Could I ask you to read this sonnet?

I enjoyed it very much. Your language is tight and rich, with an impressively varied rhythm to it and a cadence that climaxes sweetly at the end. I like the way you've sustained the poetic argument through the sonnet. This must have taken you ages to write. I believe the sonnet form still has legs, but I'm too comfortable with "doths" and other archaic expressions in a contemporary poem (I imagine you pacing round your knot garden in doublet and hose as you wrote it). Other than that aspect, the poem worked well for me - a real sense of your enjoyment and engagement in the craft came through

That should be "*not* too comfortable".

well done! I liked it.

A sonnet is hard...too many people attempt it and dont pull it off, but you have managed it. I forget who it was that wrote a whole book extolling the virtues of the sonnet - its perfect square form etc (sadly abc's formatting doesnt allow yours to appear as a square, but never mind) Like Bes, I too feel a little iffy about the language - I think the originals using such language did it because that WAS the language at the time... if hakey was writing today, he wouldnt have a doth in him i suspect. Try it in modern language, another challenge :o)

Sorry, but it isn't a sonnet. A sonnet is a fourteen line poem in iambic pentametre adhering to a prearranged rhyme-scheme. Having fourteen lines does not a sonnet make. Yours is just a poem in iambic tetrametre with an alternate rhyme scheme. Nothing wrong with it of course, although I found the language rather laboured. But a sonnet it aint!

I suspect you are wrong Jaybird - a sonnet is only *usually* in iambic pentameter, it is not a set rule. The only firm rule is that it should be 14 lines. There are other rules, depending on whether petrarchian / italian, or shakespearian, about the stanza divide. You are also wrong about the rhyme scheme, if you are suggesting that there must only be one - not sure you are. You can have A-B-B-A A-B-B-A C-D-E C-D-E, although even this is flexible, or you can have A-B-A-B C-D-C-D E-F-E-F G-G, which is the more common.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Liana is right.

*Looks on totally bemused*

They do not *have* to be iambic Jeff, was my point.

Im not being rude... why would you think that?

Is this a sonnet? (Would submit it properly, but STILL can't seem to log in). Haven't read up on them, so just nicked the quatrain and rhyme schemes from Shakespeare and also from looking at another web site. The rhymes, and metre, are probably shot to buggery tho. Everest The bar-light looks no different, open, But these drinks, sour with aging and rumour Have slapped at least a hundred loaves Down time, a naked urethra lost in tumours. As imaginary as cancer in a handsome man, My uncle is wrapped up for the first two days, Laughing about the unusual coldness of shadowed land, The inimitable heat of the sun, even how capital The Krays. The third wife is home, groaned when he started training, Sleeping pills all summer, she walked in on his mosquito net, And on guidebooks, a bit thick, to use words like draining. Nonetheless booked two return tickets, mine slightly wet. He shrugs me through it all, step by Absolut step, to borrow A phrase, he says, then nothing; we set out tomorrow. [%sig%]

Can you tell me what 'a change of sense is' jaybird? I'm not getting at you at all ..I'm just not clear on what you mean. And how important is the use of the semi-colon you mentioned. I thought jeff's poem was pretty good but, for me, I'd have to ask the same questions regarding the 'doth's' and 'hath's'. I only put mine on the thread to get some debate going really, and also to try and give jeff something to think about in terms of something a bit more conversational. He can take it or leave it, I'm sure. I might have been a bit misguided since I've not really stuck to the usual theme of a sonnet.. love. There might be a little bit of familial love in there.. but for the most part it's hardcore death all the way, I'm afraid. But the subject matter seemed to come out of the first few couplets.. and I just went with it (the forum html didn't take kindly to the last two indents so I had to separate them off) Are sonnets generally untitled? I honestly don't know what I'm doing when it comes to sonnets BUT I do think it's important to communicate in a language that, at least, feintly resembles the way people speak in reality. Did Shakespeare's language actually reflect the way people spoke in those days? I'm not too sure. I'm imagining that yes, in some way, it did. I only use the example of Shakespeare since his are the only sonnets I've really delved into, apart from a few modern sonnets. I'd have to take issue with you over your food analogy. What is 'edible' is what you feel you CAN eat, in my experience. Again, this is by no means a subtle dig, I'm just interested ..within the spirit of debate and all that. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. [%sig%]

sorry, scratch what 'you CAN eat' with what 'you WANT to eat' (in the above) otherwise it just re-affirms the standard definition. Hope to hear from you, Andrew. [%sig%]

