Well here goes:
This one is outside the box, and almost outside the www given the length of this thread, so read fast before it falls off the edge of the internet:
There was a print version of ABCTales in the beginning for a while. I think that could be revived economically and expanded in the following manner:
Create a periodic (say quarterly) journal of stories and poems from the web site. Add some interviews or commentary that's relevant.
Distribute this journal for free in specially selected hotels around London (initially...gotta start somewhere), preferably the ones frequented by publishers, media types, etc. :))
Pay for it via advertising/sponsorships. Given where it will be distributed, that might be easier than it sounds.
This would not be extraordinarily expensive to test out, especially if limited to say one hotel at the outset. Limited runs of pod digital printing are fairly reasonably priced. It does not have to be all slick paper like the original model. I would opt for something very simple that perhaps even has an early 19C look and feel to it. You might even be able to make a (small) profit. By distributing into select 5 star hotels initially you'd be hitting a high value audience. Make it selective, almost a collector's item.
This will in tern drive more traffic to the web site, while also getting some people into print.
And...this can be customized regionally at some point. I am thinking about doing something like this here in Poland, but making it a Poland/Czech/Hungary publication. There are several little literary journals in Prague, but they have almost zero distribution. Besides, the quality of much of the writing in some of these things is suspect. My idea is to collect writing from expats or visitors (think of Liana's journals from Prague) and combine it with translated works from interesting locals. I soft-pitched this idea today to the managing editor of a local monthly English-language publication in Warsaw and she seemed to think getting sponsors and advertisors would be possible, as long as I didn't need huge amounts of money. Her publication is 10,000 issues per month, mostly given away in hotels for free. I wouldn't put one in every room, so the print run would be much less.
Anyway, it's a thought.
This is typical, innit. Someone can be hounded by trolls and constantly made to look foolish, receive reams of personal abuse, and that's not a problem. But if it's an "ism" abuse, oh right, time to get tough.
Abuse is abuse, David. Put down that copy of the Guardian, and get with the programme.
God, listen to me!
Sorry Tony. Couldn't resist.
Ok, I'll say it, tho' troll wasnt me... your post paul, was fine, a good response (tho' not one i agree with), until you started in with the guardian insult.
I am interested to know what is acceptable debate, and what is bullying. Maybe a new thread? This isnt the right one.. I'm interested though, because you and I seem to see it differently Paul.
Paul, whether you like it or not you are one of the most vociferous bullies this site has ever seen. You shout your gob off at everyone you disagree with. Who do you think you are ? Me!
Geez, I looked at this thread when there were 8 posts; since then I've been busy trying to polish up the chapter I've been asked to write for a textbook (don't ask), now coming back to the thread it's way over 100....
....Nothing to add on the tech side right now. I think Elfyn's 8 and 9 would be a huge help to the site right away. Those two points have been sore for a long time.
I've offered this before, but I'll do it again: I can put spoken word recordings on my own web site (there are already some from ABC's early days read by Tony and another reader) and ABC can link to it. I also have the ABCtales Rogues Gallery of photos on my site, so people can look at that any time....or submit to me their own pictures (of themselves!!).
Now back to work...
Elfyn, is your surname Megalomania? If it isn't I should change it by deed poll right away because from the way you talk you're eminently qualified for it!
i have had another thought. perhaps new members could have a smiley face icon placed against their work in the last 10 entered list. this might be a way to attract readers to their work, and might offset the reader-funnel effect created by the cherry icon.
1) can only post on the forums if logged in under a viable screen name. if not logged in, user may view but not post.
2) 1 - 5 ratings system to be replaced by Good, Very Good, Excellent. (what use is it to tell someone they're c.rap with a 1 star rating, and too much abuse of ratings system - too many people forced to switch ratings off). you don't need to be logged in to rate.
3) comments boxes on work that you need to be logged in to use.
4) you can't post a piece of work without having left a comment first. for each new piece of work you want to post, you have to comment on someone else's work first.
Good post Chant. Ditto everything unreservedly except 4. People who don't see criticism as their thing will choose a piece at random and rate it without actually reading it - it'll just be a formality to them, an extra couple of keys they have to press.
