unattractive

ooooooh, Justyn - I've been to Chiang Mai and the Golden Triangle... yes, reliable is vital... I mean, what's the point of having a secret lover if they don't turn up on time? Reliable just sounds like a boring attribute, but... god it's so important - in fact, it can be utterly sexy. I mean, ain't it good if you can be sure someone's going to be there...to give you what you need... ;-)

it seems to me that hen is wise to find those sort of girls unattractive ... after all they are not going to be forming queues outside his room in halls ... it is very sensible indeed for a person to recognise their own strengths and play on them ... a hen who wished for a series of shallow one night stands with women likely to brag about it afterwards would be one disappointed hen ... no offence intended hen ... i am just pointing out the sense of being attracted towards people who are likely to be attracted back ... (and btw ... the phrase High Maintenance Sluts made me hoot for days ...)

I *am* scared of rejection. Why? Because it makes me feel like crap, obviously. Because I'm *not* the kind of arrogant little minstrel who can walk away from a break-up thinking it was entirely the other person's fault. And I'm not big-headed - nay, stupid - enough to think that if a person makes a habit of ploughing through partners, I'm the one to change all that. What you're basically accusing me of, Liana, is not thinking I'm up to it. Well, jeez, am I ever sorry, but that's how I feel about myself. That's how a *lot* of people feel about themselves. So the people we allow ourselves to fall for are, more commonly, those who seem kind and forgiving, rather than high-maintenance sluts. There are plenty of those sort of people around, you know, and for me, it isn't a case of confidence versus meekness, but arrogance versus modesty. I don't keep many of the promiscuous kind as friends either - male, or female. They're generally self-absorbed and boring. And *that* is their fault. I would much, much, much, much, much rather be with the kind of girls I end up with than any other. They aren't weak, and they don't pamper me with compliments all the time - but neither are they trying their best to wrestle control of the relationship, and appear all-powerful and confident. What pisses me off most is that for me, this is about people. Doesn't matter whether they're men or women. But for *you*, this is about women winning the gender war. Why else make cryptic references to dinner tickets, or suggest that I'm scared of all women? You *want* to see women using men, rejecting men, not tolerating men, because it satisfies your sense of revenge. You have absolutely no sympathy with the men at all, whichever side of the equation they're on - it's *their* fault if they feel they're ugly, useless and dull, and it's their fault as well if they make women feel ugly, useless and dull. I find that kind of attitude reprehensible in both men and women. What you also can't accept (reading between the lines,) is that having had more men doesn't make you more desirable to everyone. You can't accept that the less promiscuous members of the human race might actually enjoy each other's company, rather than secretly dwelling on how dull they all are and wishing they could join your glamorous ranks. I suppose you'll reply with a dismissive quip. Missi - I do try to set very few limits. But if you don't like a certain type of person, you don't like them. I mean, are you suggesting I go out with townies? I already look for honesty, loyalty and caring, but I think it's wrong to go out with someone you aren't attracted to, just because they're the only option. I *have* to be attracted to them, in every which way, and that ain't something I have a great deal of control over. God, this is all giving me a headache. And delaying my journey.

Hen, I ran onto this thread and started reading down and about 3 days later when I finished I was as curious as when I started. I honestly thought you were gay by looking at your picture. I would have bet money on that fact. Goes to prove, you can't judge a Hen by its feathers, I suppose.

Bollocks... I like men. I have no gender war to fight, and i make refernce to dinner tickets simply because i am a woman, and that is how its been for us in the past. Its about time you learned that love and adoration isnt a given, life isnt like Dawsons Creek, you cant get by on a charming smile and the belief that you are the most adorable specimen on the face of the planet... you have to work at being a decent and desirable person, and stomping your foot and dismissing women as slappers is immature and ridiculous. Dismissive enough for you? Take a count on how many people have agreed with my sentiments... you come across as a pompous arrogant pillock. If women dont like you, it is NOT always their fault. Grow up, idiot.

"How very true George - I was actually going to ask Hen if he required a typed personal life CV from every woman he meets - there is no such thing as perfection we all have flaws" What in God's name has this got to do with *anything* I've said?!? Of course I don't require a personal life CV. I just don't like to involve myself with promiscuous women! It's as simple as that! This is some kind of hilarious farce. I mention *one* thing about women that I find a turn-off, and you all start acting like I'm Mr. Demanding. Are you all really that emotionally vulnerable? That you find the idea of a man who has the tiniest modicum of something verging on standards completely threatening? Honesty, evidently, is the biggest turn-off. Let's get this straight - I don't have a problem with relationships. I live with my ex - we're very great friends, and we talk about things when we need to. I was the one who instigated the split. I'm now going out with someone else who is a very lovely person. Both of these girls have had various previous boyfriends - they just don't rattle on about them all the time, or take pride in their 'score'. I have fallen for quite a few women in the past who've rejected me, and it hurt - in other words, I've let myself be hurt where I thought the woman was worth it. Some women, to my mind, aren't worth it. This includes the kind who bang on about the number of boyfriends they've had. That question, Pi, would be more appropriately addressed to Liana, except she would ask for the CV a short while *after* she's met them.... Jesus. Now the next train isn't til 2.20 and there's 3 changes.

