Feedback Sought

Good to get a reply back from you, Mercury. I admit I am slightly surprised to hear that you are female, it did read very much like a male fantasy. Something that crossed my mind was: yes, the guy is clearly enjoying himself but what's in it for the woman? I'm sorry if my comments have been a bit harsh on somebody's first attempt, but I am in a writer's group where we tear each other's work apart constantly and I think it has made me very honest, however perceptive (or not) I may be. What I was getting at was this: When we write a story we are necessarily selective in what we include, if I describe a man walking down the strteet I don't tell you the name on each shop sign, whether he is wearing lace-ups or elastic sided shoes and how many ciragette ends he passes on the pavement. Genertally speaking I try to select what is relevant to the story and is going to be interesting to the reader. Usually this will include his thoughts and intentions, where he is going and why, what he is feeling, what his motivations are in walking down this particular bit of street, and so on. Perhaps his age and appearance are relevant, or his past history or whatever. So these are the things I will concentrate on. You seemed to pick out slightly peculiar things to tell me about, things which I would not normally see as relevant or interesting. Now you might do that for a purpose, for example to make me see things in a new way, but if there isn't a conscious purpose it seems like an odd thing to do. I hope you will keep on writing and if you do a rewrite on this piece I will be happy to give you feedback again. I would suggest you ask yourself what the purpose of the piece is, what you are trying to achieve by writing it, and then see if you have achieved that purpose at the end.

ohhh. damn! Its gone.. I was so curious.. From your description Sirat..the excerpts.. and the Mercury's own admission.. it reads like a sexual fantasy that has been played out over and over in the mind and now translated directly into text.. ..where little real but normally inconsequential details like door handels, precise locationing and glances in wing mirrors make all the difference to the fantasiser when setting the scene for the thrills about to happen!! So, not to be reviewed as a narrative piece at all! But as a sexual fantasy.. Please put it back on Mercury in its original form so we can judge for ourselves! As for what the women gets out of this? Well she has constructed the whole world and exactly how it unfolds.. ..is that not the ultimate sexual thrill!!

Just coming in on your very last point: Yes, 1legspider, but I thought it sounded more like the kind of world a man would have constructed for himself, it seemed to be told from the man's point of view and he seemed to be the one having all the fun. I hope Mercury will put it back so we can go on talking about it. Maybe she just wants to do a rewrite.

He.. he.. Methinks a man would miss out all the real world scene setting stuff and get straight to the action with the two babes and the goat.. Hmmmm. but then some women have really wild fantasies.. But seriously, Mercury, put it back on and let your real audience, women, comment on your piece..

Dear Sirat and 1legspider (great name by the way) As requested, I have put my story, The Night, back onto ABCtales.com unedited and in its original format. I have read both of your comments with interest, and would like to say something to you both on these, if that is okay. Firstly: Sirat - my boyfriend also told me that the story sounds as though it was written by a guy, hence it sounding like a male fantasy and not a female one. As to your point Quote: ...the guy is clearly enjoying himself but what's in it for the woman? Unquote. Well, to me, the guy I'm writing about is 'the' most beautiful and sexist man I have EVER EVER seen in my life, and although I like to think myself as being dominant, when thinking about him I'm literally submissive. As for what would be in it for the woman - i.e. me, well, that is the fantasy. Is this making any sense at all? And as for 1legspider - as the expression goes, you hit the nail right on the head. It is a sexual fantasy, one of many I might add, that I have played out many many times in my head, but wanted to get it into text, for obvious reasons probably known to me. As for the 'too much detail' involving the car, I was trying to set a scene for what the story was leading up to. I have a problem in my life in that I can't accept something just being 'there' - I have to know how it happened/got there/&c.. Like the mystery of the universe, earth, animals, people &c.. Just 'being here' isn't enough information to me - I need to know the before bits as it were. Is this making any sense at all? Also, I would like to thank you 1legspider for what I consider to be a compliment, when you said that it is the whole world and how it unfolds, and that is that not the ultimate sexual thrill. Of course this is my story and I can be bias, but this is exactly how I wrote it - just a fantasy being unleased in text. And for the record, in my story there is only one babe - me!, and there are definitely, most definitely, no goats, or other animals, involved. Thought I should make that clear! Thanks again for your comments on my story, and as always it is always good to read them as your comments/advice do help me. Take care. Cheers for now. mercury X

its good.. one small crit only... try not to use the same word twice in quick succession, it pulls the reader up. i noticed the words *sly* and *moan* used together very rapidly, and there may be more. if you havent written anything before as you say, then you are bloody good. have you thought about submitting it to cliterati? its an erotica site (primarily for women), which is very close to our dear editor emilys heart (and mine, as i write for it also).... www.cliterati.co.uk go for it. look fwd to reading more...

