Homophobia

er not quite the end.... I had a very tough `discussion` the other day with 4 or 5 of my mates in the teacher training class where they were genuinly horrified, one girl almost in tears from the shock. I had explained that, I had had gay friends most of my adult life, one of my good friends who played sax in the band I was in died 2 years ago due to a hospital blunder. My faith in God and the bible meant `for me` that although my intention is always to try to be loving, to anyone whatever their sexual orientation, that the homosexual acts, sexual intimacy between same sex partners was blatantly going against the word of God. After the screams of bigot, and how could you be so ignorant. I reminded them that I was still the same person they had grown to like and respect, as a christian, and that I had a right to my views as much as they had, I had my `reasons` so did they. I believe the `church` has always fallen short of showing genuine love for those outside the Christian re-mit, but as long as we are not condemning in judgement, which is also against God's word, we are as entitled to our opinion as much as anyone else. THe `only` reason I mention this is because of my initial fear of being myself and upsetting the

( carrying on as it posted to soon) upsetting the `accepted position` on Homosexuality.

Morning

Now this is a proper topic. I've shared a house with a gay man (although he never got any action, other than from women who were in love with him and trying to convert him). I've also kissed him in public, although I'm not gay. I do have other friends who though didn't say so explicitly, it was apparent would not have been able to deal with this, for fear that he would jump them in the bathroom. Why straight men have an idea that gay men can't see a man without wanting to pounce on him is beyond me. I can't see that the noise would be any different particularly or that it would be troublesome. I think people are squeamish about what they imagine rather than homophobic. To be honest, most gay men I know, never engage in full sex. But Stuart makes a good point - homophobia isn't necessarily hating gay men or women, it is about being afraid of them. Even quite tolerant people can still have the fear that a gay person will force their "ways" on them. Which is transparently mad - the corollory is that Stuart can't walk past his female housemate without grabbing her breasts. Straight people alarmingly over-estimate how attractive they are to homosexuals.

Stuart W R, Hallo mate, I trust you slept well and are truly refreshed!

well for me there is no difference in overhearing homo or hetero sex ... the anal business is neither here nor there ... but if people find it distasteful then at least they don't have to confront this when thinking about overhearing hetero sex i guess ... i also guess if you push someone far enough however p.c they APPEAR to be you will uncover some kind of prejudices ... and can't apparent p.c.ness in itself actually be read as prejudice? witness this conversation i had in a bar: x: "who is that person over there?" me: "which person?" x: "that person in the suit with the dreadlocks" me: " you mean that BLACK person?" that made me laugh a lot ...

Actually I celebrated the Mighty Reds defeat of Salford United with a brace of Lidl lagers.

I won't presume you've got a hangover, but a good cure I've heard is to step outside in a fetching nightgown and pluck a hair from a passing mangy cur, `hair of the dog` and all that! Glad your team one. My Lilly whites are probably gonna get smashed by Chelsea tonight. Oh well pass the cherry brandy!

As usual your logic is rubbish. Fear and disgust are not the same thing. There are many things that disgust me (inc. some recent postings!) but they don't frighten me. Mark is probably nearer the truth, but what I find more disturbing is the way so-called liberal society bases itself on the destruction of all that it finds personally unacceptable. You and your like have a perfect right to accept homosexuality in any form, or public display, that you please, but you make the mistake of denying others the same right, to disapprove, and assume that you are somehow superior because of your beliefs. That is patent crap! I have several homosexual friends. I don't fear them; they don't disgust me. But I don't particularly wish to observe them, or any of my many heterosexual friends, with their tongues down each others throats in open displays of sexuality. Nor do I wish to be in the next room and have to listen to their bumpings and grindings, this is nothing to do with me being prudish or disgusted, but yes, maybe a little uncomfortable. I would also not wish to watch a blue movie in the presence of my parents or children either, does this also contribute to your blinkered view of society?

only in the OT though Mark, where all kinds of other stuff is prohibited which i'm sure you don't adhere to - all that not eating the bristles of a pig, and making sure your wife is regularly beaten before dinner and s.h.i.t like that. i see nothing of it in the teachings of Christ. it does reappear in 'converted on the road to Damascus' Paul, but Paul hijacked Christianity for his own ends - none of them worthy. then there's the fact that as same-sex sex goes on both in the human world and in the animal world, it would seem to be as much an expression of the nature of God as anything else. if, on the other hand, God imprinted a sexual orientation in his creation whose expression he expressly denied, he'd be a pretty peculiar kind of God and not worth worshipping. and then there's the argument of the freedom of the will (see other thread). how can it be just to pass judgement on somebody for something that they're not responsible for? or are you suggesting that people choose their sexuality?

