Trolls are only funny if they're impersonating someone famous (for the same reason, presumably, that Dead Ringers and Double Take are funny now and then.) Whatever it takes, whether it's Chant's suggestion or Liana's, they should be accountable. If they can only say something under the assurance of anonymity, then they shouldn't be saying it. It's not as if they're going to be brutalised or killed for an opinion - it'll just make them unpopular if they act like dicks, which is fine. I've had to put up with having unpopular opinions - as have you, Missi. Why should trolls get away with it?
I don't see any problem with the forums being boring either. It's smacks of whingeing, "Why are these people talking about things that interest *them*? They should be talking about things that interest me!" There are plenty of times when I can't think of anything worth saying on the forums, or where the subjects seem tedious - it just gives me more time to do other things, usually more important things at that. It's not as if trolls are interesting anyway - they f.uck up every thread they get their hands on usually, except the ones people have started themselves specifically for trolling.
I think Missi also underate's ego-massaging. The ego needs to be gotten out of the way - it is not easily ignored. Most writers, I would imagine, just need it satiated to the extent that they stop worrying about how 'good' they are and can get on with the practice of writing. So a handful of comments to the effect that they're doing their 'job' of entertaining and moving people is just what people need, to an extent.
Proper criticism is proper criticism. Saying a piece is crap, whether it is or not, has no merit whatsoever. At least saying it's good is encouraging. Saying something is good has *some* limited use. Saying something is crap has none. Doesn't matter whether it's honest, true or whatever - it's a complete waste of everybody's time. You are either specific about where you think it failed, where it could be improved, or you shut up. I say things are crap all the time (TV, for example,) but I keep it to me and my friends - it's *my* issue. It's between those of us on the receiving end. The creators of what I think are crap can judge their success by who thinks it's good. Only 1% of the country watch Big Brother, remember, and that's considered a success, despite the other 99% thinking it's rubbish.
Why should trolls get away with it?
They shouldnt, but they DO. there is no way to stop them. logging in as someone else is easy... i have two addresses and usernames on ABC, and one I use so that no one knows when I post work under this name... I can log in easily under any of them, in less than 30 seconds. You think that's going to put a troll off? It isnt. Be realistic.
IP tracing is the only way, and even then, you have to hope that *the troll* will respect the wishes and not post again. You can ban IP's but as Missi says, they are changeable. I think it's time that the whinging about trolls stopped - they are a fact of life...like Sun Readers, people who fart in lifts, celery eaters... If getting rid of trolls was easy, it would be done. If the only way to do it, is to lock the site up, then forget it. Im with tony and missi - freedom of speech is paramount..
can we concentrate on something else? Final check pages Tony please... this would be sooooo useful... that way we can see how formatting looks before its uploaded.
Hen, it occurs to me that you may think the last post is directed at you, re whinging - it isnt. Have whinged re trolls myself at times .. its a general post... sorry.
Agree with Donignacio on the cherry icon, that's always puzzled me...
With regards to merchandise, Bruce has some interesting points. Am curious to know if there'd be a market on the site and/or the possibility to sell creative writing books? Not a huge range or anything, maybe just a couple, but then if you continue to advertise the bookplace in the future, that would be redundant I guess...not really a proper suggestion, just occurred to me...
I think rather than a typical merchandise range of pens, mugs, t-shirts etc, books or booklets, featuring work/the best work/whatever from the site, might sell better? (although I'd be up for pens...you can NEVER have too many...)
I disagree with you John, saying something is crap, as long as it's an honest and genuine opinion, is just as relevant and useful as saying something is good. Just because it is the antithesis of ego-massaging doesn't make it useless. It may well be that the writer receiving the 'accolade' may re-read and agree, thereby drawing something from the criticism. A system that only allows for praise or so called constructive criticism is so unbalanced as to be a waste of time. Yes I know you won't agree; I have no problem with that, it's just one of the things that make you John and me George.
Trolls don't have to be impersonating anyone to be funny, sometimes they're funny for no other reason than because they ARE anonymous. Anybody that can't cope with a certain amount of wry trolling has an insecurity problem as far as I can see.
Echoing the thanks of Rokkitnite to TC (Top Cat :-), Mark Brown et al.
My suggestion, and apologies if it's been mentioned before, is that when you come to 'galleries' via genre and various other categories, you always see the same old pieces at the top, due to the tyranny of the alphabet.
Rise up you Y's and Z's I say. Unleash the M's and N's!
i.e. is it posible to 'randomnize' the letters, so it's not always the A's which come out on top, like some infernal Yellow Pages, which only encourages AAAAardvarkism
I thank you, and best wishes to all contributors and staff at ABC, who, whatever the occasional failings, make this the best damn literary site in the cybersphere :-)
Thanks Rokkit - I agree.