Can't help speculating: if men's and women's sexual fantasies are more or less indistinguishable from one another when we take the trouble to write them down, maybe there's hope for human sexuality after all. Maybe a lot of the time we actually so want and enjoy the same kind of things. No, that's far too optimistic, must be wrong.

i think that they are not so different sirat.... take a look yourself at cliterati.. i remember writing a piece for the site and being told that it was *a typical male fantasy* seemed pretty typically female to me....

Hi Liana Thank you very much for reading my story and commenting on it. After resubmitting it I reread it, and have to agree with you that there is quite a bit of repetition, something I will remedy with the aid of my trusty friend the thesaurus! I would also like to say a big THANK YOU to you for your compliment, when you said that I am *bloody good* for someone that hasn't written anything before. That in itself made me feel good, and it has given me both confidence and encouragment to restructure/rewrite/a this story, and maybe to write other stories. Sirat: For some reason sex has always been a dangerous line to cross and talk about. It's a stifled topic, only to be 'acted' out to procreate and not to be talked about. To some people talking about sex IS oral sex. Yawn yawn. To me, men and women are only different biologically. I believe deep down that men and women DO have the same sexual fantasies, including 3somes (oh God, I think I've just crossed that dangerous line!), and sometimes, just sometimes, a woman's sexuall fantasy is more explicit than a man's, basically because a majority of men want to act out the same fantasy time after time after time. I'm not surpised alot of women like gay sex! Oops, another dangerous line. Thanks again, your comments and advice are always welcomed. TTFN. mercuryX

I'd agree - women and men have *a lot* in common when it comes to fantasies. Sex is universal. And it's entirely possible to have fantasies where the centre of attention is your partner(s) rather than yourself. Some people *like* giving pleasure as much (or more) as receiving it. The majority of the work submitted to cliterati is explicit, and although the site is run by and written by women (men can submit work for the 'fantasies by men' section) , we've been accused of being men on several occasions because 'women wouldn't like *that* word' or *that* fantasy. Usually it's men levelling the accusation... It's annoying (and outdated) when people assume women wouldn't *want* to read good, honest filth. Read Nancy Friday's studies into women's sexual fantasies to see what women *really* get off on (I did my dissertation on women's sexual fantasies and I guarantee it's not all roses and romance) Her books are eye-opening (and the amount of grief Nancy Friday describes getting when she did her initial research at the beginning of her book 'My Secret Garden' shows how recently female fantasies were a taboo) OK, I'll get off my soapbox now... Cheers Em

please stay on it. the past two thousand years or so have been characterised by women not saying what they think (about abstract or ideological issues - i'm sure they've done a lot of plain-speaking about domestic issues), or even being encouraged to think at all. in my view, you've got at least two thousand years worth of speaking (from the soap-box) to do, and i am listening.

it has always been expected that women do not have strong, meaty (no pun intended) sex lives. take a look at the terms for a woman who sleeps with more than one man; slag, slapper, tart. a woman is told from a very early age *he will not respect you if you sleep with him/give him what he wants/let him have his way*women do not masturbate, women do not like to view/read porn, and if she should stumble across a stash under her husbands side of the bed, she should faint clean away. its unrealistic, its a downright lie, and its something that women have been fighting against internally (again, no pun intended) for years. Imagine, having a great sexlife, a healthy curiosity about sex, and a desire to fulfil fantasies. after so many years of this kind of conditioning, wouldnt you think you were a freak? the tide IS changing, but it takes hard work, and a subtle yet persistant education to change it. more power to your elbow emily (btw, the new piece you requested for cliterati is almost ready!!) Liana

