it as 'high art' now maybe but it was something that was popular in its time. Of course, everything that is simple is not good. Just as all that is good is not simple.

Andoru, like the point about the Waste LAnd going awry in the middle, i havent read it for years but that feels about right, overall though its up there with Joyce's Ulysess, Picasso's Guernica, Stravinsky's Rites of Spring ,the Arsenal side of the 1930s and much more besides as a key moment in 20th Century 'Western' art. See what i'll do for Sabelle now she's called me an artist, can't wait to meet her at an ABC event, so long as Spag doesnt get jealous ooh handbags at ten paces luvvly

I agree with Freda. There is an art to good writing. How many of us have bought a book because the idea was good, but the story didn't fulfil expectation and it's not just practice. Some writers will improve with age, but some people could write for years & still not inspire. Writing is inspirational, but as all art forms subject to individuality. As for music, Tony, yes there is a basic structure, but it's been experimented with to form the rhythm that you want. That's how music has evolved into so many forms, but there are few innovators. It's the same with writing. People enjoy different styles but there still has to be magic. Back to football. Beckham, Bergkamp, Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo and many more are magical. The skills they show can be honed but not learned. There are non-league players who won't make it because they haven't got the natural skill and even if they trained for years non-stop would not be magical. And they make difficult passes look simple. That also is an art.

He knows how much I love him. He cheers me up when I feel fed up. So he shouldn't feel threatened But it will be a pleasure to meet you Tony

Do you know Drew, I thought you were going to say something like that about Eliot. I wouldn't know where to begin arguing with you, it would just take too long. But my central point would be that THe 'Waste Land' is an incredibly complex thing in itself, it cant be reduced to being 'about monarchy' or 'Fisher Kings' it contins fantastic image after fantastic image 'April is the cruellest month' bang we're in , one of the greatest lines of English poetry ever in the context of whats to come, there's structure depth resonance word play rhtyhmic variation, it's poetry, at the time it broke helped to break new ground in artistic endeavour and ways of viewing literature and the world, it's not something that's just about something As for Einstein's Theory of Relativity explains itself, what for one thing there's two theories I specifically mentioned the gEneral Theory, so that wasn't a good start, Einstein himself had tremendous difficulties reconciling them himself and in fact never did so, for example th question of the cosmologicsl constant The relationship of space and time this is all clear and simple is it, space is curved or not, this is all obvious, they're still arguing about it Drew Still thanks for outlining some of the basis for your literary theory, it helps give an insight into this debate , best wishes seriously :-) I like a nice debate me :-0)