The Laspsed Catholic Club

I know Mississ...I was being hypothetical...and anyway I aspire to emotional martyrdom!

But what about pagans? Who are pagans? what are there ultimate goals? theres a lot more of them about casting spells: I trust pagans the least out the lot of them, and just to reiteratre about yesterday i said at the beginging i was digging my self in deep and i seemed to have done that quite well, as usual, but never the less most of that crap what i wrote is in humour: i tend to always stick up for people who are crapped on, not literally of course hence sticking up for our gay and transgender population but well i think i will be doing less of that in future. Easy peeps life tumbles on..

Look ive started again. pagans should hold the same amount of respect as the rest of them.

No, they should be mocked and challenged - for being so f**king gullible and endulging in tragic fantasies - as much as the rest of them.

Pagans, historically at least, are simply non-Christians. From the Christian perspective, a Hindu might be a pagan. Alternatively, pagan could mean someone who subscribes to an ancient, and now largely disappeared, belief system, but that doesn't mean they had no religion or other spiritual beliefs. I always get a good laugh out of the the notion of 'ancient superstitions,' such as explanations for the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. In our enlightened age, we don't have such simple-minded superstitions any longer but have progressed to some truly magnificent superstitions: for example, nationalism, a superstition inventend by Napoleon so he could control a multicultural army and conquer the world for the purpose of liberating it. (ahem).... That little superstition resulted in the deaths of about 150 million people in the 20th century, which makes the sun rising and setting superstitions look quite benign by comparison, I'd say.

I must be confused about the definition of 'spirituality.' What you're describing to me, Liana, sounds a lot more like 'yoga.' I had a much different definition of 'spirituality' in mind, so, I guess if spirituality is a 'calm goodness,' then you *can* have it without religion! Again, a church itself should not make people feel guilty. Biblically, as long as you repent your sins to God, you should not feel guilt. Indeed, God insists that you try not to feel guilty. I guess being a Christian is a difficult thing to explain, Liana, but it doesn't seem anything like you described it at all. Yes, I entered into Christianity as an act of blind faith (...and, I didn't take this step of blind faith until two years ago. I was actually on the verge of becoming a 'lapsed Christian,' until I decided that it was 'better safe than sorry'...) Even though fearing that I might go to Hell was an early inspiration, as well as my parents being Christian and naturally wanting to follow their example, I went ahead and told God that I wanted him to be the center of my life. Albeit, he isn't quite in the center of my life as he should be, yet. There are still many personal issues I have to work out first, including apathy ... but I'm trying, and I'm getting better at it. Anyway, since then, God has revealed himself to me in so many ways, that not only proved to me that he does exist, but also strengthened my faith ... I, of course, don't expect non-Christians to understand this! But it's true! I must admit that I never exactly had a grounded imagination (if my old short stories reveal that in any way). But if I'm making this up, then I'm fooling myself remarkably well! (Unlike what you might think, Christianity is not a series of 'brainwashing' by the church ... It's very much a personal experience. ... I might add that it's a personal experience that can only be romanticized after-the-fact.) I also don't understand why you approach Christianity with such a scathing bitterness. What's wrong with it? Is it because Christians live life thinking they know the secret of it all? ... Is that so awful?

Though I'm with Liana on the atheist vibe - and agree wholeheartedly with a lot of what she says - I feel her definition of spirituality is on shaky ground. A calmness isn't spirituality to me, that's just being calm. But if you look at dictionary.com, both of you will find a definition which backs up your own. ("relating to God" for Dom, "anything to do with the soul and non-material stuff" for Liana.) It can mean a lot of things, but to me, it implies some kind of belief that there is something beyond the material world: a spiritual plain, a supernatural world. Interpretation of this can be very wooly (and middle-class!), and an atheist who does yoga could claim they are plugged in to such a world, in a sense. But if they don't believe in actual "spirits", non-human entities in a different world, I wouldn't really say they are spiritual.

Don, "Yoga" is spiritual...in fact religious. In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna outlines three Yoga paths that lead to the shedding of bad karma and freedom from rebirth as understood in Indian religion and philosophy. Krishna outlines three approaches towards union with God. Karma Yoga - the Way of Action Jnana Yoga - the Way of Knowledge Bhakti Yoga - the Way of Devotion It has little to do with bending one's legs into odd positions on an excercise mat in a leisure centre. The excercise type "yoga" (an incorrect usage of the term) arose because posture is all important when embarking on some of the spiritual excercises, especially of bhakti yoga. Couldn't get a decent definition of religion but here's one anyway... Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. Definition of spirituality - The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual. Spritual - Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. So I think you can have either one without the other or both j

signs in..

I can't decide if I'm a Born Again Atheist or Dyed In The Wool Agnostic.