Cheers. BTW, mercury, looking back, I didn't give you any comments on your piece. Liana's right - it is great. The thing that comes across clearly is the sense of anticipation - something deeply sexy and difficult to capture in words. The level of detail is good too - rather than just 'she fancied him, he fancied her, they groped each other a bit then had sex' it's the personal details that make it interesting: "When she got to his throat she paid particular attention to this Adam's apple, something she had always been fascinated with and therefore had developed a fetish for over the years" "She moaned in response, pulling his shirt out of his trousers and stroking his waist and back with her fingernails." The word 'deep' is overused and the dialogue could do with a bit of a tweak - although a lot of 'real' sex dialogue sounds contrived when written down so this isn't a big criticism. - And maybe you could suggest her slyness rather than state it - she could perhaps look him directly in the eye, maybe raising an eyebrow, whilst continuing to do very rude things? For ease of 'pervy reading' (ie, if you want it to be used as masturbation material - something that anyone writing erotica/porn should be aware of, whether you like or hate the idea of it) a bit more paragraphing would be good. And it seems to end a bit abruptly - this could be sorted with paragraphing - ie, "She moaned and reared her body up as a wave of ecstasy ran through her. He licked her clitoris, and then again, and pushed his tongue deep inside her... She gasped, reaching out to hold onto something for support that wasn't there. " Alternatively, you could put some kind of closure on it - ie, they finish what they're doing and part never to see each other again/go home and thank the babysitter for giving them an evening away from the kids/start at it all over again. Something to just finish it off a bit more Phew! Hope this helps. Got to get to a meeting now but I *like* this discussion!

Hi Emily Thanks for reading my story and commenting on it, especially when saying that *it is great*, something I see as an encouraging sign - thanks. Since submitting my story onto this site I would like to say that I am grateful for peoples attention to it and most definitely their feedback and advice, as this helps me to develop the story more - of course, and hopefully better. After reading peoples opinions/criticisms/&c., including yours, I do happen to agree with what is said about repetiton, something I do have serious intentions of working on. As you so rightly said Emily, the story is 'something deeply sexy and difficult to capture in words', but I hope with time I will be able to develop this, and better! I have read Nancy Friday's 'My Secret Garden' and found it very interesting, mainly the sexual fantasies of hetrosexual women in relation to lesbianism. I have also read the one she wrote about men's sexual fantasies (I think it's called 'Men in Love), and also found interesting the sexual fantasies of hetrosexual men in regard to homosexuality. Besides big blonde buxom women whose legs go up to their armpits, and 3somes (2 women and them), I don't think men's sexual fantasies can stretch any further than that when it comes to women, but if they do then I would like to hear/read them. Might make good reading. My opinion is that my natural law humans are not hetrosexual - I'm not. It is something in our social up bringing, especially from our parents, that tells us that homosexuality/lesbian/bisexuality is wrong, and that you are damned to hell if you have sexual fantasies with a person of your own sex. Well, I'm still here, so either hell doesn't exist, or it isn't wrong! I would like to point out Emily, something I don't think I did at the initial submitting of my story, that it isn't finished - but has been submitted unfinished. I just wanted to get people's feedback/criticisms/advice. I'm enjoying writing it, mainly because of the person I have in mind, so it certainly keeps me flowing. I mean going!! Here's to sex. May long it reign!! Until... mercuryX

No probs Mercury - I enjoyed it. I think you *have* captured the sense of anticipation which is the thing that is 'very difficult to capture in words' - no mean feat (I see loads of erotic stories every week, for obvious reasons, so I know how rare it is) In terms of fantasies, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Some of the submissions we've had to cliterati have been ...surprising. I'm pretty broadminded but we've had stories submitted that erred on the 'extreme fetish' side - giant anthropomorphised (spelt wrong, I'm sure!) badgers having sex with giant anthropomorphised bunny rabbits springs to mind. That was one we didn't 'print'... Lesbian fantasies are very common and very popular. We also recently got asked by one of our female members to include some gay (male) sex in the bi-stories section as she got off on them. We ran a poll and found a third of people visiting the site wanted them. So I'm now looking for anyone who could write good gay sex stories involving men with a female observer/participant... I think you're being a bit harsh on men in terms of their fantasies - 'Men in Love' contains a lot more than the traditional 'blonde bird/3some' fantasies. Certainly, the fantasies we've had submitted to the 'By Men' section of cliterati have been more diverse than that (although the 3some/buxom type etc are very popular themes with a lot of men!) A fair few of the stories have been quite tender and less 'hard core' than some of the stuff submitted by women. It's a shame that you feel that parents/society say homosexuality/lesbian/bisexuality is wrong, and that you are damned to hell if you have sexual fantasies with a person of your own sex. That *so* isn't the way it should be. I think sexuality is flexible - the old 'sliding scale' thing. Some people like men, some like women, some like both, some like neither. A lesbian friend told me 'I like cock but I could never have a relationship with one' She sleeps with men from time to time but considers herself lesbian. Conversely, a straight friend told me she'd happily write an article on muff-diving because she loves it but could never go out with a woman. She considers herself straight, not bi. Everyone is different and chooses to label themselves in different ways. Society is still homophobic (conversely, the gay community can be heterophobic / bisexual-phobic) but hopefully this will change - and the sooner, the better. Re: you enjoying writing the piece, having someone (many people!) to 'inspire' you is *always* a good thing when writing porn! Long may sex reign indeed! Cheers Em