>> ...You have absolutely no sympathy with the men at all, whichever side of the equation they're on ... << Well I can tell you know nothing at all about Liana, she has been the most sympathetic and supportive woman it's been my good fortune to befriend in a long long time, never judgemental of me unlike some. >> ...I *have* to be attracted to them, in every which way... << Perhaps you should consider that YOU have to be attractive to THEM also, a condition you seem to have overlooked. Have you ever studied yourself looking for faults? If you have found some, have you dismissed them as unimportant? Jon, this world isn't about YOU, though I accept that your world might be. What the hell is a 'townie', and why are they anathema to you?

hahahahahah

Oh Hen.. you really do need to take a look at your language. Sluts??? Why so misogynistic? And there you go again with your exasperation that everybody cant SEEEE your POINNNT. We can. You are wrong. Thank you, goodnight.

As I've said before, a terrible slut is someone who does a poor job of being a slut, which is otherwise a perfectly honorable avocation in my view. Of course, what I really need are names and telephone numbers, not statistics. *joke alert*

This now qualifies as the most infuriating thread I have *ever* taken part in. No one's actually listening to/reading what I've said. Instead, you're just making up some imaginary Hen who you can batter down. "Its about time you learned that love and adoration isnt a given, life isnt like Dawsons Creek, you cant get by on a charming smile and the belief that you are the most adorable specimen on the face of the planet... " Straw doll arguments. I've never thought that life is like Dawson's Creek. Hate that show. I have just, in my last post but one, admitted I often feel inadequate. I don't expect love or adoration from anyone, and am very grateful - often bemused- when I get it. It takes a mustering of effort for me to express any kind of liking for a girl, because I often don't see how they could feel the same way about me. I have to brace myself for a possible rejection occasionally. "If women dont like you, it is NOT always their fault." Yeah, I know. When women don't like me, and make it very clear they don't like me, I worry about what's wrong with me. I get self-conscious and miserable. Especially women I like or have no problem with. I won't say it happens a lot, but it does happen here and there. But we're not talking about women who don't like me, are we? We're talking about women I don't like. And these would be the kind who brag about their promiscuity. Often because it goes hand in hand with them being generally arrogant, and because they make me feel like I would have to be some kind of superhuman to stand any chance with them. I don't think I'm a superhuman, so it's another reason to back off. These kind of women are, fortunately, a minority. It's just laughable that you're only way of making a stand in this argument is to paint me up as some kind of womanising rogue, when I'm almost the opposite - awkward around girls I like, and often liable to put an emotional stake into something I won't get anything out of. I am *very* easily won over, and find a great deal that is attractive in most of the girls I get to know. But if I didn't have some things I didn't like, my head would explode from being in love with everyone. So one of the things I don't like is promiscuity - a callous attitude towards relationships. Fortunately, very few of the girls I've met are like this.

I can't stand jealous - I think its the most unattractive - unwanted and unnecessary thing going - and comes a close second to someone who puts other's down continually ...

Jessica. 077255632. He's a nice block and only charges £20 hr.

Jon ... This thread is irritating you, because people arent in agreement. Guess what - lifes is like that.

Snobs, bigots, people with very firm opinions based on very wobbly information. Not fond of people in shorts - they make everyone look like Lofty in It Ain't Half Hot, Mum. Liars and people who are untrustworthy. People who arrive late. Foodies and people who like opera - for some reason they always seem to be the same people. People who vote Conservative - and possibly Labour these days. People who are obsessed with fashion and their appearance. Men with Abe Lincoln beards, also people who wear socks with their sandals - usually the same people again. People who insist on telling you that they never watch television. Like, who cares? That's a start, anyway.

Missi - townies are the young people who hang around in towns and break things. You know, like in your poem 'Essex Girl'. Liana's problem is that while she is undoubtedly good to her male friends, in any given problematic situation where there is a theoretical man and a theoretical woman, she has no sympathy with the man. There is really no need to try to get me to dwell on whether I'm attractive to them or not, and what my faults may be. Liana - 'sluts' takes less time to type than 'women who brag about their promiscuity' and makes me sound angrier in the post. I am now convinced this is merely a prank designed to wind me up, and nothing you say from herein on will convince me otherwise. Either that, or you really are both so dumb as to have half-known me for all this time (and read my journal, in Liana's case,) and not yet worked out that I am a self-doubting little sprite, who has never thought himself particuarly attractive or manly, and wastes far too much time wondering what he's doing wrong, and envying other people. I have also fallen numerous times for girls who are very lovely - and who I would not say a bad word against - but who nevertheless do not feel the same way about me. I very rarely think it the other person's fault. I do however, despite being such a wretched creature, reserve the right to find certain aspects of other people unattractive, and, as I keep saying, the tendency to brag about promiscuity is one of those things. Maybe I'm out of order - maybe I should think everything about everyone else is wonderful.