I agree Chant and Paul. Comments on each piece, WITH each piece. Always optional but you'll find most people have something to say about what they've just read directly to the author.
I think every single one of Chants suggestions are counter-productive and are tantamount to censorship and/or manipulation in every area. If you really want to f.uck this site up listen to him.
Martins suggestion however is something the forum had needed since it's inception.
Elfyn, I like the sound of you, not least because you've got the same name as my cat and he's also a bit sleepy.
Where he has the edge, though, is in the leg department. He has one more than you.
A passing motorist stole his other one.
I'd like to see something that stops users rating 1* over and over again, but I dont care about comments boxes. On almost all sites Ive seen it implemented, all you get is "fine work" or "really moved me" style comments which are worse than useless, and usually only placed there by pals anyway.
i also dont want people to have to be logged in to post - it stops the casual user popping on - which was how i started.
And i think that Chants fourth suggestion is dreadful. forcing people to comment before they can upload? argh.. thats verging on dictatorial... abc is about everyone having the right to post their work, not some book clubby writers group that demands something in return.. can you imagine how long it would take a story or poem to load if people filled the boxes with reams of "really moved me" comments that they would put just to be able to post. Thats a overestimate - it would prolly just end up being "jjksafdacxdvssdf" so that people could move on and get their work up as quickly as possible.
Brr.
I like ABC's simplicity and style - it is bare bones. It does what it says on the box, to use a cliche. I like it's mission... which many people seem to forget in their haste to get as much out of it as they can.
I would like to see a BETTER ratings system though - 1 - 5 stars is less than useless.
another idea...
if you wish to post more than 10 pieces on the site, for £x you have to subscribe to y number of issues of abctales magazine, a monthly magazine which contains what editors consider to be the 20 best pieces of the month posted on the site.
site members can either choose to delete their tenth story each time they want to post a new one, and thus keep posting new work on the site without paying anything, or, once past 10 posts, subscribe to the magazine.
i suspect a lot of people will choose to subscribe in the hope of seeing their work in print in one of the magazines. extra copies of the magazine can be ordered for £x to give away to friends etc. this has the advantage of being useful marketing material for abc - hardcopy to give out to publishers / the general public at large, and people don't need to be embarrassed about their own work, as the magazine will contain lots of pieces by other people too.
Other ideas on my wish list would be:
1. If you put a URL in a posting, it should be automatically converted into a clickable format.
2. When you look at your own articles, the hit count should be unaffected.
3. All ABCtales pages should be submitted to the search engines (assuming that is technically possible)
4. There should be a whodunnit category - ie detective fiction.
5. Writers should be given greater control over the formating of text for stories and poems. I am not always sure how things I post will appear on screen. At the very least a tutorial showing you what you can and cannot do might be helpful.
6. There should be a preview mode to allow you to spot formating errors before you post a story or poem to the site. This would eliminate a lot of repeat submissions from people like me.
7. And finally, there should be a facility that tells us if a Mississipi posting is meant in anger or in jest. I think I've seen both tonight, but I'm not sure. Can you please arrange, Elfyn.
But I want to post all my work here.. and even allowing for the fact that I am not writing anything at the moment I cant afford to pay to do it. its an impossibility... its all i can do to scrape enough to pay the Friends of ABC.... so many people wouldnt be able to get their work up... it's a good idea for raising funds in a perfect world, but incredibly restrictive for us.
Is there a good way to take that?
After seeing this thread this morning and then seeing past and present abuse in these phorums I felt the need to try and stop it. There's been quite a lot of in-excuseable malice here, and I only spent 10 minutes looking, so I expect there's more.
I agree with Chant on all points. Perhaps new users should be able to post, say, ten pieces, or one set, before they have to move to a comment-before-you-post mode. Maybe just one piece, to discourage multiple accounts.
With regards to point 3, I think author's should be allowed to delete comments they view as abusive. This would render the likes of "crap, as usual. Get another hobby" pointless.
Surely, Missi mean's 'open' to manipulation, not tantamount. I can see ways in which that system could be abused, but I think it would be obvious.
I don't see how it verges on censorship - confining someone to one forum identity isn't censorship. You can say what you like, but must take responsibility for it.