The links that ping back to the front page, are as a direct result of the features section being stuffed up for a few months - that'll be changing soon.
"If the only way to do it, is to lock the site up.."
am not really clear why it's 'locking the site up'. every time i click on the site, my name and e-mail address are there all ready for me. it's just a question of freezing those things, rather than making them modifiable as they are now.
if you're considering joining a site, you take a look and see if it's to your fancy. if it is, you take up membership and join in as a member of the group. what's so debilitating about this?
too often, it seems to me the trolls don't join in in any constructive way at all. they contribute nothing but bad vibes. they complain about threads, but never start any themselves, they complain about posters, they complain as if self-appointed gods of the site. it is as if regular site members exist solely to entertain them.
and who are all these random browsers so desperate to post, but not take up membership of the site? i can't remember *anyone* like that in the time i've been on the site - i mean, someone new who has had something constructive to say, but who hasn't wished to leave a viable e-mail address.
i know that Stormy was fond of using pseudonyms, and if the trolls restricted themselves to his brand of whimsical humour, then there certainly wouldn't be any need to alter the forum in any way. but i think that too often, the trolls haven't been funny at all, they've just been deeply unpleasant.
i do think there's a good case for saying that unlimited freedom isn't freedom, it's licence.
Don't be daft, Missi, we're not talking about "wry trolling" (which has its place) , we're talking about the horrendous, abusive, confidence-destroying trolling which sporadically plagues this site. You can laugh it off, try and sweep it under the carpet, but I am prepared to stand up and be counted here:
Never in my life, not in fourteen years as a school kid, as a teacher, or in any work place or friendship group, have I seen such concerted, relentless attempts to make individuals feel sh.it about themselves. You can talk about what Ralph's done in the past til you're blue in the face, I don't care. The truth is, Ralph did what he did because he could. And the trolls who hound him, as he tries to make amends, do it because they can.
You can all me a melodramatic drama queen, signed Outraged from Manchester if you want. The truth is, opinions like this are the reason bullying exists in society: "Oh, it's just a laugh. What are you gonna do?" This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna keep gobbing off about it til an effort is made to reduce it (not eradicate, Liana, but you know you can reduce it...other sites have). Then I can get some sleep at night.
Ultimately, Hen is right. Freedom of speech is fine, if you're accountable. Freedom of speech without accountability is more freedom than people can handle.
As usual chant, you see what you want to see, just because you don't think they are sometimes amusing doesn't mean they aren't to others. Most, if not all the trolls are regular members who start threads under their registered name and then troll themselves, do really think they are a separate clan? You can't demand that everybody plays to your rules, it just won't happen.
Stormy WAS fond of using pseuds?
As someone who spends more time reading stuff on ABC than writing I think there's a couple of things that could be a bit better:
'Browse by...'
It'd be great if you could browse by more than one category at once, so, for example, you could narrow down the list of stories to 'cherry-picked' 'crime' stories 'sorted by date'. As it stands at the moment I find myself having to flick through pages of stories I've already read to get to new(or old) stuff that I'm interested in.
Font size
It's a real pain the way you can't resize the font that the story is presented in using the 'text size' option on your browser (other stuff changes size but not the story - why?)
Forums
Agree with martin_t about popular posts (or most recently updated posts) going to the top. Can't see the prob with trolls - ignore them if it bothers you (sticks and stones etc).
Rating system
X number of stars by Y readers is really uninformative - did half love it and half hate it, or did they all think it was so-so?
IMDB.com has a thing where you can see how many users gave each rating (eg 7 gave five stars and 7 gave one star, or 14 gave 3 stars...)
Aside from all that though, great site - it'd be a shame to lose the simplicity for the sake of lots of minor improvements...
If I hear "sticks and stones" one more time, I'm going to flip. That is the vilest excuse for being a lazy shite useless git in the face of somebody screaming for help you can come across. Try telling parents of kids who took their own lives after persistent mental abuse "names will never hurt". It's also a lot easier to say if you've never been on the wrong side of it, or you have, but consider to have "pulled through it".
Funnily enough though, most of us would like to think of ourselves falling into either category. The truth is, we're talking about human beings, vulnerable, and not as many of us fit into those categories as well as we like to think. Even if we do, we can't expect everyone else to be like us, and just say, "Get a thicker skin".
If we recognise bullying hurts others - even if we claim it doesn't hurt us - than we HAVE to do something about it. If you have no interest in doing something, I don't understand you.
Paul, go and lie down son, you're traumatised. And if you think you are going to change the site after being here for five minutes you're sadly mistaken.
I agree with Rokkitnite.
ABCtales as a whole - but the front page in particular - should be redesigned around the needs of the most important reader of all - the first timer.
We need to put ourselves in the shoes of the first timer and understand the experience they go through when they arrive at the front page.