It seems to me that 'housemates' in the original posting were being tolerant - in that there would inevitably be some who were not really happy with the idea of having a 'gay' tenet in their midst but were willing to tolerate it. I think that is the most we can reasonably expect - for people to be tolerant. Whether sex, religion or politics - it is fair and resonable to set limits on your tolerance. How many of us could stand "Des O'Connor sings Pavarotti" full blast at 3AM? All Des O'Connor fans will of course be convinced that I am Connorphobic - perhaps I am, but if you turn it down a bit and play it at a more reasonable hour.... I might be able to tolerate it.

yes ... andrew! what i hate is that comment that comes from straight blokes when there is a gay man around ... "backs to the wall!" in the same way that i hope a straight bloke wouldn't just apropos of nothing and without invitation just give me a jolly good rogering ... this assumption that a gay man will suddenly grasp a straight man and give him a jolly good seeing to really makes me cringe ... i think it DOES come from fear ...

If Homophobia is a `fear` of homosexuals, what if the idea of anal sex just plain distasteful, is finding something `distasteful` necessarily being afraid of it. I want to come out, I need to come out as I feel so often hemmed in by fear of the status quo, I think the idea of anal sex is disgusting with a capital pooh!

Oh yeah, sorry I was sidetracked, I'm not passing judgement, I'm expressing an opinion, There is a spiritual element that is hard to explain but is paramount in understanding God's word, I'e the `Spirit` of it. There is ione simple point chant. God is Love, Christians are supposed to be loving. God is also the bottom line standard of purity and Holiness and He has ordained that Sex should be inside marriage. Now before your blood turns to molten lava, I believe in the word of God, not just my liberal gut reactions to Society's standards. I had those standards for 28 years. No bottom line truth, just reactions to indigestion, personal angst, second hand ideas, thoughts beliefs. I knew, really, nothing. I see, I still know nothing, but I love and Know someone who does, he should, he created me. Finally, how can I judge? I can have an opinion though. At this point those who have heard the gist of this millions of times before, Hi!

no mark i think distaste and fear are different ... of course they are ... i was trying to find some logic in the fact that apparently non-homophobic people might not want to overhear gay sex ... i expect that if the details of a lot of people's sex lives were known then a lot of other people might find it distasteful to listen to them at it ... straight sex has been romanticised to a ridiculously pink and fluffy degree ... this makes it more acceptable ... and we can rest on our nice rosy images and not think about people getting down and dirty ... not an option with gay sex which in the general mind consists of taking it up the a.r.s.e. and nothing else ... which as andrew points out is far from the truth ...

but you haven't answered any of my questions, Mark! for He has also ordained that you not eat shell-fish (or not on a Thursday) or summat. do you also subscribe to that? and what about the contradiction in nature? and the question of the freedom of the will? i'm not requesting a liberal outlook here, but a rational one. less Evangelism, more dialectic please!

It's more than just the sex. It's a hatred of homosexuality, is hatred, homophobic? For thousands of years, especially the last 2000 years, Homosexuality was seen as perverted, sinful and a sickness. Only in the last 35 years or less even has it been seen as another sexual orientation, another shade of human experience. But 2000 years of being socially and culturally conditioned does not get changed over night , there needs to be an awareness of timing and understanding, the media hype says if you don't accept homosexuality as the norm then you are the warped minded. That kind of approach, in the end will have far more detrimental affect on acceptance of difference, than gentle honest dialogue, and an acceptance of people's true differences.

Ok, forget the anal. What about oral. What's the difference between hetro oral and homo oral? If you gay flatmate is having oral sex in the next room would that be allright? Because it's less noisy? Because there is less blood?