Taking away the option to slag someone off with a one-star rating isn't censorship either. If they feel very strongly that a piece is no good, they should give the author constructive advice, or keep away. It isn't censorship to bar them from trying to get at the author - they are free to complain on the forums, to their friends, or in any other public domain.
I don't see how any of these suggestions would scare away anyone who isn't intent on abusing the site.
Yes to Martin's suggestion too. And some of my own:
1) The option to preview your work, as Liana has suggested in the past.
2) The option to edit your work without reposting it.
We will take a look at all of these suggestions BUT - a lot of the debates generated so far are the old ones and whilst we will re-examine them and certainly take one or two on board - what we really want are new and original ideas that will send us all into ecstasies!
Don't come back on the illustrations debate! We may have a way round it for a limited number of illustrations but we are looking into it now.
A few questions?
Do you want a polling facility?
How would you like the ratings system to look - would 1 - 10 with a genuine average shown be a good idea?
What kinds of goods and services would you like to see be made available on ABCtales - and that you would buy!
Come up with the extraordinary that we may not have thought about - we trust in your perspicacity!
Re. comments boxes. I've found the one's on UKA to be very helpful. Even 'really moved me' is encouraging, while the one's I mostly get give me more detail, either on what people liked, or what they felt didn't work. It's much less hassle than copying the web address and flagging it up on the forums, or even emailing the user, so more people use it.
Granted, ABC has more users than UKA, and so you may get a different reaction.
Not sure about Chant's last suggestion.
Gasp, Missi....insulting the techie is *not* the right way to go about this!
If it was anything other than the Internet, trolling would not be considered acceptable behaviour. What do you think about people who send hate mail through the post? Last month a black doctor complained about a racist article in the Mail, putting his address with his letter. In response, he received a barrage of racist hatemail.
Is that freedom of speech? It might be honest, Missi, but honesty should be a virtue - a facet of people who have the courage to say what they believe - not something that vindicates this kind of behaviour.
What about back-stabbers? People who attack from behind? This is traditionally, and rightly considered as unacceptable and cowardly. If we can make it impossible, we should.
If you term what Chant, Paul and I have done on this thread as 'bullying' then we need to come up with a new, more severe term for what trolls do. Terrorism perhaps? Because frankly, it's apples and oranges. You can't level down the extent of the damage they do by saying that three people posting strong opinions on a general aspect of the site are engaged in the same activity.
I'd forgotten all about the illustrations debate ;-)
What would we be polling?
I like Chant's ratings system - good, very good, excellent. Nothing that allows for direct and malicious slagging off. Slagging off must be indirect - while direct feedback should be 100% constructive, criticism specific.
Goods and services? I'd like a book-binding service, if such a thing were humanly possible. ABCTalers could order printed, bound copies of their sets. Erm...ABCTales socks. I'm running out of socks. ABCTales bracelets and bangles, as I've been told such things would suit my willow-thin wrists. ABCTales phone covers, as I might get one of them mobility-telephones at some point in the future. Bonsai trees.
The thing that sets this site apart from others is its almost complete freedom to post what you like and say what you like. I vehemently oppose any moves to control forums or comments, perhaps if people can't live with unbridled opinions they should read 'Sunny Stories' instead of ABC.
My major beef is that if I post a new story it often ends up sinking like a stone under the weight of dozens of poems (often by one person) and amendments to existing work and I wonder whether it was worth posting for the number of people who read it and the very few who rated it. Ditto if I've been away I miss new items by my fave authors.
So yes please to comments and editing without reposting (unless you want to).
Also how about splitting the new items into poetry, stories and a miscellaneous category for opinions, reviews, rants, etc?
A separate category for inspiration points so we can compare
different approaches?
A daily limit on the number of posted items per person?
Search by category AND date posted so you don't have to read all the As first?
I'd like to see some editorial censorship on trollwork; respect anonymity if necessary as long as it's worth posting but don't allow unfunny abuse or lots of gratuitous swearwords-with-dots-in which detracts from the site as a whole.
Come on guys; look a ways up the thread where pip pip declared the trolling topic over....the friggen war in Iraq was less contentious....and shorter...
