About this 'war' thing

112 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Fri, 2004-05-14 00:15

Leaving aside the legality or otherwise, of the need to invade and liberate Iraq (anyone who doesn't realise that Iraq has been liberated is living in cloud-cuckoo land).

Also leaving aside the tragic, heartbreaking situations which lead to innocents such as children and pregnant women being killed and maimed by accident, in a war situation.

I refuse to believe that such incidents, perpetrated by British or American soldiers,are anything but tragic accidents.

I want to shout out on behalf of the ordinary, naive young grunt (male or female) who ends up in a war situation. I was once that grunt. Most of them end up in that situation because they don't know what else to do with themselves.

Please note that I can only speak from the perspective of a 'white', Western-world grunt.

Can I firstly say that I am totally against war - anyone who has ever read and digested any of my poetry will already know that.

But........

This 'war' thingy...from the point of view of the ordinary grunt in a war situation...... bear in mind that the vast majority of soldiers, are soldiers because they don't have any other option in life...... and are the same people as you and I......

The object of going to war is to kill as many of the enemy as possible, as quickly as possible, in order to save your own life and the life of your mates, and thus be triumphant as soon as possible...... and thus get back home to a hero's welcome.

If you capture an enemy, alive - you must get him to tell you everything about the strengths, weaknesses, positions, etc, of his forces. You must get him to tell you this because it will help you to kill as many of his forces as possible, and thus bring forward the end of the war.

Any enemy soldier worth his salt will not give you this information. So you must TERRORISE him to make him give you this information.

You must degrade him..... beat him..... strip him naked....... humiliate him..... mock him...... deprive him of sleep........ starve him........ PISS ON HIS HEAD!!!!!! YOU MUST DO THIS, TO GET HIM TO GIVE YOU INFORMATION!!!!!!! All within the rules and regulations of the Geneva convention, of course (argue about the technicalities after you've won the war).

Any soldier, in any war, for whatever reason, who wasn't prepared to do this, probably didn't get back home alive.

That is the stark reality of war. Your grandfather probably acted in this way and my grandfather probably did too.

Please don't denigrate the ordinary, average squaddie for any sensationalised reports and photographs you may see.

The ordinary, average squaddie is you and I, your son and my son, your child and my child. His / her sins are your sins and my sins (if in deed they are sins - or just the tragic, awful sins of all of us).

Shout and curse about the ongoing need to go to war. But please don't shout out at the poor bastards who end up going to war.

[%sig%]

Tue, 2004-05-18 23:31

Mykle

I'm not always drunk Flash, it's only recently that I've sarted drinking again - but, I have no problem with it, until I run out :o) Seriously, it seems to be about twice a week and it's more the cigarette smoking that's worrying me at the moment - eight so far tonight :o( Two left a a can and a half of Stella to go.

Tue, 2004-05-18 00:41

Karl Wiggins

So your assertion is that NONE of us read the news properly ..... except for yourself, that is. I don't, that's for sure, but surely SOME of us do. Anyway, as you've now turned to insulting me simply because I questioned the fact that you so obviously look down your nose at people of a different social class than yourself, even going to so far as to call them traler park trash, I'd be interested to discover what specifically about my posts indicates that I am male, white, very thick and redfaced.

Tue, 2004-05-18 23:33

stormy

I'm not sure I can amplify. I am asking you to consider how these pics came into the public domain and what posible motives there could be. I suggested one but i have no idea if it has any credence. Ahh, I know! The answer is oil!

Tue, 2004-05-18 00:52

radiodenver

I don't read the news and I work for the largest frigg'n newspaper on the planet. I think it's a good idea to ignore the newspapers if at all possible. Now, about this trailor trash thing. I'm from a very well established White Trash breeding ground here in America. Karl, I've read your posts and by default you couldn't be Trailor Trash. You can write. I was once arrested for smuggling books into Kentucky... The charges were dismissed though, nobody could prove they were books.

Tue, 2004-05-18 23:40

Mykle

:o) I'm sure the answer is right, as regards Iraq, whatever the question, Colin. As I already suggested, i think that money might be a prime motive but the obvious is rarely the true motive. I think you might have hit on something important with "perhaps it is part of their defence strategy" but I can't quite see how it fits.... just a feeling that since, as you say, it's now in the public domain it can't be 'revealed' later... I'm not sure yet but I think you're on to something there!