I think the catholic church should open there doors to transgenders, gays, and everyone and if they stopped living to this pretext that people are going to hell for acts of lust, and all that then they might find that there church increases in numbers. The whole kind of doctorine of catholism centers on love rather than lust but this in itself does not make sense. If you are to stick by the story of adam and eve then you see that even love is an act of lust, no matter what Rome says. This is quite clearly stated in the bible. Every form of love is just an act of lust. Love itself is lust hence a person who is in love is just being greedy with emotion and feeling. Basically but i went back to church and i found that people where really unfriendly. but it all comes back to love and lust. Most of the people there have familys ie, they have had sexual intercourse which means they must have had lustful thought to carry it through, i mean thats whats all really about. *twangs suspender belt*

hey has anyone mentioned football....now there's a religion... Saturday club an all!

sighs...I knew it would come down to sex... But strangely the Vaisnaivite Hindu (Krsna Conscious) movement demands quite a lot....no meat-eating, gambling, alcohol or other intoxication and no illicit sex (meaning any sexual activity except within marriage for the procreation of children). Yet there is no shortage of young devotees, in fact you have a time squeezing in the temple for kirtana on a festival day. I think the sex thing has been over emphasised by the media. When I was away doing the prodical thing it was because I just did not accept the doctrine. Once I did the other things didn't matter. In the light of the resurrection, the whole sex thing is about important as popcorn ...But if that is the feeling out there then it has to be adddressed...

Of course i do not represent all catholics so this is just my point of view, but i must say that the catholic chapel does do some great work and this can not be denied. And if all these eastern philosophys are so right, how do they have sex how do they procreate if they are not thinking about lustful thoughts. Are they thinking about bananas? And in no way did i say that it was all to do with sex. Being transgender or gay i dont think makes you think of sex more than a 'staright person', or think more of sex than religious people. *i think i might be digging myself deep here, but so shall i walk on*

...yes God is a gooner (and a dj)

...and I add that far from being sexually repressed...Krsna consciousness ultimately involves transcending NOT repressing sexuality. Channelling energy elsewhere. That Sex makes you happy is a myth given to us by the media. Remember sexual pleasure evolved to make sure us lazy creatures reproduce. It is as banal a drive as wanting a doughnut. What really gets me is these "Dear Deidre" style agony Aunts. Someone writes in saying "I'm not interested in sex anymore" why is that a problem. It seems quite logical when there are so many other more interesting thins out there!

like astral projection, ancient scripture study and playing pool

like it!

Yeah i see what your saying Jude but do you think life would be much joy if we all lived this way, i mean we can deal with all that when we are so called dead, do we not, (and by the way for those of you who do not know, there is no such thing as death, another media propoganda ploy) Emotions are what life is about this is what we are here to experience. on a different note Janet Paisley the scottish writer is coming in to our class tommorrow to be interviewed by us, any one heard of her. Any one know any gossip.

For it was written in the book of Wenger..."Lo the evil one shall rise from Old Trafford and the minions of hell shall gather from Anfield and White heart lane, yea take heart, Highbury shall conquer"

If the above posts are anything to go by, I'll stick with being the Agnostic. C'mon Jude, Sex IS a pleasure. Yes it's incredibly over stressed by the media (as are thousands of other things) but within the bounds of a happy, stable relationship, sex is healthy and fun, even when it's enjoyed with no attempt at procreation. And Stephen, I'm glad your beliefs work for you but IMO, when I'm dead, I'm dead, that's it, zip. No life everafter. I'm happy with that. I've got one life and I try to enjoy it and get as much from it as possible. But to state that death is 'another media propoganda ploy' is, frankly, bollox.

Aha! the truth is revealed, Jude is the Antihox.

the Good News is that death is real but has been contact Yes sex is a pleasure as are doughnuts

and both can make you fat. Custard or Jam ?

We eat to live ...if we eat excessively and indiscriminately we get fat. Sex is the same if you do it enough for it to serve its purpose its a positive pleasure. keep on for the sake of sense gratification and you get a kind of emotional obesity disorder (according to Srila Praphad)

death has been contact? I don't get that.

conquered ...I meant I was having one of those acute lapses of concentration... may the Lord have mercy on my soul

speaking as an ex altar boy, very much in the lapsed camp, despite the presence of 2, yes 2, nuns in my family (aunties) lapsed, about 18/19 when i went to college stopped being an altar boy...when i was 14 reason for lapse most are already listed i always say to my mum that i'll come back if the church relaxes it's laws on contraception, divorce, woman priests, celibracy (it all does come down to sex) and also is more open about the sexual shenigans of priests over the years...extremely unlikely, in fact i'll believe in miracles if all that does come to pass I was taught by christian brothers and they recently apologised for the fact that many of their order had sexually assaulted boys in their care luckily i was unmolested at school, in fact the christian brothers didn't seem to be the molesting kind at our school, although they did turn a blind eye to a certain lay teacher, who was able to get away with it *bless me father for i have sinned, it's been 22 years since my last confession, and i have got a lot to talk about.* [%sig%]

Well Martin if youu'd go back if the church relaxes it's laws on contraception, divorce, woman priests, celibacy ... Why not be Church of England??

because i lied and i'm going to hell

unlucky you choose life!