"Calling it a sonnet doesn't make it a sonnet just as calling it a Tandoori chicken doesn't make it edible." Now you're onto the definition of words. A 'sonnet' is what is called and understood to be a 'sonnet'. X = X. There's no way around that in language, and you can't have a language that only you understand. Ergo, if we understand 'sonnet' to mean, as Liana correctly posits, a 14 line poem *usually*, though not necessarily, in iambic pentameter, adhering to one of a number of rhyme schemes, than that is what a 'sonnet' is. What you're doing is making up your own definition that only you and people who agree with you can understand. If, in future conversation, you refer to a 'sonnet', it will likely not mean the same to the person listening to you as it does to you. And that's a breakdown in communication. You also neglect the sonnet effect. If a poem is similar in shape to a sonnet, but not technically a sonnet, it's just not good enough to say it's "a poem in iambic tetrametre with an alternate rhyme scheme." It's closer to a sonnet than a free verse piece, and that must be noted. It may be, for example, that the intention of the poet is to corrupt the pure form of the sonnet by physically altering its rhythm in the last lines, say. Eliot's good old 'The Wasteland' is noteworthy for drifting in and out of standardised rhyme and metre, for example. In such a case, denying that it has anything to do with certain poetic forms because it doesn't obey the rules is absurd. Rules are there to be played with and subverted. In any case: "The point is that for over four hundred years the English sonnet has been devoloped into an exquisit art form." Have to disagree with you there. Sonnets feel, ultimately, chained and tamed to me. One has to really delve into the language in order to get past the numbing tedium of the form, which is wholly uninteresting unless it is in some way connected with the language. Free verse is far more interesting, in the right hands.

I agree Hen. Free is infinitely better - no constraints only the voice, able to wander as it wished. Who was it who said poetry is dancing, prose is walking? Re: the sonnet - come on jeffbird, you havent even started in on any allegorical rules, or the rule about arguments and conclusions. The only rule which is set in stone, as I said before, is that it must 14 lines and follows a strict rhyme scheme. Which that is, is up to the writer. Damn, I forgot to mention Spensarian sonnets too... back of the class for me.

Andrew - the octet and sextet should be divided with a semi colon strictly (though not always - *smiles*) speaking. First block, 8 lines, second block, 6.

Andrew. If a sonnet is mainly about love how do you explain "Westminster Bridge" Or "when I do count the clock that tells the time"? Liana. (what a lovely name) free verse is free verse and loving it as you seem to does not make it a sonnet. And, whoever it was who asked; Not all sonnets have titles. Shakespear's book of sonnets contains one hundred and forty five (I think) works. All untitled.

I never said free verse is a sonnet J... thats stretching it a bit even by my standards!

Heavens, I didn't know that sonnets had to be in iambic pentameter for them to be defined as such. I'll have to change the title. Seems somewhat hard to handle... but I'll have to give it a try, someday. Thanks to everyone for reading my work. I appreciate it very much. :) PS: About the "doth" issue, that's just me. Whenever I write a poem with a tight structure and rhymes, I end up using old-fashioned language, simply because I have seldom read sonnets with a different feel to them.

They dont! *chokes*

"free verse is free verse and loving it as you seem to does not make it a sonnet." Not sure where you're coming from here, J. How does an imperfect sonnet suddenly make the leap to free verse? Next you'll be telling us that a three-wheeled car is a horse.

no... more of a wheelchair really ;)

Excellent.. wheelchair analogies! Thanks for coming back on that Jeff.. and everyone, ..thought for one moment that this thread might be flooded with tundra and eery whistling breezes. Couldn't comment on "Westminster Bridge" or that other poem about the time.. as I haven't read them. Mentioned 'love' really only in reference to good old Bill.. since, as I say, they're really the only sonnets I know (I've never been without a copy for about nine years now, but never tried to write a sonnet before this one) ..the others are just ones I've looked at on the net. I may have read some by Keats and Shelley and all those people.. but it's not been for a while. I don't know.. I think a bit differently to Liana and Hen on this, maybe. But I think these strict rules might actually do some good (Mum's a catholic, blame her!) I was reading this thing on the net.. and this guy was saying.. 'I just start writing.. and then I suddenly realise I'm writing a sonnet' which I couldn't understand at all. With the one above I specifically, after drinking four of the best korean beers money can buy, decided to write a sonnet. And I don't think I'll ever 'find myself' writing a sonnet.. don't see how you can.. unless you think in quatrains or something. BUT you do seem to come up with odd things that completely subvert what you had in mind for a subject. Now, I really think all of this has something to do with the way people emote personally, and get their feelings down on paper. I think an up-to-the-minute sonnet (especially on the subject of love) seems a bloody hard task.. so I commend you on even attempting it, Jeff.. and, in a slightly different way, it's why I love Bill Shakes so much. This subject.. love, passion.. to me they're really 'messy' and not very systematic (as in a sonnet) ..passions are not so ordered, to my way of thinking ..so I'd much rather write in free verse with that subject in mind. But it does make me enjoy poetry so much, regardless of the subject matter.. knowing that there all these forms that you can f**k around with. Almost makes me never want to bother with prose again. Check the general discussion boards at the weekend, Jeff (and everyone else).. will post something on the ancient art of the Korean Sijo.. and I'll be disappointed if you don't attempt one. If you already know the rules get pen to paper.. *attempts to not be so schoolteacherly* [%sig%]

