Argument, debate or row - a talking point

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Argument, debate or row - a talking point

We live in 'happening times where there is a lot to discuss. How do Abc-bods feel about point of view and do we feel it reflects back to where we are from?

Where I am from - North London Jews, an argument simply meant a bunch of people chucking a load of views about. When I was young it was acceptable to say to someone I knew, who was my own age 'that is a load of rubbish' and then to say your own view. Both people would say what they meant and would still be friends. Some of this outlook has stayed with me although I have learned diplomacy.

I think that people who are more 'English' than myself, including middle-class people often try to avoid argument and debate because they see an argument as being close to a fight. Also perhaps some people see an argument as something that they have to 'win'.

This is not aimed at anyone  it's an open talking point.

Your views?

My husband's family seemed to find it hard to think of argument not being 'war', and so things were bottled up, and often resulted in bursting anger that was like war. My own family were open to say if they felt rather cross about something, or hurt, or frustrated, or annoyed. They knew it would be thought about, even if a bit grumpily, but wouldn't be taken out-of-propotionately, as expecting a flare-up.

These days there seems a tendency to throw around comments on current events etc, with no thought to listen to reasoned arguments, and debate trying to show points that may not have been thought of.   Rhiannon

 

Reasoned arguments are a good idea but sometimes everyone has their own 'reasons!'

I was brought up by parents who vigorously debated the issues of the day.  My dad did view 'debates' as gladiatorial contests, which he enjoyed tremendously.  It was all around the topic though, and never meant to be taken personally.  He would cheerfully tell you your views were bloody daft, but he expected you to fight your corner and shake hands afterwards.  

Later on in life I learned that some people regard a disagreement with their views as a personal slight, and I have learned to assess the situation before wading in.

Where possible I avoid on line debates.  Without the cues that you get face to face, it is easy for things to be misinterpreted.  I also don't get the point of a lot of it - for me the purpose in debating an issue is an exchange of views, with both sides possibly seeing a side of the argument they haven't thought of before.  On line exchanges seem to reinforce prejudice on all sides.  

 

Anything online means we don't hear the other person's voice or see their face which makes it harder to gauge the person's mood. Also if it is a heated debate where we don't know the other person things can get heated in a bad way. I try to limit my views when I am on Facebook.

english middle class and upper class peoples pathetic pov of being scared of honest debate and difficult political conversations is why england is quickly turning into europes first

Third world country

Stephen d

Ooh, I don't know. France, Germany and Sweden are all giving the Brits a good run for their money.

If there is hope, it lies in Italy. And maybe Austria.

 

Europe's first third world country? IMO there may be several competitors for the title. Mainly countries that I haven't had the urge to tourist about in eg Russia and Ukraine. However England has got its shortcomings and I suspect Brexit will make things worse. I hope there can be a last minute turnaround. We have strained Europe's patience but not yet to breaking point. I think they would still prefer us to Remain.

There must be some way to thwart the will of the people...

I wonder why Americans use the word fight when they mean argument? In England a fight means a fist fight.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Britain finds itself in a civil war soon. It's high time the working classes rose up and kicked some Guardian-reading middle-class liberal arse. Those snotty twats have really got it coming.

 

I doubt civil war will occur, the British have been, historically speaking, adverse to civil war. The Guardian is a joke, it is so ideologically polluted, that whomsoever it supports politically,  becomes toxic at the ballot. The Guardian's bemused and intolerant propaganda as regards Brexit, has entered the fantastical realms of Monty Python comedy now. There was an article yesterday, about 'Black People and Hiking'. That somehow 'outdoors' was a white thing, in some way racist. But, the examples they gave made me laugh out loud, it was beautifully comic. One lady, had not direct evidence of racism, indeed her partner who is black, happened to be a Park Ranger, so I gues he spends time outside, in the forest, but somehow the 'wilderness, the vast outside' and the forest are racist domains. Anyhow, she said she saw an old man, with an ice cream, he looked at her, so she stared at him until he looked away. Apparently, that was her best example of racism in the counrty. She eye balled an old man, eating an ice cream, her aggression was in fact, a clear cut sign of that old man's racism! So, her insecurity, unfounded and preposerous, is somebody else's problem, that somebody else being some old white guy eating an ice cream 'menacingly' on a hot day. You couldn't make it up!