Tue, 2004-05-18 01:20

stormy

Dear God, this is sooo tedious. No Karl, I do not look down on people due to social class and I'm not insulting you anymore than you insulted me. You thought you spotted a weakness in my argument and went for me. You have no idea of my background (for I don't talk about it much) and have clearly missed the point I made in which I said I "quoted" the trailer park trash remark. My post above was clearly a piss-take of your's to me. Did you and Denver not see that? Sheesh kebabbed again. btw: >>I'd be interested to discover what specifically about my posts indicates that I am male, white, very thick and redfaced.<< see above. x

Tue, 2004-05-18 09:21

mississippi

I thought it was common knowledge what the term 'trailer park trash' means. Well it's common to me anyhow.

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:07

stormy

keep at it mykle! Consider this analogy: these threads are kitchen nightmares and now and then, they need a gordon fucking ramsay input

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:13

#10

mississippi

Have you always been a wan.ker mykle, or is it something you've worked at in later life?

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:17

#11

Mykle

It might seem that some of my earlier comments suggesting that the Americans would use ‘terrorist prisoners’ as subjects for psychological experiments seemed a bit too far fetched - and you’re right - I am a bit paranoid (of course the joke is 'am I paranoid enough’). However, some of the things that have been done in the past do suggest that those in power in America do not always reflect the honourable and moral stance of the average American. It seems that attempts were made to reduce the number of 'trailer park trash' (or perhaps I misunderstood the general gist of what this 'trash' comprised'! One of the most alarming of the Elite's doctrines is that of eugenics - controlling human reproduction in order to reduce the number of those that the Elite perceive as inferior to create a 'master race' with 'desirable' genetic characteristics. Eugenics had its highest public profile in Nazi Germany but the policies began a long time before Hitler and are continuing to the present day. Dr Claude Nash Herndon (president of the Eugenics Society in 1953), in an interview in 1990 for the book George Bush, The Unauthorised Biography stated: "…IQ tests were run on all the children in the Winston-Salem School system. Only the ones who scored really low [were targeted for sterilisation], the real bottom of the barrel, like below 70. Did we do sterilisations on young children? Yes. This was a relatively minor operation…It was usually not [done] until the child was eight or ten years old. For the boys, you just make an incision and tie the tube…We more often performed the operations on girls than with boys. Of course, you have to cut open the abdomen, but again, it is relatively minor." I don't suggest that this sort of thing is still going on in the USA, but I do think it's worth considering that the 'power behind the scenes' people who would condone this sort of, morally reprihensible, experiment on their own people would not think twice about experimenting on 'terrorists'! Mind you, I admit that a lot of water has passed under the bridge in the intervening years..... still it makes you wonder...

Sun, 2004-05-16 21:42

#12

Teacher

Alluded. "Eluded" is vastly different.

Sun, 2004-05-16 21:55

#13

Teacher

There's no wonder I'm retching.

Sun, 2004-05-16 21:56

#14

Teaching Assistant

wretching

Sun, 2004-05-16 23:59

#15

stormy

1. l and Shacks. The term 'trailer park trash' was not something of my invention ... it is a term commonly used in the USA (I thought) and so I cannot come up with a British equivalent because we do not have such a term - so far as I am aware. Do you remember the Olympic ice-skating scandel from a few years back which involved a female American skater (I forget her name)? She was referred to as trailer park trash and I have seen/heard the term used many times in books/films. Last week, I read a column - written by an American incidentally - in which the girl in the US photo's was described as tpt , hence my use of the term. I've always thought of it as a denigratory term for a certain type of American: Female, white, very thick, redneck. Don't try and pull me up on some perceived 'ism' just because you guys are way behind the times on colloquial American slang. 2. The reason I didn't think Shack's post made any good points or excuses for this vile behaviour is that the perpetrators are not front line troops. They are prison warders. They probably even live within the prison confines and face less risk to their lives than we do when crossing the road/ driving our cars.

Mon, 2004-05-17 00:02

#16

stormy

sorry, I edited my post and it seems to have gone wrong. The missing opening part is Kar l and shacks. Also, "wretching" eh? New one on me.

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:22

#17

Mykle

Oh, shit, in for a penny.... George Bush is a major voice in the eugenics movement and is surrounded by like-minded people - Boyden Gray (his legal advisor) and William Draper III (head of fund-raising for his 1980 presidential campaign). Draper's grandfather had unsuccessfully urged eugenics policies on Eisenhower before convincing Johnson to adopt them. In 1969 Bush was involved in hearings into the 'dangers of too many black babies' and when he became ambassador to the UN in 1972 he arranged for the Association of Voluntary Surgical Contraception (formerly the Sterilisation League) to extend its policy of sterilising young children with 'low' IQ to non-white countries. This was further extended when Bush became president in 1988.