I think people lapse because believing in God and an afterlife is a stupid childish superstition, drummed into us as a "truth" from an early age, until you reach your early teens, and the drummers think, "Ah, I suppose he/she is too old to be controlled by this load of old flannel anymore, might as well give up." And the only ones left are very desperate silly people with lots of problems, intellectual priests, and those who join the clergy to make money out of drumming (cushy number) and meet like-minded gay men. Am I close Andrew and Hox?

intellectual priests = intellectual pigmies... Yeah yeah I know...

I'm sure your Aunties are praying for your salvation Martin! I'm not sure believing in God is childish. The great theologians like St Thomas Aquinas, St Anselm and St Augustine put forward intellectually sound arguments... St Thomas' 5 proofs of the existence of God can be found here St Anselm's proof 1. The Fool asserts that God does not exist. 2. What is called "God" is "a being than which no greater can be conceived." 3. The Fool agrees that "a being than which no greater can be conceived" exists in the mind, since he understands the words. 4. To say that "a being than which no greater can be conceived" does not exist is to say that such a being is only an idea--it does not exist in the mind and in reality. 5. But such a being, which exists in the mind alone, is in fact "a being than which a greater can be conceived" since it is greater to exist in both mind and reality than just mind alone. 6. So, the Fool believes that "a being than which no greater can be conceived" is "a being than which a greater can be conceived" which is impossible. 7. Therefore, since "a being than which no greater can be conceived" cannot exist in the mind alone (because that is self-contradictory) such a being must exist in both mind and reality. 8. Therefore, God exists.

...apparently

I lapsed for most of the same reasons as Martin - maybe we could start an ex altar boys club. And after last nights result I don't believe there is a God. [%sig%]

Oh youve got it in one my friend. No church or chapel represents God, but certain men do. You should ask your intellectual friends in the goverment about new strains of disease forming and what this might mean to mankind. Just becasue the church and chapel of the west seemed to have sold God out doesnt mean others have, We dont need no church to beleive in an afterlife and God, We know the story of Jesus and we shall bend to know sword of anything other wise even if this means giving our lifes in a noble war to defend a true Gods word in Europe or beyond. you shouldnt critisize Jesus so openly and so dergoatory you might start a civil war in the Uk, there are enough warriors who would give there lifes to defend his name. God is Good God is Greatest Jesus is the King

God is a Gooner!!!

..and right anyone who says there is no God, who do you know, have you died and come back to tell us that how can you say there is no God, How can you say there is no after life? have you died and came back to tell us? we know this to be true not by teachings but by thought you might not know what this means but thats not the point..

Good Point But both Krsna and Jesus said that Religion was made for man not man for religion. For as long as the Church serves men rather than men serve the Church, we're doing okay.

*twangs suspender belt and furiesly storms out of college class for smoke after giving up for two days* BeJesus of course a theres F*****G GOD

Why is it foolish to assert that God doesn't exist ?

I find it easier to perceive God than myself sometimes... (this wasn't an effect of magic mushrooms) . Don't worry Stephen, annoying though agnostics are (atheists are okay - its agnostics that really rile me) God doesn't demand we defend Him to all, just that we stay true ourselves... I think

I think back in Anselm's day the Church was the hotbed of intellectual pursuit, so wisdom and faith were equated. I think the term just reflects the period in which Anselm wrote the proof

'atheists are okay - its agnostics that really rile me' *throws up hands in despair*

sorry ... shouldn't have said that atheists are not okay, they must be spiritually starving... There is a certain type of agnostic that wind me up...the ones who haven't decided either way because they simply can't be bothered

...and you have to admit there is something endearing about mississippi's brand of atheism

2 questions hox what's under your cassock and does god live in manchester?

Mine is simple - my aunt Jackie got divorced from her husband (who admitted thirty-four separate counts of adultery) and instead of the Church offering her support, they told her that divorce was a mortal sin for which she would be punished. This was in Wales, where hell was very much still the main topic of sermons. So we all came out of the Church in sympathy. I've never been convinced by St Anselm's proof - I can conceive of all sorts of things that can't possibly exist, like a purple unicorn that speaks in the same voice as Michael Barrymore, that doesn't make them real. Kierkegaard's proof is the only one that counts, which is why the Catholic faith (if you choose to be a Christian makes more sense than the wishy-washy cake-baking and gossipy C of E). Either God exists, or he does not. This is purely a matter of faith and you cannot prove faith with logic or argument. BUT if God exists, then this is such a momentuous and important conclusion that you have to live your life with this conclusion at the forefront of your being, since anything else is just to deny its consequence. Do I believe, or do I not? Do I believe that there is a Being who has omnipotent powers and who watches over us and judges us? No I do not. If there is a Heaven, I can't believe it is run like a nightclub with oppressive bouncers "**** off mate, you're not holy enough. And those are trainers". Some French guy once said, "I believe in hell, I just can't believe there are people in there". Do I believe that there might be something more than logic out there? Heck, quantum physics tells me there must be, since things seem to happen in that which deny any rational thought. And whatever you believe, one question remains "Why is there something instead of nothing?" (And far from God being a gooner, as I understand recent scripture, he is in fact a DJ)

rumbled!