sarcasm and irony

Morissette was accused of misunderstanding the nature of irony; but in my opinion she was using the term in a legitimstely loose, modern way. "Irony" has so many meanings that you'll find yourself up against it if you accuse people of misusing the word. Burchfield (in his revision of Fowler) names several different types of irony, for example (and admits his list isn't exhaustive): apart from the usual meanings, he mentions "Socratic Irony", "Dramatic Irony", "Verbal Irony", "Structural Irony", "Tragic Irony", and "Cosmic Irony", (which I presume is the catch-all "Irony of Fate"). He concludes: "The subtle weaving and unravelling of irony in literature and in life are matters of infinite gradations, and no amount of terminology will encompass them all or receive universal acceptance." Irony nitpickers may argue (subtextually, perhaps) that what they are against is the "misuse" of the word in everyday contexts by less educated people than themselves. To which I would reply, do catch up. The reason the word "irony" is used in so many contexts is that there's no better single word for the meaning intended; "irony" has broken free from specialised meanings to a new all-purpose usefulness. "[The adverb "ironically"], frequently followed by "enough", is now being daily used as a sentence adverb . . . " says Burchfield, "meaning not much more than "strangely(enough)", "paradoxically (enough)". Examples have been found from the 1940s onward, and it seems to be settling down into standard use . . ." So, isn't it time we gave Alanis a break? (Apart from which "Isn't it Ironic?" is a colossal track for a party tape, despite the fact that you can't dance to it - particularly if you enjoy seeing women hollering in unison at the top of their voices while under the influence of alcohol. d.beswetherick.

Mm.. a lecturer of mine quoted from the song, saying - "isnt it ironic? No actually Alanis, it's not ironic at all you twat". I dont like that lecturer. Dramatic irony I like.

Ah, so that's why... [%sig%]

The traffic jam when you are late is only ironic if you are Minister of Transport, otherwise it is Murphy's Law.

Nahhh...Murphy's law never applies here, as one can either ride a roo or fly an emu to work. But if an Aussie minister want's to get really sarcastic, he'll chuck a boomerang with an ironic twist into a flock of seagulls....then duck to watch the cat-fur fly! Kaazoontie

I loved that band. Had the album... "if I had a photograph of you/or something to remind me/I wouldn't spend my life just wishing..."

Jude, the example of the pens is not what I would call irony. They just thought you were being a smart-ass, as in 'well what do you think, you stupid clod, do you think we have these pens here for our health, of course you can take one, in fact take two and use one of them to make notes so you'll learn something, you ignorant moron.' When you say 'no' in an attempt to be clever, that's what they hear.

ok JT...I shall refrain from that particular way of communication!

Errrrr...I thinking more Yothu-Yindy than plastic aircraft fodder..lol?

The irony that Ms. Alanis Morrisette doesn't understand it. Is there a Mr. Pippi? My email address gave me away - doh! Yep, I'm a Brit through and through, though not necessarily proud of it. It's a bit like saying 'my mother drunk or sober.' I prefer her drunk. She's funny.

Did the lecturer really use that term? I'm slightly shocked. In my day they used to smoke pipes and only insult people in Latin.

It's far worse being an American, fatalky. I am always having to explain just why the idiot in the White House got re-elected. I feel like Jurgen the German in the old Harry Enfield skits: "I vould like to apologise for the conduct of my people during the last election..."!

Yes she did. She wears black nail varnish and thinks that she's 'down with the kids', but in fact she's a revolting old trollop.

The best writing on Dramatic Irony I've read was in Wayne.C.Booth's "The Rhetoric of Fiction" (itself the best general book on literature that I've come across - so good that it's influenced how I write). I confess that it took Booth to explain to me a fundamental point about writing that I'd failed to grasp for myself: "Whatever steps are taken to mystify inevitably decrease the dramatic irony." As he explains, when the reader knows something that the character doesn't, as is the case in most of Jane Austen's novels (for example, that marriage to Knightley is just what Emma needs), complexity and dramatic tension result; whereas when information is kept from the reader as well as the character, as in mystery fiction, the texture flattens. Booth suggests that the best way to obtain confusion in the reader is to use an observer who is herself confused. A simple point, but it had a big effect on my method. (The mystery in great fiction usually works that way, I think.) He also said that when something is frightening it loses its irony. That was when I realised why I couldn't stomach that Chris Morris comedy about paedophilia, even when I knew he was joking to make humanitarian points: the subject was just too frightening for ironic treatment, perhaps. Booth also gave me an insight into how to avoid coldness: "Sympathetic laughter is especially difficult with characters whose faults do not spring from sympathetic virtues." That enlightened me as to why certain types of comedy makes me uneasy - the comedy of humiliation, for example, which is pursued in those "trick the public" shows. The pranksters think they're being ironic; to me they often just seem cruel. d.beswetherick.

Ha: it must be awkward for lecturers whose style depends on "being down with the kids" when they are confronted with a mature student. Come to think of it, I did have a trendy lecturer - he had long white hair, wore tasselled cowboy jackets, and rode a flash motorbike; but, being a Medieval historian, he at least used old-fashioned language, like "miscreant" (which is what he called me when I was found guilty of taking university bedding down to the sit in). (About the sit-in, he said, "would that Penda were here". Seriously.) He died this February; and, wonderfully, that prompted an old college friend to contact me after we'd been out of touch for years, and we had a great weekend together in London, slightly shocked to find ourselves both fifty. God, I'm rambling today. d.beswetherick.