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:25

#18

mississippi

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wed, 2004-05-19 00:27

#19

Mykle

Well, I expect that price on my head has been suitably increased, George.

Tue, 2004-05-18 13:30

#20

faithless

I'd like to copyright the term " trailer park sheesh" meaning the convoluted intellectual cul-de-sac associated with sub-sub-subculture demarcations. if that's okay with you lot.

Mon, 2004-05-17 01:56

#21

faithless

That skater was tonya harding. Years ago i shot a documentary about a guy who had spent fifty years building church organs, he was an interesting subject, as much for the forthright way he spoke as he was for the amazing instruments that he had built.. ..during the second world war he worked at home, in an engineering shop, during the final stages of the war he was called up, and sent to germany. He joined the victorious british troops. His tales (on camera) of the atrocities committed by british and american troops, against the german population and soldiers, were horrifying. He returned home a broken man, traumatised by what he had witnessed at the hands of his own army. He described it as shocking, emphasising that the perpetrators were " the kind of lads that you worked with ", he returned to england brutalised and broken by what he had witnessed. In one instance a small group of english soldiers had terrified and rampaged through a perfectly innocent village, staging mock firing squads and worse. The stories were actually too horrible to use in this documentary, which was depressing, but it was not a documentary on the obscenity of war. I was left in no doubt by his story that the perpetrators were in the minority, but were supported by their line of command, and that also there were many many soldiers who could never forget what they had seen. I think it's very important to remember that soldiers are not one indivisible body, but that there will be many differing stories emerging from this war for many years to come, and i think it's only when we have experienced these stories that we should begin to claim some kind of relevant knowledge.

Mon, 2004-05-17 09:03

#22

mississippi

>> They are prison warders << I don't think so, Colin. I don't remember any prison warders being called up for foreign service, I think you'll find they are just some of the troops sent out initially to fight the war and now the fighting has, in the main, subsided they have been transferred to 'warder' duties. They are still soldiers that have been in the thick of it. I'm not excusing anyone but the trauma of war affects some people worse than others, and the 'gang' mentality has the effect of reducing many people to the lowest level of human behaviour.

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:22

#23

Mykle

I just thought that I ought to point out that there is no slur, deliberate or inferred, on the American people as a whole. Not just Don & Denver, but all the posters that I know to be ‘from the other side of the pond’ who appear to be extremely decent, moral people and, just like we are in the UK (well mostly), largely ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes, and certainly not responsible for many of the things that our governments do quietly in the back-ground in the name of the common good. I don’t suggest that eugenics is still being practiced in the US but I do argue that any political structure that would allow such ‘questionable’ techniques would not baulk at filming terrorist torture techniques and the subsequent effects they have on the subject. I seek to further point out that I’m a heck of a lot more ratted than my spell checker would suggest. I have, in no way, meant to express anything but admiration for the people of the United States and any condemnation is meant for those few, immoral, bigoted, self important, megalomaniacs who, rely on the fact that you can fool most of the people most of the time. Give me a break chaps, I’m drunk and I’m trying to be sincere! I am quite certain that Colin is LHAO :)

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:25

#24

Emma Felicity

u got to work tomorrow , Mykle? See even I am abbreviating.

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:29

#25

Mykle

Oh, shit, the good news is that i had only smoked six cigarettes, not eight - right, I'm going to smoke the seventh now. (I smoke in the bathroom with the door closed and the window open so the fumes will not pollute the whole place). Good night all...

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:41

#26

Emma Felicity

nite

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:47

#27

Mykle

Luckily, not a problem for me Em, I'm retired (hopefully). Not quite as ancient as the 'Haystack', but I’m hoping that my investments will see my through.... I’m cheap to run - not that a few grand from a Missi con would go astray:) * let’s work on what sort of evidence would content George of my demise * [%sig%]

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:49

#28

Mykle

nite.

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:54

#29

Mykle

Sgt. Sam Provance (302 Military Intelligence) is now alleging that the abuse is far more wide-spread than commonly admitted. Obviously more to come on this issue!

Wed, 2004-05-19 01:56

#30

Emma Felicity

oh dear... nite.

Wed, 2004-05-19 07:26

#31

Liana

Oh what utter rubbish...

Wed, 2004-05-19 09:06

#32

mississippi

Mykle, your regular defence of your brainless rantings by claiming to be pissed doesn't wash. It's no more credible than Stephy's apologies along the same lines. If you KNOW you are going to make a twat of yourself through drink the simple answer is either don't drink or don't post. I tend to think that anyone over 20 that gets pissed regularly or for 'fun' has an underdeveloped personality. Or maybe so many social problems they have to zonk out to deal with them. In your case I believe you are a schoolboy trapped in an ageing head. Perhaps some evening classes would help?

