when stories like this hit the headlines my gut response is similar to yours. but then i find myself wondering how messed up you'd have to be to consider sexually assaulting a child. surely this person should be removed to a secure place where he can get the kind of help he so obviously needs and so that those children he has violated can feel safe. it's not a question of how long society decides he ought to be incarcerated for the crime, but one of offering the kind of support and counselling which will help the abuser to come to terms with what he has done and to acknowledge and unpack the damage which turned him into an abuser. even then, he has to be counselled away from sexual behaviour which may have become habit-forming. no judge is in a position to place a time-limit on this therapy. an abuser can choose to continue abusing despite seeming to have progressed in therapy - it's a lifestyle which depends upon deceit.
the victims will need counselling and support to be available for many years to come.
we should also ask ourselves: how messed up must society be to produce such a sick individual? it's our fault and it's beholden to us to try to put it right and to prevent further abuse. is it something to do with our attitude to sex?
You seem to ignore that maybe people who do these things don't have ANY feelings of anything except self-gratification, Jon. Personally I don't give a flying f.uck about the abuser, to suggest he has already received a life sentance is rhetorical bollocks. WE'VE all received a life sentance from the second we were conceived, some humans are just plain rejects.
Hen, I'm not going to get into the shortfalls of the prison system in the UK. However, a sentence has to be given and in this case I don't believe it's long enough for the crime. Sure, I don't know about his background, it's highly likely that he has some damage in his past but you can't let that be an excuse for people to roam free with a slap on the wrist. In an ideal world he would be helped, counselled, given whatever support he needs in prison and would come through the other end. In an ideal world, the kids that he has abused would receive the same support and will grow up without fear and need for revenge / replication. But it's not an ideal world and this crime, and its sentence, proves it.
Welcome back George. Glad that you are back to your old self. Where would the lowest common denominator be without you?
It’s an awful thing that has happened here, beyond belief.
But we cannot shoot everyone in the back. We are not animals. Why do these things happen? There has to be reasons for such things as this.
Are people born bad? Or does evil manifest and react through societies shortcomings?
I don’t know.
Does anyone?
Ralph
THIS POOR CHAP !!!!
OK, let's give him a 13mth old baby every Friday and who knows he may eventually get fed up with raping them and move on to twats like you.
On the facts available in the public domain, I can't see how this sentence is anything other than ridiculous.
Of course, society bears some responsibility for crime but the legal system is also part of society and in this case, a failing part.
I strongly believe that society in general needs to be made a better place so that less people end up in a state where they commit crime but I can't see how setting disgustingly light sentences for serious sex offenders is a step towards making that happen.
Like others, I am a liberal but when I'm making my list of liberties, a baby's right not to be raped is pretty high on it.
i don't believe that anyone in this discussion so far has questioned the baby's right not to be raped - or any child for that matter. but surely this bloke also has the right - as most of us do - to an opportunity NOT to go through life raping kids.
Needles to say Poppitts "The Real Ralph" above is not the real Ralph.
Do you honestly think I would write about not shooting everyone in the back without mentioning another innocent in Fred Barras?
Chrissie we all have the 'opportunity' to go through life without raping kids or indeed anyone. You make it sound as though the guy was underprivileged in the sexual behaviour dept. It's an unfortunate fact of life that a percentage of humans are basically failures in the civilisation area. Thwere is nothing you can do with them except exclude them. Do-gooders do nothing to make life safer or better for anyone.
Fred Barras is now a reformed character who promises never to re-offend. I believe him.
i happen to believe he was underpriveleged in the sexual behaviour department. some - perhaps even most of us come through our conditioning and go on to have relatively wholesome - if not completely fulfilling - sex lives. i am concerned about what happens to warp those possibilities for a few people. surely, it's in our interests to find out what motivates someone to behave in this way. how can we ever hope to prevent it happening? i don't have a response for cynics. they've always already written themselves out of any argument....
