Now I am in agreement with Liana

While I've never read any of the pope's poetry, I'm in severe doubt as to the fact that he stands up for ALL human rights. There are a few humans that he certainly doesnt stand up for the rights of.

I'm glad you said "beside me," there Denver. Right, I see.

No I didn't say ALL human rights! He isn't morally perfect...only God is morally perfect!!!! I don't buy Papal infallibility!

I bought some Pope Soap on a Rope when he visited Denver in the mid 90's. Does that count?

Oh yes...even better than my pope scented rosary or glow-in-the-dark pope moneybox

Returns back with a case of 24... finds spot on rock and plops them down. Looks around at thirsty faces.. Damn I should have got some for rest of you!

Realises he is on wrong thread... and scarpers away shamefacedly...

Right, can't get my head around this: If God is morally perfect, why did he create an earth that eats itself? Or does it? I think it does.

The Problem of Evil 1. A good God would destroy evil. 2.An all powerful God could destroy evil. 3.Evil is not destroyed. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God. It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil. MOST ways of overcoming the problem (theodicies) are "greater good" arguments. Premise 1 should actually read A good God would destroy evil unless there was a justified reason in Him allowing it. One such justified reason/ greater good is this: Irenaeus (130-202 AD) thought that the existence of evil actually serves a purpose. From his point of view, evil provides the necessary problems through which we take part in what he calls "soul-making". From this point of view, evil is a means to an end in as much as if it did not exist, there would be no means of spiritual development. However , with this view god is the author of evil and although it has a purpose it challenges the nature of god as being all good. Irenaeus' view has been put forward in modern times by such philosophers as John Hick (Evil and the God of Love, 1966) and Richard Swinburne. According to this view the pains and sufferings of the world are meant by God to act as a means of producing a truly good person.

I don't buy the doctrine of the fall!

So, the more people that suffer the better place the world will be?

So one too performs God's work by being evil?

I don't practice religion, I practice symbiosis.

So good can not exist without evil? I see dark clouds on the horizon..

I didn't say I totally buy the Iranaen theodicy...just giving an example of how people have tried to cope with the problem! I wouldn't say doing evil is serving God! It is more like the presence of Evil enables us to know good, perhaps in the same way having hunger makes us appreciate food! I lie awake struggling with these problems myself!! Symbiosis is goood

Okay, *I'm being a philosophical lizard now* This is an old trick of fraudsters…create a problem that you already have a solution for. Everybody thinks you’re something special, when in fact you are a fraud. Jude, I respect your right to believe what you like but I think religion is nothing more than superstition in mass. [%sig%]

oh yes!

I'm an Iguana, not a Gecco...moron.

Well, it's the old yin and yang thing. We can't recognise and appreciate a perfect universe because we cannot make a comparison, but we can recognise and appreciate perfection within our own boundaries by measuring and comparing imperfections. As far as I can see, the natural world has no 'peace' agenda, but human civilisation does as a result of morality. have you studied the history of morality, Jude? Hmm..that's something I think I might pursue myself.

and here answers the age old question as to why the aussies can't break the sitcom market

No...and morality isn't an obvious static! We all probably agree that murder is imoral but when it comes to abortion or fiddling your travel expenses because your employer treats you badly we are into big grey areas. I studied philosophy of religion and we looked at the main characteristics of God (Omniscience, omnipotence, being eternal, morally perfect). We assign these attributes based on a. reflection and philosophical thought and sacred scripture. I find the morally perfect thing to be sensibly derived from scripture only...is God morally perfect...I don't see why he has to be.

If Moses supposes that God always knowses then Moses supposes erroneusly. For God only knows why the Beachboys composed and why acorns grow up into trees. He doesn't comprehend all the evils fates send and the paths trod by you and by me. For the Judgement's ahead when the Angel's books be read and our graces and sins will be weighed. Still God does know the time, the end of the Rhyme, when we'll cease to be chained and be free.

I'm not knocking the Beachboys just suggesting that inspiration and talent are gifts from God.

He left you out completely then, what a bastard.

Jasper, is no one monitoring your medication?

It's the vets day off.

' lie awake struggling with these problems myself!!' Do you never just apply Occam's Razor and wonder if the system that produced them is wrong - ie God as Christianity conceives of Him does not exist? Theodicy solved.

WHY do the papers have to do this ludicrous thing when people die, as in pretending someone is perfect. Human beings (even Popes - especially Popes?) are flawed. That should be seen as okay, instead of rewriting history to make people 'saints'. I have to say that someone that powerful being against condoms is like issuing a death sentence to thousands of people. There's nothing 'good' about that. Nothing at all. I know the Pope did some good stuff... but imagine all those men/women who thought they couldn't have sex with a condom because it would be against God's will, and who caught HIV, and who are now dying painfully, or dead already. I find I can't talk about Catholicism without getting all het up. Grrrr.

The pope didn't approve of gay sex either - look how much difference that made.

The pope not approving of sex is a bit like a building-site foreman not approving of bricklaying. Anyhoo, what pissed me off about the news coverage was the PRE-death column inches. You expect them to bang on when he carks it, but before?

Sorry, that should read: "the pope disapproving of GAY sex..." Really bollocksed that line.

maybe.

I lit a candle last night and will light one tonight. He is in my thoughts through my testing times. I seen the pope in belahouston park in Glasgow years ago. My da was a steward. It was a brilliant day. A day i will never forget.

(((((i))))

Yes. I just trust they wont wheel him out yet again to perform some religious function or other.

I feel a bit odd! I only remember 1 Queen and 1 Pope! As leaders they have very much been constants in my life, not that I really care about the queen. It is just impossible for me to imagine any other pope! Of course it is really important for me who takes over. Pope John XXIII had enormous effect in the 50's by calling the second vatican council which then took place in the 60's...the changes bought about for liturgy and the way in which religious orders conduct their affairs was far reaching.

ummm..

Hi George...sorry I didn't answer you IM earlier...I was in the canteen!

Let an old man die in peace... I just keep thinking that the crowds have been behaving selfishly and for their own ends... mind you I suppose he has been colluding with it. He sould have told them to eff off and leave him alone a long time ago... now that would have made an interesting window speech.

Has anyone read Demons and Angels? I prefered it to the Da Vinci code! I wouldn't mind a bit of exitement and conspiracy theory in the Vatican when he goes!

J-lo, give that turntable a kick, the record is still stuck on the first track.

apparently when this pope dies the end of the world isn't far off according to nostradamus

Nostradamus says things like... "When a leader from Europe, who is ill at a time of general confusion about terrible things, there shall be an uprising relating to four nations" which, lets face it could mean anything!

Did he read palms too?

what is the popes purpose, apart from just pope-ing around? I really don't follow religion so I'm flummoxed?

Hi Max! C'mon up here on this rock, it's warm up here. Want a beer?

Most of the pope's "pupose" is not understandable to non-catholics. To a non believer he is witness to what the world's millions of Catholics do believe. He stands up for human rights, he is a brilliant poet and he brings joy to the worlds many catholics (and noncatholics alike) What is the Dalai Lama's pupose? What is Kylie Minogues purpose?

Jude...I know you like beer. *hic* Come sit beside me on this warm rock.