The difference between hetro oral and homo oral stuart, is one is same sex, and one is opposite sex. I would draw you a picture but I don't have the skill or the on-line facility.

stuart you are just being naughty now ... how would you KNOW ... unless there was a pre match announcement ... which is unlikely from either hetero OR homo flatmates ... "stu ... just popping into the bedroom for a quick blowjob in case you are wondering ..." .... unless you live with some odd people ... which doesn't actually surprise me ...

Hi Mark, glad to see you're back on form :-)

Hi Mississippi. Chant I apologise If you think my answers are lame. Having read a few of your threads you are obviously, intelligent and erudite. Believe it or not I am not strictly `Evangelical`. Contradiction in nature abounds, I believe we do live in a `fallen` world. Proof? 2ooo years of man growing in technology and still not being able to get past greed, murder, self-interest. We are glorious ruins, with the potential for genius for good or murderous diabolical bad. I don't judge a person by their minds, but by their `whole` life. They might have just won brain of britain, gone home and smacked the wife, heavy negation! I believe in a greater mind, a greater plumbline above my own. Oh yeah, shell-fish, have you also forgotten boiling goats in their mother's milk that's also illegal.. Believe it or not Christians do have brain cells and do understand about the New Dispensation, i.e The New Convenant. Jesus did not preach against Homosexuality and nor do I. The Holy Spirit who enlighten's the word of God shows me in Romans , Pauls Letter, that HE(being God), in Judgement basically let people get on with it, that's the Judgement, you are at liberty to contravene God's holiness, that's free-will. Anyway I like you, in a virtual thread like way, God Bless.

I remember a joke about a famous DJ coercing a young female into giving him a BJ, she proceeded with "Hallo Mum, Hallo dad! while holding his proud upstanding organ.

Ok, well never mind. I just think it's interlectual lazyness and it shows that intolerance is rife. It's just another of those things which makes the planet a tedious place on which to live. I suppose I'd better get back to slagging The Mighty Wiggins. Vodka-Red bull please barman.

How do you spell intellectual?

i remember when i worked as an English teacher in Monza, our Language school rented out two apartments for the teachers to live in and it worked out that the 'straight' teachers were in one apartment and the 'bent' ones were in the other. in the 'straight' house, there was this Northern guy who used to get drunk every night and say to me 'come on, Chant, let's just go over to Vimercarte and beat up those b.l.o.o.d.y queers.' it was an obsession with him. in point of fact, 'just' going over to Vimercarte was out of the question, because it was b.l.o.o.d.y miles away. anyway, the 'bent' house used to have a party every month or so, and we used to drive over to Vimercarte to attend it. and every month, at the party, this Northern guy would insult the queers, ask intimate sexual questions, get very drunk, and end up trying to shag one of them. the moral? i think homophobia isn't so much a fear of the sexuality of others, as a fear of one's own sexuality.

Mississippi, surely you must appreciate the difference between someone sitting on a sofa and watching two people (of whatever genders) having full sex or even seriously French-kissing and someone in the privacy of their own room having sex. Stuart's point is that the same people would not have raised the objections they had about heterosexual people possibly having sex in their own rooms. Everyone is perfectly within their rights to not want to see something that makes them uncomfortable or that they think is best done in private (and actually, buggery with a third party present is still a criminal offence in this country). As a liberal, I have to believe that everyone is entitled to form their own views on the question and not be thought less of by anyone else no matter what their views, but it is an interesting point. How hard do you have to scratch the surface of a tolerant person before the traditional attitudes come out ?

glad to be (virtually) liked! have no particular affiliation to the beliefs i have other than that they are the best ones my reasoning can come up with. if you can come up with better reasoning, i will gladly exchange mine for yours. i also believe that God exists, and honour Christ as a 'great' man, but don't think we live in a 'fallen' world. in point of fact, i think the world is improving slightly in some places, and it's certainly preferable to be 21st century man than Neanderthal man. the Adam and Eve myth is, like much of the OT, deeply unjust. for not only is all life Eden-time punished for their sin, but all future life. clearly unjust that other species and future humans should be held responsible for the crimes of another. i think the world is an expression of God and it is terrible because He is terrible. i don't mean terrible in the sense of bad, i mean terrible in its Latin sense - something to be feared. i remember seeing a fox with mange tearing lumps out of its own flesh in an attempt to alleviate itself of the burrowing vermin. this is an expression of God. terrible.