*steps down off soapbox*
I vote in favor of being able to preview.
I vote again offering a lot of formatting options. I think the simple text format we have is fine. It is also consistent with the very simple overall look and feel of the site, suggesting a focus on content rather than form.
"its all i can do to scrape enough to pay the Friends of ABC...."
the idea was that this would replace the friends of abc, and maybe cost less because many more people would opt to do it.
"can you imagine how long it would take a story or poem to load"
perhaps stories could just load as the story and the comment box (but without other people's comments). comments would be sent to a separate page only viewable by the author.
"it would prolly just end up being "jjksafdacxdvssdf""
abusers could always be outed in the forums, i guess. but one hopes most people would be more decent about commenting on other people's work. even if it's only a 'good', it's some kind of feedback. how many writers does abc lose each week because they don't feel they get any kind of feedback at all on their work?
I'd like to see a system that ranks the popularity of articles or poems afresh each month. Rather than the present system which gives an all time ranking.
This would help to bring new articles and poems to the fore each month, rather than the same old works which have just been around for such a long time that they have an unassailable lead.
Under the present arrangements a poet may produce an outstanding work but it could take years for his or her poem to get into the top 100 (you have to have more than 790 hits to achieve this at present and the threshold is rising all the time).
I am not saying the current leaders are not worthy of their position but I suspect once they have made it past a certain level they have a built in advantage. How many of us haven't at some point clicked on one or more of the top 100 articles or poems just out of curiosity.
My feeling is that having a top 100 that kept changing every month would help to freshen up the site and add an extra element of interest.
Agree with Bruce, and Neil - on the importance of the possibilites he suggests, though some are preferable to others. And again, Chant's reply to Liana is convincing.
"The thing that sets this site apart from others is its almost complete freedom to post what you like and say what you like."
None of Chant's suggestions get in the way of this as far as I can see. With a login-and-post system, would-be-trolls have to take responsibility for what they say, but it doesn't bar them from saying it. There's a limit to the freedom you allow people, and they reach that limit when they abuse their freedom. People should be free to say what they want provided they can face up to it, just as they must take responsibility for their actions. It's the same as the difference between handing out money and giving people the freedom to earn it. I think the effects of unbridled freedom to post and upload as frequently and lazily as possible, in terms of the membership we lose, are greater than they would be if conditions were set. Nothing proposed is Draconian - it just calls for people to put in more.
Bruce,
1 is easy and there should be no problems with that, 2 has been talked about today and I've had 3 on my mind since I started. Perhaps an Agatha Christie section may suffice? ;-) I can work on 5, and 6 is a good one that's come up quite a bit. And 7 I will definately be working on. ;-)
Thanks for your input and thanks to everyone else who dragged their hands away from their quill's to add to this thread.
Merchandise: abctales jersey boxer shorts, those longish snug fitting ones. Oo they'd be me favourites.
Neil, there are always very simple - if slightly unscrupulous - ways of getting your work back to the top of the heap. Not that I've ever endulged. What I'm saying is...when somebody has resubmitted, and pushed you down the list, check how may "amendments" they have actually made. Get my drift?
My pet beef: that bloody spike. I know it's a necessary evil, but why must your piece go beneath subsequently posted pieces in the list. Sometimes, your piece never sees that all-important last ten. It's simple: when it comes off the spike, it should go to number one.
Not sure this will be popular but i think the ED's should be a little bit tougher when rewarding peices of work, and perhaps explain to the newer subscribers just why it is they have been rewarded with a cherry ( that it's not the Pulitzer prize) and maybe a comment or two to guide the author if there are a couple of technical flaws in their work.
I was on another site yesterday, where the author defended their ABC cherry picked peice against a reader who was making comments about the authors technique and use of language, who was in my opinion offering genuine constructive advice.
The author maintained that the comments were unjustified because the peice had been cherry picked on ABC and ABC wouldn't reward technically flawed work.
I mention this because it got very heated and personal, and also very public because of the comments system employed by the site.
on this particular site readers very rarily vote(scale of 1 to 10) but are more inclined to comment but again only slightly more.
