Zidane, At Last, What REALLY happened!

am I the only one to think that Zidane moment was sublime?

No. I'm sure many will make him out to be a hero, but I'm not amongst them. I already have enough questionable heros in my life.

For me it was something that took over the idea of winning... he seemed to transcend it... it was his last game and something took over. Something to do with the perfect game, perhaps... It made sense....I don't know how else to describe it. It took over who won the world cup. Zidane's stag butt will be what we remember....

50 million Italians will remember a World Cup victory (I suspect). I'm not Italian - I'll remember a fall from grace.

He headbutted someone who insulted his mother. Probably not an uncommon occurrence in the world. Do you think if it hadn't happened on a football pitch we'd be asking if it was sublime? Just a thought... *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

No, I'm with fergal on this one; at first I thought it was typical thuggery, but after the allegations of what Materazzi said to him, I thought, 'good on you'. What I admired most was his public apology; he seemed so calm and unrepentant, apologising only for doing it in front of watching children. 'I'm a man, first and foremost,' said he, and I thought, 'and WHAT a man you are!'.

Hmm... well... I hate to come across all violence-doesn't-solve-anything, but... sublime? Hang on, consulting dictionary... 1. beautiful so awe-inspiringly beautiful as to seem almost heavenly 2. morally worthy of the highest moral or spiritual value 3. excellent excellent or particularly impressive 4. complete complete or utter ...?? *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

That sort of talk starts wars, Ssippi... :-( *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

"No, I'm with fergal on this one; at first I thought it was typical thuggery, but after the allegations of what Materazzi said to him, I thought, 'good on you'." Uh oh! Another 'terrorists vs. freedom fighters' moment. Violence is OK - maybe even satisfying - as long as we think it's deserved. Isn't that the root of so much conflict?

It's like the thing in school where everyone tells you that you should respond to bullying by telling the teacher or ignoring it. Some people only find out years later that the only response that allows you to maintain respect in the eyes of yourself and others is to 'hit them back', whoever they may be.

"Another 'terrorists vs. freedom fighters' moment. Violence is OK - maybe even satisfying - as long as we think it's deserved". No, that's not what I'm saying. I don't necessarily condone his actions, but I do understand them and cannot really blame him; he should have waited until after the game, however, and then clocked Materazzi a good one. "Some people only find out years later that the only response that allows you to maintain respect in the eyes of yourself and others is to 'hit them back', whoever they may be." Exactly. Verbal abuse goes on, on the pitch, quite a bit, I suspect, but Materazzi's abuse was clearly protracted. I'd probably snap under such conditions, especially after running my arse off for 113 minutes straight in front of 2 billion viewers. I don't condone Zidane's actions, but I do admire him.

I think the only physical violence which can really be said to be “OK” is that which can truly be defined within the “self-defence” bracket. Of course, the bracket of which I speak is somewhat loosely constructed, resulting in the consequent tendency for the shelf of argument to be so weighed down with what-if’s and suchlike that it will inevitably come tumbling down onto the floor of confusion. However, in principal, I stand by what I say. I generally see the point re the bully-in-the-playground argument, but do have a problem with the notion of “respect” (the acquiring/maintaining of)… being a word much used by the Mafia and similarly morally dubious organisations, one has to wonder whether this is indeed the be-all and end-all and ultimately justifiable by any actions pertaining to such…? Of course, I am speaking ideals, and one can perhaps not blame a person for “cracking” under pressurised circumstances. I offer my comments to the learned gentlefolk of the forum. *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

"but do have a problem with the notion of “respect” (the acquiring/maintaining of)… being a word much used by the Mafia and similarly morally dubious organisations" I think respect is an underrated concept nowdays; if children aren't taught to respect their parents, or teachers, or police, or other children (or other professional footballers for that matter), we end up with a society full of wankers who get away with being prats 'just because'. That Zidane put his own sense of honour in front of his career, or winning the Cup, or anything else, speaks volumes about the man himself, and whether or not he was right to headbutt Materazzi, he still has my respect for defending his self-respect! That he did it in full view of the world, 8 minutes from the end of the game (which they probably would have won had he been there to make the penalty) is an entirely different matter, as far as I'm concerned.

Ooh lovely, this is getting juicy! (or meaty… or whatever…) Re the notion of respect… mixed views! Where I agree that respect for one’s fellow human beings is certainly underrated and perhaps practised less than it should be nowadays, I would say that to have unquestioning respect for people because of their status/position is unwarranted until such a person has earned that respect. One would not need some sort of automatic/expected respect for parents, teachers, etc, if one had greater respect for humanity (and by extension the planet, everything on it and beyond). Self-respect also comes within this remit, as if one has respect for all humanity, then by definition one has respect for oneself. As for how one should defend one’s self-respect… well! How respectable is it to defend one’s self-respect, or indeed one’s family’s respect/honour with violence…?? And once again we get into Mafia territory! It’s a contentious one, and ultimately I’d have to position myself approximately within the vicinity of the proverbial fence. I would say, however, that as far as violence is concerned, it should, wherever humanly possible, be an absolute last resort – it does have a tendency to promote further violence and/or approval by those less intelligent than you or I. How far should one go to defend one’s self-respect? Now there’s a question… *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

"That Zidane put his own sense of honour in front of his career, or winning the Cup, or anything else, speaks volumes about the man himself" I disagree. Do you really think such thoughts went through his head at the time he used it as a weapon? I don't think he was thinking about honor or winning or losing. I think he cracked. Mother and sister insults are quick to fly around in sporting events - I don't think it was the first time in Zidane's career. I don't think this was about honor - he was tired, obviously. He had been goaded all game, like many players. And he cracked. I don't think he's a hero - I think he's looking up at his pedestal, trying to find a way to get back on top. If the exact same circumstances were reversed, would anyone be defending Materazzi?

'do you really think such thoughts went through his head at the time he used it as a weapon?' No, I don't, and that was why, as an act, it appealed to me. Nobody, with use of logic, reason or sense would have stag butted another player in that situation... ESPECIALLY as it was his last game... It appealled to me because it summed up the human condition. It could have only been better fore me if he'd walked off the pitch and not apologised. My interest in it has nothing to do with what was said during or after the match, or about respect or violence or anything. It was the fact that in that moment, that momenet when all those people were looking to see the world cup won, Zidane had a moment of his own that was outside the confines of the game, outside the rules. I am an advocater of non-violence. Utterly. I don't think he put his own sense of honour in front of his career. I think he existed in a pure bubble of himself at that exact moment and nothing else existed. To see that in such a high-pressure, world-wide event was captivating. That's why it appealed to me in any case.

Well, this isn't Zizou's first run-in with his temper, of course. I wouldn't say that I've *ever* viewed him as a 'hero', though others no doubt did/do. 'If the exact same circumstances were reversed, would anyone be defending Materazzi?' Yes, I would. Hurling insults at one another on the pitch is par for the course, but it was a many-times-recorded *string* of insults (e.g we can see him spouting something for a rather long period of time), plus nipple-pulling and shirt-tugging. Someone of that professional calibre really ought not to do that kind of Junior League stuff; so yes, if the positions had been reversed, I would defend Materazzi. Ferg, I like your interpretation of it.

See what you mean now, Ferg. Although personally I'd have found it more "sublime" if he'd stopped, sat down and started reading a book. *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]

No, that would be 'surreal'...

Sublimely surreal!! I think we could all do with sitting in the middle of a football pitch reading a book every once in a while. Maybe if those folks over in the middle east did such, the world would be a better place... *** pepsoid *** [[[ " It is a pickle, no doubt about it " - The Oracle (The Matrix) ]]]