I have nothing really to add on this thread, other than I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Fishwife... my best friend Dave is a gay man, and I have more of a problem with the fact that I might hear my best mate shrieking and groaning, than the fact that he would be doing it with a man. Regarding the "backs to the walls" comment, heres a poem that Dave wrote about that very thing: http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=6628

A bunch of cannibals moved into our flats the other week. I didn’t mind at first since they had promised they would only eat each other. The problem is - try as I might - I can’t get used to the sounds of death: the screams, the death rattle..... I know I should be more broadminded but I can’t seem to change what I feel inside. I know the modern approach is live and let die but..... Oh, I’m such a failure!

Nothing of value to add to this thread.. just some observations: 1) Funny how many statements from straight men start with.. 'Some of my best friends are gay., but...' 2) Being a man, and perhaps with a general insight into other men's instincts on sex, stemming from ones own feelings.. I would suggest its not surprising that straight men eye gay men with a little nervous suspicion.. 3) Whereas I dont think I would have too many problems with the original scenario.. May I state here that I find 'campness' (despite having many good friends who are gay, I hastily add) an unattractive mode of behaviour.. uninteresting.. unfunny.. cant quite grasp British fascination with that sort of behaviour and all that inuendo stuff. Am I alone??

i dont know 1leg ... most of my friends are camp even the straight ones ... i thought i would add ... like liana i have a very close gay male friend and he doesn't mind telling me all the details (as i tell him mine) ... and he went through a very bad period in his life when he was cruising and cottaging a lot ... the thing i found hard was the number of men who were taking part in these anonymous sexual activities in toilets and lay byes who were in fact married ... he reckoned a high percentage ... he told me one story which affected me ... it concerned a man who came for that type of sex and when he drove off my friend noticed he had a baby seat in the back of the car ... society forces so many people to live such double lives ... and i feel sad about that ...

yes.. have heard the same, many many times from Dave.

I think Graham Norton a hoot, if that's what you mean by camp, but I do not know him personally. I watch his show maybe one hour per week, find it very funny, and that's that. I think a steady diet of watching guys swish around the room, pulling faces in front of mirrors, and the like, would become tedious very fast. Unlike most of you, I don't have any gay friends. I'm not homophobic. I just don't have any friends. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point. I've never understood this homophobia thing. It was very intense in America for many years. I suppose it still is, but nowadays, it is quite hip to be gay in America. That won't last long, but right now it is. Homophobia seems to be largely a Christian invention. The ancient Greeks and Romans saw nothing unusual about same-sex sex. I had a female acquaintance years ago ask me if I hated gays. She wasn't asking because she thought I did. She was asking because so many of her male acquaintances did hate gays and I suppose I was the only person she felt comfortable asking about it. I told her I don't hate gays and don't really give a damn one way or the other, provided they're not shoving their "gayness" in my face all day long to make a point of some kind. I make no pretence about loving all of mankind. I don't. You go your way. I'll go mine. That's my idea of a wonderful world. I firmly believe everyone is entitled to form their own opinion and retain possession of it. They are not, however, entitled to have that opinion taken seriously simply by virtue of possessing it, nor are they entitled "not to be thought less of" by virtue of believing something. I hear opinions expressed all day long that sound like absolute shite to me, and when I hear the same nitwit expressing a string of stupid opinions over a significant enough period of time, I will think less and less of him (or her: let's not forget the female nitwits) to the point that he dissappears completely off my radar screen.

i agree 1leg. i find campness pretty uncharismatic - it's too forced and artificial. i don't understand why we love it so much here. i think a lot of gay men assume it as a personality in order to fit into some kind of group and declare their sexuality. i wish they wouldn't. and i reckon all the bis and straight-acting gays hate being grouped under that 'hello sailor!' stereotype. i really don't see why sexuality seems to matter so much. people seem to spend so much more time obsessing about sex than actually doing it. i mean, who gives a s.h.i.t. who you sleep with?