Do you know Fred personally George? Did he ring you to tell this or did you have dinner with him?
Explain your belief George.
Is it true that you archive everything that is written on this site? Why do you do that? No malaice on this point. I am just interested as to your reasons.
Are you going to the Dylan gig
Ralph
Im with both sides im afraid... i want to know what makes someone DO something like this - by understanding, hopefully eventually will come prevention.
However, five years is an appallingly ridiculous sentence which in so way shape or form makes up for what has happened to the child. But would twenty years? No it wouldnt.
My guess is that a tiny baby that has been raped by a grown man would suffer appalling internal injuries for a start.
Its so horrendously sad it makes me cry.
well, i know it's not necessarily in the same league, but i used to smack my kids. then i underwent some therapy which helped me to realise why i chose this method of discipline. i then had a choice: to continue on the same course, or to find other methods. i chose the latter and decided to learn how to engage with my children instead of trying to control them. a lot of other good things followed. the conselling provided the opportunity for change and i made a choice which benefitted everyone concerned.
Sorry Liana but it just isn't preventable, it's a part of the makeup of the human race, we're all fooled by the veneer of civilisation but it isn't our natural state. We are all still basically hunter gatherers that submit to law and order grudgingly. Some people just never get it under control. We find it offensive because subconsciously we know it could be us.
Im not so sure that it isnt preventable. But then I dont know anything about the psychosexual treatment area, so you may well be right.
What if a gene that caused such behaviour was isolated?
Then what?
Vicky, theres one for your ethics of homicide essay!!!!
i guess it's possible that a gene could be isolated at some time in the future. but when it comes to behaviour, i'm a nurture rather than nature theorist: the gene may prove a predisposition toward certain behaviours, but ultimately environment and personal choices will determine the outcome. i reckon.
In psychology circles chrissie, though its still debated its generally accepted nurture roolz. Ask an adult who was battered all through his childhood why he has no kids though, and you will find they come down rather strongly on the nature side...they often believe and areterrified of doing the same. Ever heard of the expression Nature will epeats itself?
It needs preventing. Whatever the cause, it needs preventing. I dont think anyone can argue that...
I wouldn't know where to start ruling the world, Missi. My point is that you attack every issue as if there's a simple, obvious solution that a bunch of 'retards' are missing. You don't seem to accept for a moment that where there is complications over rules and situations, where there are people whose acts defy belief or attempts at understanding, people of equal intelligence and moral fortitude are going to come to *different* conclusions. There might be a Missi somewhere who thinks it's equally obvious that people like this rapist should all be handed over to doctors and *never* go to jails. Fair enough, you think they should be killed, that they don't deserve to exist, but there's nothing overrulingly brilliant or obviously right about that idea, any more than there is about the five years in jail.
Your views are your own, but you show such complete contempt for other arguments, it seems.
actually i was battered all through my childhood liana. so battered, i think, that i decided to have kids as soon as possible to affirm for me that i was loveable. thank god i discovered how misguided this approach was before i seriously damaged another generation. i wonder how many other damaged adults out there are having babies because they need to be loved, then punishing them for being the needy ones...
Good for you on breaking the cycle chrissie - i have two friends like i outlined above. One eventually had a child after 13 years of marriage and still lives in fear of harming the daughter she cherishes - the other wouldnt remotely consider having children for the fear of that very thing re occuring.
I understand that fitting the punishment to the crime is very difficult as no-one can ever know exactly the motivations and circumstances of behind a criminal event. I'm all for rehabilitation, offering support and treatment, people 'doing their time', and I'm completely against the capital punishment. However, there is a f*cking limit!
Raping a baby??
I think you have to draw the line somewhere and raping a baby is an action so far over the line, it's in another frigging dimension. This man should have got life. Not only did he commit rape, but his victim was a BABY!! I can't even begin to imagine the damage he has caused to that child and the parents...
This man should be kept well away from other human beings for the rest of his life.