Ah, but outdoors *is* racist. Every time you step outside your front door, you are exhibiting your hideous white male privilege, by showing your oppressive white male face in places where unsuspecting, innocent People of Colour (not "coloured people", which is racist) might see your face and feel oppressed by it. You ought to feel completely ashamed of yourself, of your gender and your ethnicity.

Staying indoors is also racist, because then you are not actively participating in the liberation and exaltation of People of Colour.

I wish I was just taking the piss, but actually that isn't such an exaggeration nowadays. The liberal left - whose tentacles are now firmly wrapped around Western civilisation - have gone completely insane, clinically deranged, in their tens of millions. In many ways they are even worse, even sicker, even more brainwashed, than the automatons imagined by George Orwell in '1984'.

However, there are still a few sane people left, and this is why I think civil war might be coming to Britain and the West quite soon. Nationalism is rising. Normal people are getting sick of **** ***** *** ******* ** ******* *** ****** (how very racist of them).

Freedom of speech is being curtailed more and more, and people aren't having it. The working classes are waking up. Could be interesting...

(Can I say that? Is that alright?)

 

Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have highlighted this aggressive Lefty totalitarianism, which is pervasive and growing. There were no social justice warriors when I am as young, just liberals. Disagreement was encouraged, we were all adults, we could deal with other people having other ideas about politics. 

These new wave illiberal Leftys are almost to the last; uneducated, illiteratilliterate and loudly hysterical. I watched one debate on Youtube. Where a white middle class women, lectured a young black male Trump supoorter, On what it meant to be oppressed and Black in America. My head boiled into a soup, she really meant it to. She was so insane!y vitriolic in her SJW virtue, that her righteous furore debunked his skin colour, on a debate relating to his skin colour. I

Well my friend, that is where we are.

We live in a post-fact society now. The people who dominate public discourse, those at the BBC and the Guardian, those in the Labour and Liberal Democrat and even the Conservative party, as well as the ordinary people who consider themselves "liberal" or "progressive", are no longer interested in reality. Not interested at all in what is actually happening in the world. To them, it is far more important to be seen as morally good, than to actually be factually correct.

This denial of reality is nothing less than a societal mental illness, a raging guilt complex felt only in the West by people desperate to atone for things like the British Empire or slavery or Nazi Germany, even if they themselves and their family played no part in those things. It seems to be a disease of prosperity, because it affects even Scandinavians, who never had empires or committed any genocides. Why do the Scandinavians feel such terrible guilt? Presumably it is simply because they have money. They have wealth and stability, and now they hate themselves for it. Insane.

At the end of the day it's all about making the sufferer of the mental illness feel good about themselves. It's not about philanthropy. It's just self, self, self. It's just me, me, me.

David Icke is a very interesting man, in spite of what he sometimes says about lizards. Check out his Youtube page, he's done quite a few very good videos in which he talks about the mental cancer that is progressivism.

You're right, there were no SJWs back in the 80s or 90s, or even in the noughties. It has all kicked off very suddenly, just over the last few years. 2014 was the year in which I first noticed that Western society had gone completely bonkers.

It only affects the West, though. You could always move to an Eastern European country, like Poland, as I am doing.

 

Hello,

I feel it is of paramount importance to engage this 'Leftist rhetoric', because it is fundamentally flawed and It's adherents are essentially substanceless. Some people assume the veneer of liberal, for it is perceived as socially acceptable. Thus, these people by chasing a false narrative, produce false modes of thought. However, you get a group of these shallow liberals together, say in academia or a government department or worse, a political party. They encourage and embolden each other's ignorance. My friend, moving to Poland is not the answer. Retreating is not the solution, engagement is! If we continue to cede poltical/social ground to this pervasive new wave illiberal post modern group think, we might never reciver. The Decline of the West, has long been envisaged. Luckily at the ballot, the majority participating electorate seem this illiberal post modern collectivism as toxic. But, this has only encouraged the Left to subvert democracy and empire social guilt strategies to cajole the masses into thinking and voting as the Left, think and vote. 

Unfortunately, mate, you can't argue with a mental illness. It's not possible to debate with such deep delusion.

They don't want to listen or consider your point of view. They literally just want to keep calling you a "racist" and a "far right moron". That's all they want to do. They will refuse to answer your questions, they will change the subject, they will insult you and morally judge you, ignore you, deliberately miss the point, and generally do anything they can in order to avoid having to deal with the facts you present them with or face up to their own hypocrisy.