So errr..how do the Poms explain the Queen and her garden variety of testicle suckers over there? This ought to be good...)))) Jasper jumps on a cats tail (((

AG, if you need to insult Americans, do a proper job of it.

RD, I only did a half-assed job insulting Americans because only half of the American populace requires insulting. Or 53%, this time, I suppose. Jaspie, the only explanation I have heard viz: the Queen is that she is part of a 'tradition'. As far as I'm concerned, she can keep her job, but she's an appallingly poor public speaker and really oughtn't to do it. Like the idiot in the White House, as a matter of fact.

So if Dubya and the Queen got together and could procreate, and the offspring were witty intelligent speakers: would that be ironic?

It would be disgusting, whichever way you looked at it! *bleurgh!*

what I want to know is why my American cousins don't understand sarcasm and irony, which has caused me much embarrasment. I figured after my third or fourth conference to the US of A that there was no point saying "no" when asked if a delegate could have one of our lovely free biros because they thought I was being serious. Although of course, apart from Denver ...he is rare species I inherit irony from my father but I've now practised my skill so much that I employ double and triple and even quadruple irony ...and strangely, no-one gets it! j

Irony - Reagan, the most powerful man in the world, on a good day when he could remember his name. I, Ronnie... oh, forget it.

... he did, frequently.

See '... my inner Leftie' - well, actually, err, well - you know what I mean :oO

I'd love to f**k the Queen.....as it's all about one's church before one's country....ain't ya figure that out yet! I wonder if she'd scream, 'Yeah Baby,' while I stuffed C4 up her blurter?

Gee, Jaspie. What a pleasant thought. Wouldn't it be better to channel your considerable energy into creating loving thoughts for all humanity? lol

1. A figure of speech in which the intended meaning is the opposite of that expressed by the words used; usually taking the form of sarcasm or ridicule in which laudatory expressions are used to imply condemnation or contempt. 2. A contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things. Now let that be the end of it. [%sig%]

I believe this is the tom lehrer quotation: When Kissinger can get the Nobel Peace Prize, what is there left for satire? - Tom Lehrer on Henry Kissinger

Irony: It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a need is a knife.

If you intend to insult the listener it is sarcasm. If you do not intend to insult the listener, but he is insulted anyway, it is sarcasm from his perspective, but an example of ineffective irony from your standpoint. If you both get the joke, it is irony. At least that's how I see it. Unfortunately, much of what people claim to be irony is really just sarcasm that has backfired, or very poorly executed irony, and the speaker is trying to get out of a bind before the listener smacks him. I brought this up a long time ago and was told in so many words that since I'm an American I'm not entitled to an opinon on the subject. You can make up you own mind as to whether they were trying to be ironic or sarcastic.

And when you meet the man of your dreams and his beautiful wife.

Yes, the statement "Alanis Morrisette really wrote a good definition of irony in the lyrics to her popular song, 'isn't is ironic?'", would be sarcastic. Now, if Alanis Morrisette were to trip over the sheet of a4 that said lyrics were written on and bite her tongue, leaving her incapable of singing - that would be Ironic. Don't'cha think?

No. I think that would just be good luck.

Maybe Alanis Morrisette was being ironic. [%sig%]

irony is saying one thing and meaning another. Verbal irony (also called sarcasm) is a trope in which a speaker makes a statement in which its actual meaning differs sharply from the meaning that the words express. Situational irony is when accidental events occur that appear oddly appropriate, such as a thief getting his house burgled. ta da. I am revising for my exams, honest.

But what if a goat pulls the ironic thief's finger while he's stealing those sarcastic pearls from your glory box, Liana? Q: If a tree falls in the...blah blah...smell it? I think it would be pretty damn funny :)

*dejaspernates*

So, if I understand Liana rightly, sarcasm is just one form of irony. All sarcasm is irony, but not all irony is sarcasm. One thing I've noticed is that irony tends to be more subtle than sarcasm, and also people tend to use irony defensively. If it turns out something they said was wrong or wasn't well received, they can pre-empt any criticism by saying "I was being ironic".

What's 'dejaspernating' while bunting one's goat off the balcony for laughing at smelly old pearl thief's, mean then :) It's all about short fur and long claws...))))) rrrreeeowww (((((((

irony when i killed 2 wasps who were trying to escape from the room, with a book about colditz

Eminem winning the best International Male Artist award at the Brits was ironic. If I said that he deserved it, that would be sarcasm. [%sig%]

irony: hard, grey and heavy.

A traffic jam when you're already late

A 'no smoking' sign on your cigarette break

The Art and Culture section of the Sydney Morning Herald. [%sig%]

Henry Kissinger getting the Noble Peace Prize? (That's why Tom Lehrer retired apparently, said he couldn't top it.) [%sig%]

Sarcasm: Almost anything I say on a forum. Irony: Being mostly correct.

It is said that Americans suffer from an irony deficiency, I'm not quite so sure. Sam Cooke having a hit record with 'A change is gonna come' and then getting shot dead soon after. The west using food and lots of it to eat itself to death. Me telling Miss Pee Pee that he/she is so good with his/her words. Oh the persiflage of it all.

I think Americans suffer from British misconceptions.

A traffic jam when you're already late Ironic perhaps, but I would describe that as being redundant (and not in the sense of being let go from work, though that could also result).