Wed, 2004-05-19 09:21

#33

Emma Felicity

You are his evening classes, Missi, come on wake up to your responsibilities.

Wed, 2004-05-19 11:32

#34

faithless

"Sgt. Sam Provance (302 Military Intelligence) is now alleging that the abuse is far more wide-spread than is commonly admitted" so. An individual called sergeant sam. Alleges. that something is far more wide spread. according to common admissions. who is this? what is he saying? who is conveying this to us? what role did the media play in creating this statement? okay. well that leaves no room for doubt then. sheesh. i expect that sargeant sam was the only sucker that the press could manipulate into saying something that they had already decided would make a juicy headline.

Wed, 2004-05-19 12:37

#35

andrew pack

Agree with Faithless on this one - if the best source the press could come up with was a Sergeant and then fudged the quote that badly, they are scraping the barrel a bit. I'm not sure they need WORSE stuff to come out, other than the media's urgent shark-like desire to keep moving forward at all times - fresh stuff is always more compelling than actually looking at what has happened. What they could do is actually engage in a debate on the issues that these photographs raise. For example, to what extent was the American humiliations of prisoners linked to Cheney and Rumsfeld saying that these were 'illegal combatants' rather than POWs - and on what authority is someone an 'illegal combatant' anyway? If you declare war on a country, or start bombing and invading it, in my view any member of that country is fully entitled to wage war against you - sure, they run their chances of getting killed in the war, but you can't strip them of their Geneva Convention rights just because they were fighting for what you believe is the wrong side. (And yes, I'm well aware that certain Arabic extremists have carried out far worse attrocities; but I think the flouting of the Geneva Convention is very troubling and carries pretty huge implications for any British or American troops captured in the future. These actions, even if maverick, give the green light to torture and humiliation of anyone captured in combat. ) There was a neat piece in the Observer the other week - posing the Doestoyevsky question - if you could remove all suffering in the world, simply by authorising the torture of an innocent child, would you? And moving on from there, to say, what if the victim wasn't innocent, and what if they knew of a impending plot to kill thousands of people - would you approve of torture then, to get the information? I have to say, even as a liberal, that gave me some qualms. But I don't believe the US were torturing the Iraqi prisoners for information, but in some misguided belief that (a) Iraq was responsible for 9-11 (after all, someone did it and someone has to pay, and Afghanistan was a deeply unsatisfying war, they just laid down and cried 'We submit' before we'd really worked off our aggression) or (b) that the enemy is so dehumanised that it doesn't really matter.

Mon, 2004-05-17 18:14

#36

stormy

no no no no no and no. completely and utterly wrong. The USA has been rotating troops in and out of iraq for best part of a year. I think they do that so as to try and avoid the situation you all seem to think has happened - battle weary troops taking it out on prisoners. There is no way they are going to use highly trained combat troops to guard a cell. Don't forget people do different jobs within an army. Not every man/woman fights! Have you not heard of army cooks, chaplains, mechanics, desk wallahs, drivers, and ... get this ... the Military Police? Guess what they do? Yes, correct, they police the army and work as prison warders if some-one is in the nick. I mean, look at the barracks at colchester. A whole prison for naughty Brit soldiers. Anyway, I digress. The soldiers who are under investigation come from a reserve military police unit that served in iraq when the pictures were taken and ARE NOT FUCKING COMBAT TROOPS! Christ, if only some of you would read the news properly then threads such as this load of bollox would not happen.

Sat, 2004-05-15 15:55

#37

Karl Wiggins

Well written, Shack, you make a good point. I've never been to war and at my age presume that I never will, but I imagine that if I caught hold of a little sod who'd been trying to kill me, maybe even shot a couple of my mates, the bizarreness of the situation, so far from civilization, may cause me to act in a way that I wouldn't normally do. It's my opinion that living on your nerves 24/7 would do this to you. I'm not trying to justify the rapes, for I believe that's inexcusable, even if the woman was a suicide bomber attempting to kill dozens of my buddies, but the soldiers photographed with tribal Maori face painting raping captured women will no doubt go on to lead quite ordinary lives. In my opinion, they won't get "a taste for it." I certainly hope not anyway. No, I believe they'll go on to become accountants, truck drivers, printers, even lawyers, putting behind them the horrors of war, and not even believing that they actually did anything wrong. I believe they did, for how many women prisoners are being raped and not photographed? However, if I did get hold of that little sod who'd maybe shot a couple of my mates, I'm sure I would find a great deal of humour in making him stand there with a pair of woman's knickers over his head. Christ, it's not that bad, is it? Stormy, I notice that you still haven't offered your interpretation of the British version of "trailer park trash." My brother-in-law lives in a trailer in Montana and I'd be interested to hear your comparison of living accommodation in this country.