Just my opinion folks...
perhaps it doesn't necessarily start with having sexual feeelings for the baby. it may begin, for example, with feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, desperation, feeling trapped (in behaviours, actions in which the individual feels he has no control). then manifest itself in this kind of violently abusive act.
i can't help feeling that people who over-simplify arguments like this are too frightened to confront the darker side of humanity - of themselves.
yeah, but... it was a baby.
I understand what you mean Chrissie, but the end result is simply to brutal to offer any kind of reprieve.
Five years is a positively laughable
Does it make any difference what problems this man has?
If it were my child he raped, he wouldn't have to worry about a prison sentence. Then who would care for my children?
He should never be allowed to do this again and ruin another child's life.
But another argument is how do we stop this child from inflicting this atrocity on someone when he/she gets older. That's what should we should be focussing on. The baby is the injured party & should get as much support as he/she needs.
The critical words in your post, Jon are the last two, 'it seems'. You see I do acknowledge that maybe I don't get my exact feelings across, probably due to the fact that 'I' know what they are and make assumptions that others will interpret my words accordingly.
It wasn't my meaning to suggest that we fear we may make the same mistake on an individual basis Ems (I know I could never harm a baby nor rape anyone, so that fear isn't present in me, but I know I could be moved to violence in the right circumstances), more that subconsciously we fear acceptance of our basic instincts. They've been suppressed by several thousand years of 'civilisation'. They explode like an active volcano now and then, as in the alacrity with which the human race pursues war against it's own kind.
Why when in the wee small hours of the morning when I am thinking of
for once what is for me getting to bed early do the threads become
interesting so I can’t leave them before I reply? Then half the day is gone
before I get up.
Just thinking out loud folks no need for an answer.
I unlike AJ was not sexually assaulted as a child but would have been if
my mother hadn’t caught one of my uncles in time so there, I consider
myself very lucky and my uncle had nothing wrong with him apart from
being a very!!! Dirty old man.
I was put in a home though at the age of two were they abused you in
every!!! other way to numerous to mention right up till the age of twelve
when my mum could afford to take me out of there.
Sorry folks if any one cares will after all have to continue tomorrow as I
still have washing up in the sink to do and I am staving hungry so must
eat before I sleep so back later today…
Bit late but I’m back, A very!!! Interesting debate and I read all !! Last
night and the one that did it for me was "Feckys" thread and even that
would be to good for him as it would be much to quick and he would not
have suffered but at least it would be one less scum on this earth to deal
with.
Have given my opinion and call me blinkered or whatever suits you will
only be wasting your time as I am not at all interested…
STUFF THIS 'POOR ABUSER' I AM SO SICK OF HEARING THE SAYING........WHEN WE BECOME ADULTS WE MAKE CHOICES.
I WAS SEXUALLY ABUSED BY ALL OF MY MOTHERS PARTNERS. BUT I WOULD NEVER ABUSE ANOTHER PERSON IN THIS WORLD.
WHY BECAUSE I AM AN ADULT AND AS SUCH I MAKE A CONSCIOUS DECISION 'NOT TO'.
SO GIVE THE SICK BASTARD LIFE.........AND I HOPE HE IN TURN IS ABUSED BY THE INMATES OF THE PRISON..........DAILY.
PS.........RAIF AND HEN.........ARE YOU SECRET ABUSERS? COS EVERYTIME SOMEBODY HAS THE AUDACITY TO DEFEND THE INNOCENT CHILD YOU TWO COME ON AND PROCLAIM ...........AW POOR OLD ABUSER ETC.
Get a f.ucking grip, AJ. You come out with the same guff every time this issue comes up, so don't talk to me about tired party lines. And wielding your 'I was abused' line as some kind of special credential or battle axe belittles and disrespects not only your own experiences, but the whole issue. True, it gives you a wholly different perspective, but it doesn't make you more 'right' or more reasonable.
And hoping that this person is abused in revenge is just sickening.