Hi Mercury.. finally read your piece.. and loved it. Am glad you put it back on without editing. As others have commented.. you captured the sense of anticipation well which for me is half the fun.. real foreplay.. when the decision something is going to happen has been made.. and it is unfolding step by step with each partner feeling the other one out.. I like the unwrapping of and exploration of patches of skin a bit at a time.. very sexy. As an aside.. I am always interested in that moment when things hang in a balance.. then a woman thinks 'I am gonna have him' and what makes her mind up.. perhaps something he says or does unconciously.. and the deliciousness of how she conveys that to him.. but enough of my fantasies.. please women write more about these moments (now this may be unconciously done.. but lets shine the torch of awareness on this very sexy moment) I would like to have known a little more about the characters meeting perhaps.. and why this event was a a bit of a departure from their normal behaviours.. and some sort of closure.. I will look forward to the rest. .. and where was the Goat?

First of all, for the benefit of anybody who wants to read it, the story is here: http://www.abctales.com/abcplex/viewStory.cgi?s=18190 Essentially it's the story of a sexual encounter and very little else. Like a lot of erotic writing I thought it was a bit flowery and unreal in its description of "the act", but the sexual bit was a lot better than the opening sentences which seemed strangely distanced and factual. Example: "She walked to the passenger side of the car, he opened his door and got in, and unlocked the passenger door from the inside, pulling the latch to release it. She got in and closed the door. He started the engine, put the car into drive, looked in the rear view mirror, and when there were no other cars, pulled out onto the road" Maybe it's just me but this seems more like some kind of report writing, or a piece of evidence given in a court case. It concentrates on peculiar little details that I would be quite happy to "take as read". It's not exactly description, more like factual recording in the notebook of a private eye. Maybe this is intentional but if it isn't it's a bit odd. As the scene gets more erotic, the character of the writing changes somewhat and we get passages like: "They looked at each other intensely, a sly smile appearing on her soft lips, and then she very gently moved down his body and lowered her mouth over his organ, very gently licking the tip of his shaft and then enveloping her mouth over the whole of it. He leaned his head back and moaned in ecstasy, " It's getting a bit more like conventional erotic writing here but there is still this apparent quest for exact factual description of what is going on. I think it's an intrigueing style but I'm not sure that I like it all that much. I keep wondering if there is some reason why it needs to be written in this way, whether the author is making a point of some kind about distance and alienation. I don't know how to assess it, I just find it a bit strange.

Hi Sirat Thank you for taking the time to read my story, to which your comments have been duly noted. First of all I would like to point out that I am new to writing and this is the first piece I have written and submitted in any form. In reflection I have to agree with what you said. I am a chick and the word that made me feel itchy was 'flowery' - I hate that word. I've also been talking with my boyfriend about my story, and he has given me his opinion also, saying that the woman sounds 'swoony', as though she can't wait to be taken by this guy, which is kinda strange coming from me when I'm a bit of a feminist. I feel as though I have let myself down there. I read the piece that you quoted from my story in your e-mail, and made a mental note of your commments on this. As I have already said, this is the first time I have written and submitted a story, and therefore am not sure on the wrongs and rights of writing, but will admit that I understand where you are coming from (if this is the right terminology to say) and have to agree with you that it does sound like a report/notes from a p.i's notebook. Reading it from your e-mail has made me wish I had not written it, and have intentions of doing something about it, either rewriting it or deleting it altogether - I'm not sure yet. I know that it needs alot of work, and I will be the first to say this, but I hope over time it does get better. Again I thank you very much for your time in reading the story and commenting on it, and your comments have meant alot to me as they have helped me to look at the story in a different way, to which changes will be made. Thank you again. Regards mercury