Ive been thinking about this logging on to post business. Forgive me if i am being naive, but doesnt two open browsers, each logged in at the same time offer endless opportunities for trolling???? Id rather see an IP tracer thanks.. that way we can nab them from admin.
:o)
I have work on several sites (5 to be exact), a couple of them allow comments and I can see that some people see them as helpful. On one of these sites the comments I have garnered are ok I guess, though I don't actually see them as critical advice. The comment on the other site is really only a list of short praise without any real qualifying reasons in the main. As ego massaging material they are perfect if that's what you want. Most of the commenters appear to be Americans and I think they have a different idea about comment boxes to start with. Anybody that wants to give honest criticism or praise would be better accepted if they did by way of private email, that way it doesn't have to bruise anyones ego in public and would be more likely to be heeded. The REAL problem is that hardly anyone is prepared to dissect work and tell the truth as they see it. If it's 'crap' what's wrong with saying so? A constant stream of sycophancy is pointless. It's no use whinging if someone is telling the truth. Trolls however sometimes pursue their business deliberately to annoy or to say something they feel they can't say in the open. In some ways trolls are more honest and truthful and has been said in the past are frequently amusing. I've lost count of the times long-time members have said to me in conversation, 'God, the bloody forums are SOOO boring! Where are all the controversial arguments?' When there is a heated discussion afoot the interest increases exponentially. In short, the trolls are great fun as long as they don't get too abusive and disruptive. In any case it's easy to register several names, with different email addresses and even different ISP's and IP's too. It's common knowledge here that I am not only Mississippi but also Ladywriter and Pendragon. There is no way I want this site sterilised, I'd sooner be the target of every troll there's ever been on here. Hold on, I have, haven't I?
Just as you don't see yourself as a bully, I don't see my remarks as insults.
John, the fact that Elfyn happens to work for the site doesn't give him immunity from criticism and also doesn't make him divinely right either, if he talks what I interpret as shite I shall tell him.
Please don't make it compulsary to subscribe to ABCtales, because if you don't have a credit card or cheques it would make it impossible.
I'd like there to be ABCtales competitions more often if that's possible.
It might be an interesting idea for users to get e-mail alerts when their favorite authors submit a piece (...although that could aide in forming cliques, couldn't it?...)
What I'd REALLY like to see, though, is to seperate the star-rating system. Instead of seeing "3 stars from 5 users," I'd like to see "5 stars, 4 stars, 4 stars, 2 stars, 1 star" ... and who rated me.
I must mention that I share some of the concern above suggesting to limit the freedom of the site. As Missi says, it's still subject to abuse. Also, I don't like the idea of forcing someone to comment. More than likely, if someone comments on their story, they'll feel somewhat inclined to go read one of your pieces and comment on it. Making this a pay site is also a mistake (in my opinion).
When I look at an author's abc set, I would also like to see a cherry icon next to the pieces that got cherried.
Surely the forums are a very minor part of what the site does as a whole. The number of people who post on the forums compared to the number who submit and read work is rather small. It was a bit predictable that a thread like this, posted on the forums, would end up being hopelessly forum-centric whilst missing the bigger picture. Abctales isn't set up for cocky gobs.hites like my good self to put the world to rights and puff up like an adder whenever someone dares to disagree with me, although the forums do provide me with an outlet for that should I so desire (and I often do).
It's about the work, and so any improvements should focus on:
a) making it easier/more inviting to read
b) making it easier/more inviting to submit
The front page seems to me to be the key to this. At the moment there are several links that just link back to the front page. It's one big wasted opportunity. As a shop front, it's cack. As a newbie or a veteran, I want to be seduced by all the choices on offer, I want some established favourites and a grab-bag of unknowns, I want charts and top tens, I want SF, adventure, detective, diary, poems, I want, essentially, to be enticed into losing myself in the sea of literature *that is already there*. Incidentally, the asterisked bit was the important part.
However purist you want to be about art for art's sake, you have to sell the material to people, even if it's free, or they ain't gonna click on it!
By way of balance, I do love the site as it stands. Whatever technical jiggery-pokery might take place, without the diligent efforts of Tony, Mark, the editors et al, it would be nothing. So, y'know, hats off to you, kids. Thanks.
Pages