I would tend to agree actually, fergal, believe it or not. I have very feisty children and both are very strong-willed, so sometimes a smack on the leg or the bum is an 'easier' option when I'm feeling particularly ragged after a hard day and my son has, for example, slammed the door so hard he has broken the porcelain doorknob off. He went through a very ...challenging... phase recently and sometimes a smack was the only thing that would calm him down enough to reason with. I strongly _don't_ believe in 'negative attention', though, and my kids usually get plenty of warning before any kind of disciplinary measures take place. Ultimately, one has to use one's own judgment and have some measure of self-understanding to wade the treacherous waters of parenting. I don't think there's one 'right' way to parent or discipline (and this would be the problem with parenting classes, I think; not taking into account individual temperaments/circumstances, etc.); neither is there a 'wrong' way to parent, although I think everyone would agree that there are some glaringly obvious exceptions... many parents (myself included) tend to be the harshest judges of themselves, anyway, so who needs anyone else doing it for them, if they're doing their best?
I think most people do their best. I don't have a real opinion on this, other than I don't think slapping is necessary or good....and parenting classes helped my sister a lot - though I can they wouldn't help others.
Whaddo I know? I ain't got kids anyway, and imagine it to be on thankless, slog from beginning to end (though rewarding too obviously).
I saw the video. The little girl was black. The teacher and assistant principal were white. In the American context that means no matter what the teacher and the principal do, they are wrong--and the kid knows it. It was a school, not a daycare center or a drunk tank. They called the police and pawned the problem off on them. The police took out the handcuffs, not the school. While there might have been some other way to handle this, in the American context, the school administrators chose the least of many possible evils and tried to cover their own rear ends, which is what anyone would do. One would hope that the parents and the kid would get the message and shape up, but there is little likelihood of that. The system is tipped very one-sided in their favor. And people wonder why no one wants to become a teacher.
I think there's an issue of short term and long term effects.
Disciplining children through physical violence certainly can work effectively in the short term but what happens when it's withdrawn.
There are some sound practical points behind the wooly liberalism of explaining to kids that things are wrong rather than hitting them.
At school and in work you will often have to take instructions (which could involve you doing something boring or unpleasant) from people who are less physically strong than you are and either cannot or will not enforce their instructions through violence.
Young people who don't learn self-discipline generally end up having extremely miserable lives and also end up causing lots of misery for other in the process.
... and there's nothing wrong with negotiation anyway. if my children when they were younger, wanted to do something, and I didnt want them to do it, then we negotiated. Not with bribery (what a thought)... negotiation is a two way thing - to suggest negotiation is only a "if you dont do a, b or c, i will buy you an icecream, is ludicrous. It's more a "yep, I know you hate shopping - bear with me kid, and it'll be over soon, then we'll do something you do like". What's wrong with that? Nowt. "I'm bigger than you, so what i say is law" makes me feel nauseous. My eldest has misbehaved quite badly this weekend, ferg will attest - but we are currently in negotiations as to how she can do the thing she wants to do, but on my terms - the thing she did, has resulted in a grounding and loss of privileges, not a slap.
We're very close. I'm close to all my children, and they are all well mannered and intelligent kids.
She says, smugly.
Oh, and the slappers of the pierced kids, are usually bottle blondes with a hint of frizz, or a fat man in a too short teeshirt. Just an observation.
Yes, yes, of course you're right: there's no simple solution. If we paid teachers as much as professional football players make, or invested the difference betwixt the salaries into teacher training, there would be fewer problems. Nowadays it does seem that teachers have their hands tied when it comes to discipline, but the race card makes things a lot more dire. Mind you it IS Florida, not exactly a hotspot of tolerance no matter what the subject. God only knows why Brits like to go there for holidays so much. It's a big frickin swamp, full of swamp things. (I was born in Florida, so I know! ;-))
Now that this thread's regained some balance, I'll give my observations.
The best-behaved, balanced and happy kids (and adults) tend to be those who've been brought up with a fair degree of consistent discipline, whether this involves smacking or not - but if it doesn't, you've got to be extra firm in sticking to whatever it is that the kid won't like.
Kids who've been brought up by well-meaning parents with poor or haphazard discipline might turn out all right, but if they're strong willed to begin with it's an uphill battle and if they're into their teens and run riot you've, sadly, left it too late.
The worst kids are those who've been dragged up by don't-care parents who let them be out till all hours and don't care how much they inconvenience others as long as they're out of sight. When they're in trouble with the police they might get a good hiding but that's not discipline, it's because the parents have missed "EastEnders" or a few pints in the pub with all the hassle. South Manchester's full of those families.
Pro-spankers point to the first group as to why spanking works, anti-spankers point to the third group as to why violence breeds violence. Kids know the difference, even if idiot social workers don't.
Well, it's a personal thing, really, and none of us are going to change the others' mind. We're firmly in our trenches.
I was spanked as a kid (and grounded, and had priviledges withdrawn) as I've said before, as were most of my schoolmates, and none of us have wound up in gaol or full of piercings (well, I used to have 'em! ;-)) or are egregious anarchists wreaking havoc on society. To the contrary. We're all lovely, normal, nice people: civil servants, artists, lawyers, computer whizzes, even my Republican friends. I don't think smacking, per se, has a long term effect on children; I harbour no grudges against my parents for spanking me. I respected their authority, which is what children should do. Smacking for discipline is a world away from beating them for the hell of it, or smacking without provocation. I'd rather be a mother who occasionally smacks her children than a frizzy haired middle-class well-educated mother who never smacks or disciplines in public, but when negotiations break down ("ARTHUR! Do NOT hit your father there! That hurts!") is reduced to a shrieking harridan, behind closed doors. Like my neighbour. How damaging is -that- for the kids, I wonder?