I'm sure you're going to tell me to "Look at real life" or some other equally redundant advice, so I'll tell you now, *save it.* I've got no respect at all for your warped, backward take on things, because you always, absolutely *always* begin by attacking and insulting other people, as if that somehow makes you sound more reasonable. Try exercising your 'freedom of choice' as an adult and choosing NOT TO.
Ps Forgot my usual saying which is oh so!!! true.
Every! and I mean Every!! experience in life has to be lived and gone
through before one can possiably!!! know what its like and a gess is
always as good as a mile in all instances.
For that reason I thought a lot of very unkind words were read by me last
night especially to a certain individual AJ...
Karl I,d be delighted to get some references on the sort of behavioural change you mention(seriously).The only stuff with decent outcome statistics I've seen is the cognitive-behavioral methods and they tend to fall apart on 'hard-wired' functions such as sexuality.Moral reasoning is a particulary dodgy area and it is quite possible to logically reach radically different positions from differing but unsubstantiable premises.My intuition in this case , as sadly it often is ,is hack, maim ,slay.I suspect this is not very useful.My understanding is that circles of abuse statistically follow familial rather than actual abuse 'lines' though the two overlap greatly ths suggesting genetic components to the behaviour.Excellent thread Missi.
I think if I came across a person performing such an act I would have no moral qualms about killing him/her there and then. If the child was known or related to me this would be preceded by the most extreme torture I could devise in the short time before I wiped him/her out...
There you are... given the right circumstances we are all capable of being extremely violent.... there is nothing right or wrong about it...
The thing is, on reflection, at the very basic level, is to accept the humanity of this person and in doing that to at least attempt at rehabilitating him. Ultimately, he is responsible for his actions however and I feel 5 years punishment is not enough given the few facts I have gleaned about this case.
More important than villifying him and throwing away the key is to try and learn from him.... what mindset, what medical conditions, what environmental factors... led to him in being capable of performing such self degrading acts?
People who carry out heinous crimes like these carry a wealth of information locked in their brains.... which we should try and dissect and unpack if we are to have any hope of lessening these sort of crimes in the future...
Blowing his brains out can be justified, but does nothing to prevent re-occurence. We owe it to the abused to try and do more... unfortunately that bit is harder.
If you think you can tell right from wrong, try this moral inclination research test, being conducted by Harvard:
People who carry out heinous crimes like these carry a wealth of information locked in their brains.... which we should try and dissect and unpack if we are to have any hope of lessening these sort of crimes in the future...
Yes. Spot on Leg. And theres nothing wrong with locking them up for a long long time, until their dicks are so useless they could never harm another child, while we're at it is there?
Hen, lucky you to have never experienced the sick peeps that live in the real world. I am happy that you have retained your innocence.
However...despite your take on my views, they are from the real victims. People like me who have suffered under the hands of 'I was abused as a child syndrome'.
I stand by my views, because unlike you I have walked the walk and have a right to tell it like it is.
And yes I will always come out and defend the innocent child......because they are the victims. They are our future. WE need to lock awaaay peeps who perpertrate these sick acts to protect any further damage.
Unlike burglary etc sex offences are there forever. They are thoughts that need to be fulfilled. And as yet I know of no cure for a thought. Perhaps you do in your educated, blinkered way.
Now why don't you go out into the real world and really talk to victims, prior to your bleetings about the poor abuser.
I agree with Liana and 1leg.
AJ - you don't have a clue about real life. You live in a goddamn cocoon that you've made yourself over the years out of self-deception and newspaper articles. You tell it like it is about as well as Alistair Campbell.
When you can hear and understand everyone's point of view - the victim's, the abuser's, the court's...everyone's, *then* you can claim authority of opinion. Until then, you're fumbling as much as the rest of us to make sense of it, and your unwillingness to try different viewpoints puts you, as far as I'm concerned, well below me in terms of tacking 'real life'. You're stuck with one narrow, gloomy perspective that you refuse to question.
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