unattractive

"Hen, don't you think that a lot of women will use men rather than be used. I've seen it happen many times before and they are afraid to get hurt." Unfortunately, you can't have your cake and eat it. You can only use people for a short length of time before you get into that area of gender warfare where men and women compete for complete control of the relationship. At some point that attitude will scare off the kind of man who wants equal footing in a relationship, and invite the sort who fancies a challenge. You've got to choose between war and cooperation, essentially, and some women (some men, undoubtedly, also,) act like they like war when what they really want is cooperation. And they do that, as you say, because they're afraid that if they act like they want cooperation, they will be seen as weak and easily defeated. It's just like countries indulging in macho posturing because they don't want to be seen as weak, even though they don't have the weaponry to win a war.

We took the family to Bangkok and Pattaya a few years ago; Pattaya was wild with girlie bars everywhere - if they have pink lighting and more barmaids than beer taps then beer's only a side line - we tended to go out as a family group which was more for my safety than anyone else's as a man by himself would be constantly approached by prostitutes, at least in the downtown areas. Nonetheless one enterprising lady tried to sell me a girl, plus one for my older son and a "nice young man" for Debbie ... There was the "Porn Hotel" which my friends in Bangkok said was probably not what I thought, unlike the "Love Hotel" and the "Honey Hotel". Brothels tended to have pictures of girls and their rooms on display boards; one S+M establishment wasn't leaving anything to chance and had a painted frieze around the building showing naked men being chased by dominatrices ... this was next to a supermarket and a children's playground. If you're broadminded and can let all this pass you by, it was a superb holiday for eating out (very hygienic!) and the kids loved Bangkok. I recommend Thailand.

'Not so much a turn-off, but what sends me running a mile is the impression that the girl in question has had many boyfriends, and is very casual - almost callous - in their relationships.' 'The impression that'? 'Almost callous'? Jon, pardon me, but that sounds like it's totally your problem, not any potential girlfriend's. It sounds as if you're after a lock - a sure thing. If there's any implication that she might not be utterly infatuated with you, or that she might have you at a disadvantage emotionally, you flee because - one might argue - you're a wimp, and need someone who'll preen your ego. I'm reading between the lines, of course.

Yah - you may well have noticed I have a tendency to get very cut up over even the briefest of failed romances. Ergo, backing away from those lasses who take pride in getting through a man a month seems like a very reasonable survival system. As you've pointed out yourself, having one of the pair at an 'emotional disadvantage' from the offset is not a healthy start. I would like, as I say, to be on equal footing, or else, yes, flee, because there are plenty of equal footings in the sea. There is, of course, no such thing as a 'sure thing', but I do like to limit myself to prospective relationships that stand a snowball's chance in hell of lasting more than the aforementioned month.

I think people often call other people liars just because they don't have the same view point and are too self righteous or fucked up to try and communicate properly.

There are operas where the music and the drama go together really well, like Katya Kabanova by Janacek (my favourite opera composer), Blond Eckbert by Judith Weir, Greek by Mark Anthony Turnage, and Wozzek by Alban Berg. Then there are operas that are just beautiful to listen to, like The Rake's Progress by Stravinsky, Bluebeard's Castle by Bartok, and Julio Cesare by Handel. I'm not mad on Italian opera, I admit, but I'm into my verismo - for example, Cavelleria Rusticana by Mascagni and La Fanciulla del West by Puccini: gorgeous. (Not into Mozart, Rossini, Donizetti, and most of Verdi. And I loathe Wagner.) If you don't like classical music, then fair enough. But if you like classical music but not opera, then you may be missing out. d.beswetherick.

Blimey Snap, if I was feeling even the remotest paranoia I might be tempted to take that personally. Luckily I'm not.

I think Snaphappy was referring to Katrina who seems to think that life is lived in black and white. She can only hurt herself thinking like that.

Can never get into opera. I find it completely over the top. The singing is the equivalent of outlandishly long guitar solos that were obligatory for 1970s rock bands. Like classical music, though. Neil, I bet your older son was going, 'Go on dad, do the right thing.' I first went to paris when I was seventeen and I was walking along Monmartre (spelling?) and this woman stopped me and was chatting. Her English wasn't the best, but certainly better than my (do you know the way to the swimming pool?) French. I couldn't get what she was saying at the end so I wished her all the best, told her I enjoyed talking and walked to catch up with my friend, Chris. He was some way ahead actually. "You see, people are so friendly here," I said. "It's so much better than England." "She was a prostitute," said Chris. I hadn't twigged at all. The word naive springs to mind. [%sig%]