Andrew, I appreciate all the points made but do you appreciate that there isn't much difference between being uncomfortable with a visual spectacle and being uncomfortable with an aural one! In fact to the over-imaginative person the aural scenario could be even more disturbing. I stress that I am not homophobic; as I am sure you aware a phobia is a fear of something and I am certainly not fearful of anybody on account of their sexual proclivities. What I do find a little annoying is that as is the case with other (sometimes minority) groups, those trying to push the boundaries of social acceptability become enraged when they meet resistance, claiming intolerance and persecution etc. The more liberal attitudes are not the only ones, and may not even be the most acceptable to the majority of society. All those wishing to live in civilised society are obliged to abide by general social rules and if in disagreement with them, either live elsewhere or change them by democratic means. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all the 'rules' are fair or sensible, just that at any given point in time they are what we use to moderate our behaviour. There are rules in my house, as there are in yours, that we, as arbiters of acceptable behaviour in our own homes, insist are abided by. In the case of Stuarts domestic arrangements I find it perfectly proper that anybody wishing to share with those already there should recognise and accept the status quo for that community.

So homosexuality is on a par with cannibalism then mykle?

Now I'm really confused. Mark way up above somewhere says oral is hetro and anal is same sex. Sez who?

Let's hope not big un. I have some very dear friends who are cannibals. * smile * I was just trying to make my point in a light hearted way. Hoping that people could put themselves in that imaginary position and better see other points of view.

Something that bothers me is that it always seems to be men who have the problem with homosexuality - why is that? (hoping not to sound too sexist):0) I have always thought it funny that some men think a gay man will automatically fancy them - I mean what would be the point in a gay man fancying a straight man?!! Would be like me fancying Ricky Martin!! :0)

Yes but someone playing Des O’Connor top blast at 3am is being unreasonable. Someone having a loud orgasm is probably not to blame. I don't think that kind of tolerance is acceptable at all. It shouldn't be something you tolerate because you have to but rather because there is nothing wrong with it. Would your response to the above be the same if you changed the "gay" in "some who were not really happy with the idea of having a 'gay' tenet in their midst but were willing to tolerate it" to "member of an ethnic minority" (probably should get rid of the tenet bit to makes more sense)?

Surely blokes can have quiet orgasms too (or muffle them in pillows)? I think that the person having the orgasm has *some* responsibility in the matter! I mean, there may be the occasional time when it really *can't* be kept reasonably quiet but ending up screaming every night would seem either incredibly lucky or rather thoughtless. Having had one flatmate who was incredibly noisy (and whose girfriend was into talking dirty *very* loudly) and another flatmate who was into spanking so you'd frequently hear loud giggles and slaps at 3am, I may be a tad less amenable to this than others. Although not sure whether either of these were more annoying than the flatmate who played loud *music* from 3am-6am every night (it was Puff Daddy which she claimed was soul music. Personally, I think calling it soul is an insult to Aretha! But I digress) The noisy shaggers were definitely more embarrassing when my parents stayed over though...

Exactly Emily, who wants their parents to have to listen to the sounds of a sport they no longer play! And Sebastian, I find your remarks about people not being to blame for noisy orgasms, and others tolerating them because there is nothing wrong with them, extremely arrogant and selfish. Other people have the right to be considered too, but you obviously think your carnal desires take priority over them. Further more I don't see what ethnic group the participants belong to has to do with it.

don't think that's true, Sarah. think women have problem with it too. and think women have bigger problem with lesbianism than men do. just depends which sex it is that feels under threat.

What exactly is your definition of a bigot then big un?

Ricky Martin is gay!?!

I agree with your attitude Chant.. God is neutral.. the only thing that matters to him is entertainment.. Meaning is not out there to be grabbed, it is relative, it is what we create in how we lead our lives..

Well i can only speak from my own experience chant and I might well have it wrong. But most of my male friends do have a problem with gay men whereas most of my female friends are quite happy to sit beside a lesbian couple in the pub. Maybe it is just my friends though?

Eh, I didn't mean that Stephen I was being Ironical about Stuart's question about the difference between Homo and Hetro Oral sex. Obviously, practicaly, physically, there is a difference, that's all.

Live Live Live a thousand times and let die on some occasions... sometimes we have to put water in our wine..... people are drunk with their beliefs. He who is without sins may sling the stone first..... (stone age is still here) oh, and Christianity is another issue. sorry Mykle cannot agree with you on this one....... Jesus loves all and saves all George Michael Let's go outside is a pop answer to a pop issue....... (allegorical post by the real skydolphin :o))) )