Liana - no matter how much you insist it, you evidently have very little understanding of what I am saying. Or else you wouldn't have typed this: "love and adoration isnt a given, life isnt like Dawsons Creek, you cant get by on a charming smile and the belief that you are the most adorable specimen on the face of the planet... you have to work at being a decent and desirable person, and stomping your foot and dismissing women as slappers is immature and ridiculous." You wouldn't have typed it because you would have known that there is nothing in that chunk of text I remotely disagree with. The fact that you felt the need to say it anyway proves you haven't got a f.ucking clue what I'm talking about.

I dont think you are a self doubting little sprite, nor do I think you are a womanising rogue nor a wretched creature.. (Though I am sure you would love to be all those things, they sound soooo charming and raffish) But what i DO wish (and i really hate that this refers to your age, because it's an unfair thing that you cannot argue) is that you would see the facets of people.. see them for what they are, and how life experiences shape them that way. Sluts, promiscuous, man haters - these are all lazy one sided views of people, and its somewhat less than i would expect from you. As you grow (and here it is, I did warn you), you will see and understand the things that mould people, and perhaps you will not judge them so harshly. Now toddle off and catch your train. Do have a lovely time.

Liana - don't you dare...I'm warning you...

I also want to point out, before I finally get dressed and pack for my journey, that the percentage of women I am dismissing is probably far less than the percentage of men you dismiss. And yet for you that counts as 'high standards'. Double standards, more like.

Why is lying so awful? [%sig%]

*patronising pat* Ok, off you go.

Dunno, I'm a bit partial to a fib every so often. So I don't smoke - I have to have something to keep me going.

At last, wisdom prevails..

I dont like it Marc. How can you believe someone who cheats and lies? It means that even a basic conversation is shot through with inaccuracies... if someone is lying to me and I know it, it makes my skin crawl. Tom - opera, heh. Emma - sorry.

If you are at a house party and an uninvited guest attempts to ram his tongue down a female guest's screech and then she tells other party guests about it half in jest, half in disgust, does this mean she is bragging about her promiscuity and is therefore, by your definition, a slut?

Oh, hang on - here's something I hadn't thought of: Perhaps this is to do with age. More than we realise. By that I mean, by your age (sorry to bring it up,) I guess a lot of people have got through many partners. But I'm talking about girls who are around 20. By this age, the average is what, 5 or 6 boyfriends? I know some who've had more, some who've had none. Now, it might be the case that a girl who has torn through 10 in the last year has just been unlucky - and perhaps it is wrong to generalise. But, to make my original point absolutely clear, the kind of women who send me running give me the distinct impression that it's all about the numbers for them - that they, specifically, do *not* want to settle down with anyone, and prefer just sleeping with as many men as possible. *That* is the kind I steer clear of. And I really, honestly don't think I'm alone. Ponder.

i don't lie ........i'm just forgetful.

In answer to the question above, no.

Phew. I was really worried about that.

Liana, I hate you... (see my previous post)

I dont mind you mentioning my age at all... bring it up all you like. Getting to 39, I have learned a lot about people, and fortunately as I get even older, it becomes clearer that I dont in fact know it all. It stops me from sneering and scoffing at others in the sure and certain knowledge that everyone else is a fool, like I did when I was 20.

Hostess! I was drunk at the time..

Really people who don't like opera have no class...............I hate opera.

Oh, I hate being such a fence-sitter. Hen is entitled to say, in a thread headed 'unattractiveness' that he is not attracted to women who have had a lot of relationships. He doesn't need to be castigated for that. However, where he utterly loses the moral high ground is in branding them 'sluts'. I have to say, in the last twenty odd posts, I think Jay has spoken the most sense - there are people you like and people you don't. If you genuinely meet the right person and fall for them, their history won't matter a damn. Every single person out there has made a mess of their romantic past at least once, otherwise they wouldn't be single and out there. And just as the teenage boys I used to go to school with had probably not slept with a quarter of the people they claimed to have done, perhaps this is true of the women that Hen is not attracted to. Speaking for myself, there have been times in my life when I have wanted a serious relationship and there have been other times when (usually following a serious relationship going wrong) you just want to date someone who is pleasant to be around and who you really fancy. Not every relationship has to be 'the one'. I daresay a lot of the women that Jon is talking about would be far from promiscuous or fickle once they are with someone that they genuinely care about. And Liana a man-hater? Man-eater, possibly; but she's not someone who has a chip on her shoulder about men and feminism - think it is more likely that she gets touchy about a lack of respect being shown to an entire gender for acting in a way that is not only considered respectable but laudable to men. Like I said at the outset - this thread is about turn-offs and they don't have to be rational. I can see a perfectly logical reason why someone looking for a serious relationship and to not get hurt would tend to avoid someone that they fear might fuck them over - I think there are times when Hen's argument comes on a little too strong, but I doubt that he is actually misogynistic rather than overcautious.