"what it's worth Jon, I think your biggest problem is that you are still a boy with absolutely no personality." Seems clear you've projected your own problem onto me. I don't know how you've managed it, Missi, but you've reached a grand old age and still not grown out of a 16 year old's mentality. In lew of actual wisdom, you toss around cliches and insults, promising me I will 'learn' to agree with them when I'm older. Unlikely. For my part, I don't *try* to be intellectual. I know well that intellectuals do not go down well among those who consider themselves 'ordinary blokes'. It's the last thing I'd want to come across as. That you think anything I write is even remotely 'pseudo-intellectual' shows how even the slightest whiff of an opposing viewpoint threatens you, and needs to be sectioned off. A view expressed even half as fiercely as you express your own, muddle, inconsistent views merits the charge of 'arrogance'. To turn your AJ line around, let me tell you that those people who rile you so much - Chant, Sirat, and Greco too - are wiser, more grown up and more sensible than you'll ever be, and ever have been. Although I'll admit that you're capable of dragging Greco down to your level when he lets his guard down. And of course your friends will leap to defend you. That's what they're there for. Stick with them, and don't even try to converse with the rest of the world. And Liana - you can take your charge of misogyny and stuff it down your burning bra.

I cant bear opera, but love a lot of classical music. It's not for want of trying though, really. It's like celery. Some things are just best given up forever.

OH, bes!!! Finally a person of culture... I am a music grad who did an opera masters...hehehe! Your taste matches mine very closely... I wrote my dissert on dream symbolism in 20thC opera. So glad to read your post, so that the uncultured sods on here know I'm not the only person here who can appreciate warbling, lol.

I went to visit some one who had been held on a section in a secure unit, (for his own safety). As i walked through the security doors in the building, this block stopped me and asked if i was Jesus. 'I had an orange beard and farley long hare at the time'. I told him that i was not Jesus, but he in insisted that i was. After 10 or 15 mint's of this, i just wanted to get on and so i told him Yes, I am Jesus. He said abruptly, No you're not! You're a F***ing lier, Jesus was crucified thousands of years ago..

hahahahaha - tell me John, which prison was this..?

Very adult dearie... everytime you strive so earnestly to show how far above everyone you are you let yourself down with a fatuous comment such as that. No, I know how you adore to have the last word, so - be my guest and take as much of the space below you like. I wont be wasting anymore time reading the poutingly huffy words of a silly little boy with sexual and emotional inadequacies. Oops, I did it too.

Blimey I came over all petulant there, it was a bit strong, sorry. It was Katrinas and also Stephens original post that made me put it though. I thought Stephen was actually judging Liana, which is a bit ironic. But then I don't know the history... Think I'll step out now, go and reflect on that 'think before you speak' maxim. :)

Hen, I must interject here, briefly, and say that Liana is anything but narrow-minded, believe me. She is open to understanding anything, which is why she's bothered to engage with you in this argument as much as she has. There is such a wide spectrum when it comes to different people's perceptions about human relationships, alsorts of hidden factors come into play and self-awareness is particularly important to a successful encounter. While I think Liana has pushed the boat out to try to understand where you are coming from, you don't appear to understand your own motivations and drives well enough...as I don't feel you are fully self-aware emotionally (forget intellectually). Herein lies the difference between you and Liana... Try to know yourself better, Hen...then you may be in a better position to engage with a serious debate of depth.

Hi Emma. It was was a secure unit for mainly schizophrenic, but some who had been sectioned against there will for varies things. On that same visit Emma, a really well dressed block came up to me and some others that were with me, politely asked if we would like something to drink. Of course we all said yes pleas, thinking how nice the staff are. whilst drinking my cupa, a member of staff arrived, asked who made the drinks and informed us that this particular block was sectioned for trying to poison his family. I literally choked whilst spluttering the tea from my mouth. What a dope i felt! How are you em.

There is absolutlely nothing about you sonny that threatens me. Nothing from your childish feelings of superiority to your rather feminine appearance. As Liana says, you're a silly boy with sexual and emotional problems. they are also exacerbated by a sense of superiority that is so misplaced it's laughable. As for you buddies on UK, I think they are twats and your assessment of either them or me has not the slightest significance in my world. I think if personality was a yardstick to be measured by, you wouldn't be within a mile of myself nor most of the grown-ups I know.

oh, great, thanks John...prison staff can be so teasing.

Yha! I know.. Tell you what though, this place was run like a prison and i think the patients wer in charge. I spoke to several Psychiatrist who turned out to be patients.

tofu. celery. fake tan. opera.

Speaking as a woman who has "had more men than hot dinners" I have to say I find that statement and the supposition that such a woman could be faithful only surprisingly, a bit distasteful. From my perspective if youre interested, I reckon it's to do with tolerance. As i get older I am less willing to put up with certain things than some women are. Bad hygeine? Drop the latch on your way to the chemist sweetheart. Bad manners? See you. Unreliable, dishonest, dull? *waves* Some women have a low tolerance level from a young age. Good for them.

I was thinking about this and opera makes me angry. Which can't be right, can it? [%sig%]

oooer, can we ever meet, Marc? hehehe er...are you coming to the London do?