They don't care about other opinions, and they don't care about democracy. Hundreds of thousands of them march in the street to protest against democratic decisions. These people cannot be reasoned with. They are brainwashed totalitarians.

Why? Because the truth is too much for them to bear. They cannot face the fact that they have lost the argument. They cannot emotionally accept the fact that their globalistic, multicultural, progressive fantasy world does not work. So they just keep shouting about how morally perfect and not-racist they are, because that's literally all they are emotionally capable of doing. They are overgrown babies. And it is not normal natural human behaviour, because if it was, then it would happen in Eastern Europe and Russia and China and Japan as well, but it doesn't. It's just mentally sick behaviour. How can you possibly argue with people like that?

The best I can manage is trolling. I just go onto the Guardian's Facebook page and simply say that whatever the article is about, is racist. "Cheese is racist", I'll say, and then leave. Bicycles are racist. Combing your hair is racist. Or I'll go on the Hope Not Hate page and keep posting this:

https://www.abctales.com/story/alfie-shoyger/i-hate-liberal-left

I don't read their replies anymore though. There's no point anymore. All any liberal leftist ever says when they open their mouth is essentially:

"blah blah blah I'M NOT RACIST blah blah blah I'M NOT RACIST blah blah blah I'M NOT RACIST blah blah blah blah blah."

Sometimes they throw in "I'm not a misogynist" as well, for a tiny bit of variety. Or "I'm not a bigot". All fascinating, scintillating, enlightening stuff, of course.

These people are beyond reasoning with. The only people worth engaging are the normies, the apolitical ones, the people who are just primarily concerned with getting on with their lives, doing their jobs, bringing up their kids, going on holiday etc. The people who don't particularly want to get involved in politics. These are the people we should be talking to.

As Orwell (peace be upon him) said:

"If there is hope, it lies in the proles".

 

 

Nobody is damned, well not yet. I'm the same way you resist Right Wing tyranny, so you must resist Lefty Marxist tyranny. Irrespective of what the Borg collective espouse, resistance is not futile.

The polemic of the new wave illiberal post modern collectivism, is to have you capitulate, to enforce upon you a guilt. Hence, the false accusations of white guilt, male privilege and the gender pay gap. Their strategy is to have you, 'no platform' yourself. There has never been a successful Communist country in the history of bad ideas. I mean, Russia, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, all diabolical failures resulting in oppression and millions of deaths. So you'd think the person responsible for such poisonous ideology would be shamed and ridiculed. No, there are still supposedly intelligent humans who revere Karl Marx. Socialism only functions via violent coercion, by the point of a gun. But, modern Marxist apologists don't need guns, they have 'white male privilege ' to beat you down with. 

You sound disheartened, but you must not be. Which is weak advice, but we can't prevail if we succumb to maudlin defeatism. If suggest some Youtube, Louder with Crowder is excellent, and Jordan Peterson is powerful. 

Nobody is damned, well not yet. I'm the same way you resist Right Wing tyranny, so you must resist Lefty Marxist tyranny. Irrespective of what the Borg collective espouse, resistance is not futile.

The polemic of the new wave illiberal post modern collectivism, is to have you capitulate, to enforce upon you a guilt. Hence, the false accusations of white guilt, male privilege and the gender pay gap. Their strategy is to have you, 'no platform' yourself. There has never been a successful Communist country in the history of bad ideas. I mean, Russia, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, all diabolical failures resulting in oppression and millions of deaths. So you'd think the person responsible for such poisonous ideology would be shamed and ridiculed. No, there are still supposedly intelligent humans who revere Karl Marx. Socialism only functions via violent coercion, by the point of a gun. But, modern Marxist apologists don't need guns, they have 'white male privilege ' to beat you down with. 

You sound disheartened, but you must not be. Which is weak advice, but we can't prevail if we succumb to maudlin defeatism. If suggest some Youtube, Louder with Crowder is excellent, and Jordan Peterson is powerful. 

You say that resistance is not futile and that running away to Poland is not the answer. But I’m not sure what it is that I could actually do to resist, or whether it’s even worth it.

 

Why should I remain in a country full of people who I despise, a country that totally alienates and depresses me, on the off-chance that I may be able to make a small contribution to its change?