Flash - you are in a class of your own...hehehe

think it is more likely that she gets touchy about a lack of respect being shown to an entire gender. Yes, thanks. And that applies to men as well as women.

I'm in a crass of my own Emma.

I don't know about UKA but there's going to be a limited amount of avant garde stuff here because there's a limited amount of it written. Nicoletta comes into that category and has been readily including by Tony. There's no fear of the intellectual on the "Writers from Elsewhere" forum, anyway. I don't really feel there's an ABC style. Most people seem to just write what they want to write, including in the discussions.

See, not only does my swear filter not work, my 'Prevent Andrew from making dumb remarks' filter is out of action again too. Sorry.

I think, to be fair, Hen must be allowed to say that he doesn't like promiscuous women, as that was the point of the thread. I put up a couple of idiosyncratic dislikes myself, which, fortunately, no one has challenged. I must say that Liana has never struck me as someone with prejudices against men; even in this thread I see no sign of that. I certainly don't see it in her writing. As far as in-your-face promiscuous women are concerned, I tend to think they are just going through a stage. Perhaps the sleeping around is a reaction to a relationship that went wrong. I hate the word 'slut' too: women who come over that way might be adopting a persona, for whatever reason - I doubt it is the real them.

People who dislike people for having flows in there characters. I like the misdemeanors in other people. It makes them more interesting and in a way, more honest.

Christ on a bike... you still at it Hen?

These statements you have thrown at me simply show a furious and frustrated man shouting impotently... You know absolutely nothing about me – as Bes just said – there is not one thing in any of my posts that suggest anything like the traits you attribute to me. My glamorous ranks?? Wtf? I am great great friends with the majority of my exes – I find most of them fiercely loyal, witty, eloquent and fun, and it is those things which I found attractive in them in the first place which remain so. You say you are not misogynistic – I beg to differ. Using words such as "slut" and firing off the above statement personally at me tells me an entirely different story. You say; “you're just making up some imaginary Hen who you can batter down”. Now I’m bringing this up because I think it is fairly important. I’ve heard you say the same thing on at least two occasions on previous threads. Maybe your time would be better spent analysing why exactly people (and this is not only me) get this impression of you, rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la I can’t hear you” Your arrogance and rigid belief in your views being the only valid ones and no one else’s being worth a candle is obviously coming through loud and clear. If as you say, you believe the things I and others say are designed specifically to irritate you and not because it’s what we see as truth, then that there is simply yet another example of a stupendous and wholly inadvisable conceit.

I think Liana's assessment is, in the main, fairly accurate. I wouldn't be quite so harsh as her - I think Hen tried to rile her, succeeded, and then complained when she bit back - but I do believe that she understands Hen's points perfectly well, just doesn't agree with them. Which, now I think about it, is basically what she said. hahahaha... thanks Tim.

Tony, I think that if you want to move on gently from the pop opera classics, Janacek's Katya Kabanova (the Mackerras version is ace) and Puccini's La Fanciulla del West (Domingo version is breathtaking) would be way to go. Some of the other operas I mentioned earlier in the thread are a bit gritty (I'm the only person I know who listens to contemporary classical music and have to rest people's ears all the time and turn it off). I write all my first drafts to Trance, though.

Like Plummet.

Monsieur Knight. Look, sometimes I have to state things that I would *think* are broadly assumed in very tender terms, lest people find the idea offensive. If I'd said, "As we all well know, and needless to say, all men and women are horribly weak!" I would have been shot down in flames for my stupendous arrogance again, and several examples of strong and admirable human beings would have been paraded before mine eyes to cries of, "You may call that weak, but I call it damned stalwart!" I must remember to leap upon you mockingly the next time you conch a received idea in diplomatic terms. Although, when the time comes, I probably won't be arsed. I am back in Norwich on Wednesday, and I don't have you number on my current phone.

What do I find unattractive: girls who like tofu. For lying to be so endemic in people, honesty must be overrated. [%sig%]

Another thing I don't like is people who elbow me out of the way at race meetings just to get a price. The jostling at Newton Abbot makes the tube look like 'after you, Claude'.