This isn't a pissing contest; I've no doubt your kids are wonderful, Liana. So are mine. ;-)
I understand what you mean Neil, but isn't what you just basically, 'consitency is everything'.... you don't need to have corporal punishment for that, do you? I'm sure some do, but it's not necessary, is it?
I don't see why someone would chose that over other methods. I'm all for each to his own, but in this case I just think, 'they are small and, no, I don't want to'.
I'm sure they are. Pissing contest sounds like a vile phrase by the way. Not *quite* sure what it means (thank goodness) but it sounds like it should be coming out of a truckers mouth.
The problem is that people equate smacking with an assault.
I have smacked my kids, but it depends on the child. My oldest child behaved as soon as I looked at her. My son took no notice of that or any kind of other discipline for more than 5 minutes. My youngest is a mixture of the two.
I would not criticise anyone's style of parenting because I don't know how my kids will turn out. Who's to say they won't be axe murderers or the most brilliant scientist finding the cure for cancer, AIDS and the common cold. I certainly wouldn't take credit for the triumphs and and blame them for the failures.
I have a tenant who is a drug addict, shoplifter, alcoholic and has failed to bring up her child, leaving neighbours and family to cook her breakfast and dinner. That child is one of the sweetest, kindest children I have met. What makes sense in that?
yep it is, and also sad.
(ag, i have only just seen your porcelain doorknob comment, and i am afraid it made me laugh so unexpectedly that my tea went down the wrong way. I'm terribly sorry for that)
Hello all - here's my twopence worth. Docking pocket money works a treat now that they're older but I agree that consistency is the key (though it takes a real effort when you're tired and the whinge factor is through the roof and the easier option is to give in just this once...)
Who's seen Super Nanny? What a wonderful woman. Wish she'd been to hand when my two were attracting audiences in Asda.
[%sig%]
I saw the video of this incident last night. The talking heads were all having a say about it, blah blah blahhhhh....
The little girl wasn't that out of control. All the teacher had to do was make a couple of funny faces and get the little girl to smile, the whole thing would have been over in 30 seconds. Instead, it became an issue of control and will power. Those involved couldn't resolve their bank accounts and shouldn't even be in a classroom.
Oops - sorry Fergal, only just read your earlier post. I'm sure that programme's helped more parents than any book - it seems so obvious when you can see it in action.
[%sig%]
My sister said she just didn't know any of that stuff.... she used to shout and get the same responses again and again. Now hollie is very well behaved for a three year old and even sometimes takes herself off to the naughty step without being told because she knows the rules.
(sometimes she sends her doll to the naughty step, and I'm not sure if that is good or not...)
Agree Radio... that was kind of the point I was making when I started the thread. I just couldnt believe the situation had spiralled so out of control. Spank the lot of 'em, I reckon.
Super nanny is great, but I wish she'd learn to say 'acceptable' properly.
way hay ... the old smacking debate ...
i have smacked mine in the old end of tether frizzy hair supermarket nightmare depressed young mother with no support kind of way ... i really wish i hadn't ...
i only ever did it when i was out of control and only to the eldest who was a challenging super bright hyperactive dementokid ... i really hate looking back on those days and how awful and unhappy some of those times were ... and he still reminds me i smacked him ... ouch!
i havent smacked any of them for ages (about 15 years) ... and none of them have earrings tho dan did have a pierced nose for a while ...
still, if we are pissing up the fence ... my kids are GREAT...
ha ha Liana - that drives me MAD (asseptable behaviour indeed)
and I don't think anyone should beat themselves up about how they've brought up their kids. I happen to think most people do the best they can do.
I'm sorry, but violence, as in hitting another human being is just violence. Yes even if it's your own child. If you chastise your wife/husband with a smack across the legs or worse, you can go to the police. And that's right. But children can't. Or daren't.
In the scene that was shown I was gobsmacked (you see how violence has become part of the descriptive panorama of our language?) to read later so-called sentient beings (I presume white) talking about 'the race card being thrown around.' So because the little girl - yes - the little girl - was black she behaved differently. Or her parents did or whatever.
Can you see the sub-text here? 'They' behave differently. I thought we were getting beyond this. Stupid me. Aren't we still promoting an illegal war against 'The Ragheads' (that dismissive phrase again) just to steal there oil?
Up to 100,000 innocent men, women and children killed, yes and I include those poor dupes from the American and Coalition forces who thought they were going to liberate Iraq, from tyranny and Saddam Hussein. But what it meant was that they just liberated the,oil, just so that some fat Yank with the intellect and attention span of a Mayfly, can drive around Los Angeles in a Humvee to pick up his dry-cleaning. Or better still, to send his Hispanic maid to do it.
As someone who comes from the countyside, if any of our cats/dogs shat inside, then we grabbed them and pushed their faces in it. (I know I know) I'd love to get the ineffably smug Blair and his wife (who should know better) and Bush and shove their faces into the bloody mire that was once a human being, and say 'Was - is - it worth it to try to sustain our lifestyle which is un-sustainable?'
The wrong answer?
I might just get violent
i may be making instant enemies here (just add walter)but don't you think that children have no respect anymore?and that adults are so terrified of the ramifications of discipline that children are being permitted to run riot?i don't advocate violence and i am passionate about children having the right to love,security and an education but i feel every parent is,ultmately, responsible for rearing a well balanced, socially aware person who will take the examples shown and apply them to the next generation. Unfortunately,the society we live in is making it virtually impossible to instill any kind of discipline and if children were given EVERY choice, they'd live on chips and chocolate, get up at dinner and not go to school (yeah,me too)so we have to guide them with the 'do as you're told cos we know best' banner and that includes discipline.
[%sig%]
Pages