What are they looking for, what questions do they have, what concerns might they have, what might confuse them, what might capture their attention and hold it?
Two things that should be added to the front page are:
1. a highly prominent button that says, 'I'm new to ABCtales what do I do now.' or words to that effect. This would then take you to the most painless, user friendly, step by step guide to how you get your work onto the site and all the good things you can gain by signing up.
2. a button linking you to FAQs. And we should really ensure we choose the questions that are most likely to be asked by the newbie.
Something else that should be changed about the front page is the first menu that you see which currently looks like this:
Read Stories
Public Gallery
Story Gallery
Poetry Gallery
Story search
Find an author
Last 10 entered
Random story.
To a newcomer - and even to an old-timer like me - the terminology is a bit confusing. Sometimes 'story' is used to mean anything submitted, sometimes it is used to mean prose submission as opposed to a poetry submission.
Also what is a public gallery, how is it different from the other galleries, why is there a story search but not a poetry search, why is there a random story but not a random poem, why as a newcomer should I bother with any of these?
I'm a great believer in humanising websites. I would like to see a few pictures of people on the front page. Maybe the author of the month, maybe the editors, maybe even Tony!
NOT JUST THE FRONT PAGE
But newcomers do not just land on the front page. They may well first discover us by reading one of the poems or stories. We need to make sure therefore that the design of the story/poem pages is geared to the needs of the first-timer.
We need to understand the mindsets of the different types of first timers who visit us and at every point on the site provide them with clearly signposted pathways to addressing their needs and achieving their goals.
The rest of us, who already know our way round the site and understand the benefits of membership, are of secondary importance here.
I've got to agree with Missi. I've been on another site where every piece was open to comment by its readers and 99% was genuine comment with no malice. If someone thought a piece was crap then it was put as constructively as possible but it was just as valid as saying it was moving etc.
Let's not forget that you don't HAVE to leave a comment as many didn't but those that did helped many writers to get a feel for their work.
I'd rather have good and bad comments than none at all.
Ahem, I haven't been here long but here are my suggestions:
Upload no more than one story per 12 hours. This to give people a chance to be read.
Last submitted lists show one-line description, genre, cherrification and word count (in tiny font). These also visible when looking at an author's set. There are so many stories that anything which guides readers has to be a help. Eg perhaps I'm in the mood for reading a longish diary entry today.
Do away with 'number of times read': it's a meaningless statistic which only serves itself.
Yes to the option to write comments: if people want to write bland or meaningless comments then they'll just look silly. But no to forcing people to comment before they can post.
10 star rating. I think it is as useful to be told my piece is crap as it is to be told it's good. Of course it's best if someone is specific, but stars are better than nothing IMO.
Yes to preview of story before posting, and yes to being able to edit/arrange without reposting.
Editors can't see who a piece is written by when they read it (perhaps this is the case already?)
The words The, A and An at the start of stories don't count in alphabetic terms in story titles.
A new 'stories of the week' page. Lists poems, stories etc by genre and by most rated and/or cherried in the last week. This would be an answer to Bruce's concerns.
I would like to be able to buy ABCTales posters which say "HAVE YOU WRITTEN ANYTHING TODAY?" ABCTales alarm clocks which poke a pencil in your face to wake you up.
A story's page to have a link which says something like 'write about this story on a forum'. Clicking on it takes you to the discussion forum and automatically slots in the title, author and URL. Erm, maybe.
yes, i agree with Rokkit and Bruce! support the first timer! i did once suggest a separate phorum for new arrivals where they can introduce themselves - some people are clearly quite happy to jump straight into one of the main phorums, but others may need more encouragement.
Not traumatised, Missi, I just care about this. And though you seem to forget I've been here since around sept/oct of last year, your comment is very telling. Basically you're saying, "We're the old guard, we run this show, like it or lump it, it's our way or the high way, not having some little jump-up upstart tell us what to do." Very military, Missi, but not really the original point of this thread. You were in the armed forces weren't you. Another hotbed for institutionalised, tolerated bullying...
...maybe you could tell us about some "character-building" stories from your days in the Merchant Navy. Or are you so far in denial - on this I don't care, I don't let anybody else get to me, my opinion is all that matters tip - you're storing them away in a very dark part of your brain.
That may well be true. It's a fine line between standing up for yourself, making sure you get your way, and verbally pole-axing people. I walk that tightrope every day at my work.
But I have never intentionally - least not persistently - made somebody else feel worthless.
It's this persistence, this relentlessness that brings people down.
This is what I want to see tackled.
Jesus god I can't be the only one can I.
And no, I wasn't in the armed forces. the Merchant Marine is a commercial institution not a military one. And for what it's worth, I encountered no more bullying there than I have in any other walk of life.