Just realised a rather whopping oversight on my behalf.. that the person I was refering to as Jeff.. is actually called John! (can't help p*ssing myself laughing right now..) My apologies, John. Oh, and thanks for the info Liana. Am I right in thinking Thomas Hardy.. (octet, sextet etc) wrote this kind of thing? Have a feint recollection of some sonnets from school. Anyone know Shakespeare's reasons for bunching them up? Am now going to look up iambic pentameter.. as I think, if I ask the question here, Liana may well have some kind of seizure. [%sig%]

After reading this lot I think I'll avoid trying to write a sonnet and stick to my usual form, the 'soddit'.

Okay, let's get something straight. The sonnet is ALWAYS (yes ALWAYS, Liana) written in iambic pentameter. That's one of the things that makes it a sonnet in the traditional sense of the word. You can have a sonnet in the untraditional sense of the word (see Armitage, Duffy et al)...often called a mock sonnet...but it's still not a sonnet, as poetry still currently defines it. Maybe one day this definition will be wrong. But not yet. Now I've made leaps and bounds appreciating and creating free verse since being on abc. I've arsed around with haikus, and people have said: that's not a haiku. Fair enough. It's a "mock haiku" then. (Still better than the shite these detractors write though!) But, also, with respect to (even today) recognised definitions, let's be clear: a sonnet has fourteen lines (stanza rules are flexible), iambic pentameter, Shakespearean or Italian (plus maybe another? can't remember) in rhyme scheme, with a rhyming couplet at the end. At the end of the day, you can't call table tennis, tennis. Not yet anyway. [%sig%]

.......wrong paul. A sonnet is USUALLY written in iambic pentameter, but not always. Try some John Donne - master of the sonnet. Of course i could always have a word with my Lit professor and tell him theres a german teacher in Manc that says hes got it wrong. (But I doubt he'd take much notice.) And yes, there is another sonnet form - spensarian. There are other - also flexible rules about content - the poets idea or argument in the first stanza, the turning point, followed by the conclusion - but all these are flexible and were messed around with by the poets considered to be masters of the sonnet. John Donne, for example, who I mentioned above. Google some... (you are good at doing that) and you'll find Im right. Here - I did this just to save you time.... "Title: What is a sonnet ? lyric? Description: What is a sonnet & lyric --influential fourteen-line fixed lyric form that has been practiced by English poets for five centuries. "

From a school lesson plan on google: "A sonnet has 14 lines, and the lines are always iambic pentameter, that is,they consist normally of ten syllables with every second syllable accented" I don't care what your trendy prof says, this is what we teach kids in school, cause it's RIGHT! I'm glad you to introduced me to the joys of free verse Liana, I'm much better for it. But why apply your love of freedom to strict form, like sonnets? Sonnets are for people who want hard rules. Mess around with them, sure, but they're called something else then, (like "mock sonnets"), until the poetry establishment fully accepts them as sonnets. Look at Simon Armitage's "Poem" : What makes this a "mock" sonnet (which it generally is accepted to be)? From memory, the only thing it didn't have sonnet-wise, is iambic pentameter.

You are wrong. Donne, wrote sonnets, often in tetrametre.... My lit prof by the way, is not trendy.. he doesnt bleach his hair and get down with the kids... hes about 70.

and what you teach the kids in secondary school, is i suspect at a lower level than someone whois teaching masters lit....

Have to say that I rather agree with Liana!! Shakespeare's Sonnet 145 and a few sonnets by Thomas Hardy are in tetrameter (four iambs per line), and some of Sir Philip Sidney's sonnets (see Loving in truth...") use hexameter (six iambs).

Ok, we've finished with this... you and Paul are wrong though, not Hen and I... See? I can do that too.... now, about this new thread.

seems to me you all win. it depends how strict you are with the definition of 'sonnet' jolyon obviously copied her/his post from here: but if she/he had bothered to read down to 's' then she/he would have found this quote: >>From the Italian for "little song," a poem usually rhymed, 14 lines long, and in iambic pentameter.<< jolyon reminds me of michael moore - take a quote out of context and use it to win your argument or, as in this case, google a bit and copy and paste when you find what you need. ps I suspect sonnets.org know what they are talking about. Me? I don't care and think all your abbas deserve their waterloos. smile heh heh heh

Well I certainly agree about Michael Moore.