Sat, 2004-05-15 16:05

#38

Jeff Prince

I guess it's not where you live but who you are and what you do that defines a person as "trash". There are lots of horrible people as well as nice people living in the finest accommodation and vice versa. Ultimately, though, is any living person really "trash"? It's too easy to generalise and adopt the media's lazy stereotypes.

Mon, 2004-05-17 19:26

#39

Karl Wiggins

Let me see if I can get to grips with what you're trying to say here, Stormy: You claim that Trailer Park Trash are "Female, white, very thick, redneck." Is that the gist of it? Hmmmmm

Sat, 2004-05-15 16:19

#40

Karl Wiggins

You tell me. Stormy asserts that she comes from "trash" background.

Mon, 2004-05-17 19:37

#41

Nurse

Better to lose the bet than the plot.

Mon, 2004-05-17 19:39

#42

mississippi

'.....and the storm was a storming and .... ' Calm down Colin, you'll have apoplexy at this rate. It ain't worth starting a war over, now is it?

Sat, 2004-05-15 16:26

#43

Jeff Prince

In my opinion, no.

Sat, 2004-05-15 16:28

#44

mississippi

It doesn't take a genius to work out that those taking part, and living in a theatre of war obviously have different priorities and objectives to those sitting in their comfy armchair in Berkshire. I can imagine that a guy who is being shot at 24/7, who sees the remnants of his mates plastered all over the street and maybe even himself, isn't exactly going to offer the person that did it a fag and a pint whilst they decide what the next move is. I too have never fought in a war and I also abhor all violence but I'm realistic enough to know that sometimes there's no choice. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case where Iraq was concerned but for the soldiers ordered out there it most certainly WAS the case. So having been despatched to a foreign land with a gun in your hand it soon becomes obvious that you kill or be killed. This has the effect of focusing the mind on survival and all normal sensibilities and behaviour go out the window. It's grossly unfair for those of us sitting at home to judge those in danger. It's also unfair to pass judgement on the behaviour that prevails in those isolated conditions. The likes of Mykle that spew out the garbage ideology of the righteous have probably never had as much as a slap in the face from an angry spouse, let alone scraped the intestines of their friend off a pavement. Whether the war was right or wrong is in this case, immaterial. There IS a war, there ARE people dying in awful circumstances, and those there do what they feel, whether it is dictated by orders, laws or just the fear of imminent death looming over them. How many of you critics would be civilised in the same circumstances? I also notice that those that were so anti-everybody when those faked pictures (something I believed from the outset, not because I didn't believe the soldiers capable of such acts, but because the 'victims' looked anything other than victims) were printed in the Mirror, have kept quiet and not admitted their mistake in believing everything derogatory because it suits their case.

Mon, 2004-05-17 19:40

#45

Teaching Assistant

wretching = going about like a wretch lol

Sat, 2004-05-15 17:09

#46

Karl Wiggins

I've had this conversation before. I had a mate who'd been in the French Foreign Legion and was an ex-mercenary. I argued with him about the atrocities of war, but he put me firmly in my place. "Karl," he said, "When you've found pieces of your best mate lying all over the place, when you find his hand, a hand you last saw holding a pack of cards, just lying on the floor, and you bend down and take his wedding ring off for his wife, when you can't find his head, when ..... ah, fuck!" With tears in his eyes, "Don't tell me about treating the enemy in a humane way! You know fuck all! You slot them! End of!" He was right, I was wrong. I shouldn't judge a man until I've walked a couple of moons in his army boots.

Sat, 2004-05-15 17:19

#47

donignacio

In the Midwestern U.S. (as I understand it), if you're "trailer park trash" (or, as it's shortened-to around these parts, "trailer trash"), it does very much carry the connotation that you are white.

Sat, 2004-05-15 17:40

#48

Karl Wiggins

And if you're a porch monkey?

Sat, 2004-05-15 18:53

#49

donignacio

I've never heard of that!

Sat, 2004-05-15 20:36

#50

mississippi

Me neither, I drive a Volvo.

Fri, 2004-05-14 00:25

#51

stormy

1. the english photo's are about to be proved as fakes 2. the girl in the yank photo's is from trailer park trash city. She should have been better supervised. 3. i take it all is quiet on uka tonight.

Pages

Topic locked