It's nice to see the intellectual and emotionally mature setting such a fine example of calm, measured, thoughtful, unbiased posts to those they disagree with. It's so nice to finally see a thread without any element of hypocrisy ;o)

angry? it makes me murderous. i think its perfectly normal.

opera is one of those things i dont get at all ... and is one of the things that i think is liked by people who are more grown up than me ... much as i felt about olives when i was about 17 ... there are things liked by people which are just unbelievable ... like tripe ... or motor racing ... and these do not have the effect of making me feel terribly inferior and clumsy ... and then there are all those sophisticated things ... truffles and opera ... french literature ... current affairs ... and these make me feel like an overlarge teenager at a cocktail party who has just knocked something over with the swing of an inelegent handbag ...

Hey, it takes all sorts to make a world. ;-)

Tripe!..*Brings back bad memory's of growing up in Glasgow and my Gran's Sunday cooking* Yuk! Hate it.. Now, Truffle coated Tripe, whilst taking in some opera? Nope! Still hate it..

I think I may have meant couch. Weird typo, as the 'n' is nowhere near the 'u'.

Hi Em, if we ever did meet it seems we'd have plenty to disagree about! As for the ABC bash, while I'm sure it'll be great, I can't go. Loads of work stuff to do, unfortunately. I had initially hoped to be on holiday... I did go to the last ABC london event, which was an eye opener, and good fun. From what I gather any forthcoming ABC events (assuming they happen) will be up north, and I don't really do the north unless I have to. I'm one of those who stongly believes the only decent place in England is London and the rest of the country is either for a scenic visit or something you pass through very quickly on the way to an airport. A flaw, I know. Opera, I see i'm not alone. The extremely camp water fountains and statues you find in shopping centres completely baffle me as well, but I suppose that's a bit different. [%sig%]

Well, I liked opera when I was a kid. I had a tape of Wozzek when I was thirteen and drove my parents round the bend with it.

Since you don't have an email address Em, I'm posting this in case you hadn't heard: An opera will be staged for the first time at Glastonbury tonight (Saturday) when the English National Opera will perform Richard Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries".

So, you don't have to be grown up. I'm not.

How would someone like you know how to recognise them Mykle?

*smiles at snap* Dont worry chick... and theres no history between stephen and me, trust me.

Oh, I know, thanks, Mykle...but I'm not a Wagner fan! I'm sitting here plugged into Richard Strauss's 'Four Last Songs' and rolling my eyes back in ecstasy. *gasps and sighs*

Perhaps you just got it upside down. God forbid!

I don't think there's a future either! :)

Don't see what toleration's got to do with it. If you don't like bad hygeine, bad manners etc. don't go out with them! Going steady with a man *then* deciding that he isn't anything near suitable suggests exactly the opposite of high standards. Shouldn't you give the merchandise at least a cursory inspection before purchasing? If that's how you get through the day though, tis your business. All I said was that women who give me the impression they get through men very quickly are likely to quell any interest *I* might have, because, as I said, I don't want to put any effort into something that will in all likelihood not last very long. You may well claim it has nothing to do with their ability to commit, but that's beside the point - if I feel that I might have to put in time and energy, only to be dumped because I say the wrong thing occasionally, or because I do something in the wrong way, or just because she gets bored quickly, then f.uck that for a game of billiards. I don't even make a conscious decision - I just know such women have, in the past, utterly silenced any murmur of interest I might have had in them, and that I prefer it that way. In all likelihood, they probably do too; I have appalling manners.

Why are men so HUFFY, God anyone would think football was IMPORTANT.

How DOES one have sex with a recording, Emma? Do you find it attractive?

Ha ha!

How proud you must be.

Don't start pesky........................................... LMAO

And what do you mean it suggests the exact opposite of high standards? Thats balls... a lot of people - men AND women, put up with things that drive them round the bend out of sheer laziness. Lately, women don't have to do that so much - they can manage nicely on their own thanks very much. Gone are the days when we had to cling on for a dinner ticket. It sounds to me that rather than accept the responsibility for women dumping you after a short while as being a fault of your own, you just write it off as them being the ones with personality flaws. Jesus lord above.

Rokkitnite, Bill Clinton thought so too... Experience will tell you that there is always an emotional cost to intimate human relations... and sex is powerfully amongst the top in that list... Not always obvious at the time (esp if you are one to trivialise human experiences)... however it does chip away at your emotional center as many people (esp women) who indulged in indiscriminate sex whilst younger will now tell you... To get to Hen's original point, I too would find women who trivialised their past sexual encounters unattractive... for me it would give me a window into their self worth. Where we perhaps differ, is that I acknowledge that there are women fully in control of their sexuality and who have indulged in numerous sexual encounters... frankly because they like shagging and have had/created the opportuinities (even one night stands can be meaningful)... To me this would not necessarily be offputting, in some cases, may even make them more attractive in my eyes... Its quality and not quantity.... some lucky people do have both.

I find it very unattractive when a girl has used excrement to simulate a fulsome ochre beard.