 

This country has nothing to offer me. No meaningful work. No chance of finding a wife. The only women who are artistically minded and who read books, have all been to university and got brainwashed. Every woman I met at university was as boring as hell. Just a bunch of slogan-dribbling ideologues competing to see who’s the most politically correct. That’s our society now. Why should I stay here, putting up with that?

 

What could I contribute anyway? The only thing I can do is write poetry, but our society isn’t interested in poetry, or in publishing it. That is a clear marker of our decline as a culture.

 

I wouldn’t mind doing a show at the Edinburgh festival every year, in which I offer an alternative to the mainstream self-righteous liberal-leftist Guardianista EU-loving globalist narrative that runs through the arts. But I couldn’t do that alone. I would need at least another one or two poets with the same ideas as me, and willing to take on the system. Where can such artists be found, in this country?............

 

 

tumbleweed............

 

 

 

 

 

 

Artists, generally thrive when put to it by external oppressive forces, especially warped ideologies as we have come to see from the extreme Left. But essentially, do what makes you happy, buddy! 

 

Oww, the pain! I get the Guardian Weekly. Alfie, I am now on heart tablets. (spoiler - one of these sentences is a lie)

I enjoy debate, especially political debate. But we live in a peculiar time; for instance, 100,000 people take to the streets of London ENGLAND, to protest hysterically about the democratically elected President of a different nation, visiting this nation. But, nobody complained the Saudi Prince visited England, indeed the Guardian positively gushed over him and how 'progressive' he was, that females in his country, in 2018 might be able to drive cars and vote. We've landed probes on passing Comets and robots on Mars, many of those engineers were female, yet in Saudi Arabia, they begrudgingly get around to talking about the possibility of females being able to vote and drive without male supervision. Trump may not be my most favourtie guy, which is fine, I never voted for him, but...come on people, perspective much?

But read and hear news with scepticism. Believe me.

Stephen d

Further I think if I was to buy a newspaper it would be the gaurdian times or independantt basically any english broadsheet or the glesga herald is worth a mention.

Stephen d

Try criticizing the Saudi regime in the Guardian commets, you immediately get kicked off. Odd, almost like the oppressive and anti LGBT regime, sponsors and finances Islamic apologists in the Guardian.

What pees me off about England today is that is like the early 80's. Us and them, are you with us or are you against us? Back then I was in my 20's and I cheered for Scargill and booed Thatcher and went on loads of demos. No regrets - it was the enthusiasm of youth and Maggie was viler than Theresa and Scargill was more authentic than Corbyn.

Now I'm 61 and I'm damn sick of one side saying something, anything at all and the other side shouting them down because they are right so the other lot have to be wrong. It's tedious, it's pathetic. How about our politicians attempting to grow up and sit round the table working out a bit of consensus politics that keeps most people satisfied most of the time. Let's get real, this country needs sucessful business entrepreneurs eg to own and run hotels. It also needs the bartenders and cleaners, and yes we should get a better rate, my main part-time job is cleaning and we also need the customers.

That's my rant for the day. I don't even feel like ranting while the weather's this hot. I live near the sea and I'm going for another swim tomoz.

You are correct in that the us V them rhetoric is detrimental, but it is not new. What we have now in Western Society, not just the UK, are culture wars. A young girl tried to me lecture  me the other day, that there is no such thing as age gender binary. That I was wrong  for teaching my three girls that boys and girls are fundamentally different. She made a weak point that gender was a consequence of society. That notion is so astonishingly incorrect and plainly lacking in reasonable analysis, I was almost stunned to silence. 

 

Boys and girls are different and some this is biological.

Years ago, when I did my turn on the playgroup rota it seemed to me that generally small boys are more forward physically and small girls are more forward verbally.

However they are all 'individuals' and we should encourage children to develop their strengths and work on their limitations.

The same is true for 'grown--ups'.

I think that females are expected to conform more socially and the pressure often comes from our own gender. The one form of employment I have often disliked is female office environments. A bunch of battery hens picking one another to bits over petty issues.

Female retail environments and cleaning jobs have often felt more human.

Motherhood in my experience can been particularly toxic. Outside of our own friendships we have the constant pressure of being judged 'by a jury of one's peers.'

However post-menopause if we are still alive and have a bit of energy left I feel we get more leeway. Perhaps there is a social consensus amongst both genders that we have 'served out time!'