I am not saying any of the things you suggest. What I am saying is the forums have worked perfectly well for over 2yrs now, yes we've had a few upsets, big deal. The trolls have a code that most adhere to. The trolling is confined to the general discussion forum. The serious writing forums are out of bounds and that has become an unwritten rule. Sometimes trolls get out of hand. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen!
You're over-wrought Paul, becoming paranoid about a problem which is definitely nowhere near as bad as you're making out, at least not on this site among adults. You're passionate appeals to the almighty won't earn you any Brownie points either.
Okay, I've heard enough of the platitudes, and I don't want to fall out with you again. Nor do I want to hijack the thread any further.
Last word time: Whatever your own experience is, the forums have not - least not while I've been here - worked "perfectly well". If there's bullying like I've never seen in my thirty years, they are by my definition NOT working "perfectly well". We should stop putting up with things, and aspire to the forums working MORE perfectly well.
The trolls certainly do not confine themselves to the forum. I've seen plenty of attacks on the writing forum (Ralph told his work was sh.it by some vindictive little coward; Hen's face laughed in when he received harsh criticism from secret agent) - and even the writing tips forum (newcomer Drew Gummerson given a kicking for harmlessly trying to pass on some ideas - again because he's "only been here 5 minutes" I suspect) - and even if they did keep it there, that's not the point. Do you think we say to the kids at school, "Bullying's fine, just keep it in the playground" ? Do you think we say, "Some bullies get out of hand. If you don't like it, go to another school."
I respect you as a person, a fellow polemic-deliverer, and a writer.
But your attitude about this stinks.
I think sheepshank has a point with this:
"Do away with 'number of times read': it's a meaningless statistic which only serves itself."
What do you think?
(At least with my tales, I am the primary person who 'hits' stories.)
'a highly prominent button that says, 'I'm new to ABCtales what do I do now.' or words to that effect.'
Genius. 'New to abctales? Click Here' or 'First timer? Take the Site Tour'. How good would that be in hooking people? I agree Bruce. That sounds like a very robust, implementable suggestion.
Oh, and a much more minor point. How come descriptions of pieces appear in the galleries, but not in the set lists? Is that just a deliberate aesthetic thing?
Quite, and you know what the main difference is: you have to have SOMETHING to be a bully at my school. You have to be able to dominate others, be prepared to take hassle from authority. This is the problem here: any little pr.ick who knows how to change a name can play at being a bully. No come back from anyone, the victim, their friends, the management. No wonder it's a problem. You may laugh, but people are living out fantasies here.
It doesn't matter if we're talking about my school, this site, or anywhere else in the world - I speak generally when I say - it needs to be challenged.
Ok Paul, my last word for tonight. I'm sitting in my computer room here at home. I have three computers of my own here, all working, all connected to the net. There is a fourth computer that belongs to my son. Between us we have three ISP's. I have access to seven other computers at the library 200yds from my home with a different ISP. I have 2 brothers and one friend all within 5 mins of my home that also have net access on different ISP's, and I sometimes use a company computer in Southend. How the f.uck is it possible for anyone to stop me trolling in any goddamned name I wish? Do you understand now?
I understand you're changing tack from "what's the point in change?" to "We can't change".
Making it more difficult, not impossible.
Reduction, not eradication.
And if it turns out we didn't reduce, we at least had a moral obligation to try. If someone shows me verifiable stats that websites have by and large failed to reduce it by taking these measures, I'll give up the ghost.
That sounds great Liana, as long as they are both placed prominently at the top of the page where click-happy, site-hopping first-timers can't miss them.
Something else that occurs to me, how about a link on the front page to a series of short testimonials from satisfied users. Each could focus on one benefit of the site. It might be another way of selling the site to new users.
On other websites I've been on, (ie www.newgrounds.com) the rating system works on the basis that the more you rate, the more value your rating has in terms of how it affects the average, and if you are registered it has even more effect. It also adjusts the value of any 1's or 5's you give to compensate for people who either rate a piece as amazing or abysmal with no inbetweens. This works very well, and makes it nigh on impossible for people to troll other people's work.
I think the random button is great, and should stay. It's definitely in the spirit of abctales, and a nice way to occasionally stumble across a new, brilliant writer. However, the story and poem lists are crappy unless your story begins with &^$$!... Stuff in the Hs and Zs gets bogged down under hundreds of pages of other stuff in alphabetical acendency. There has to be a system in place for shaking up all the stagnant crap and making unread authors more accessible. Longer descriptions and a more detailed 'Search by description' option would help people who, for example, fancied a tanka, or something with aardvarks in, or indeed porn - hee hee.
Finally, it would be nice if Rokkitnite appeared when you searched for it under all fields. I think most would agree my having a higher profile would do the most to improve the site. *grins*
On rereading Bruce Beckett's comments;
Tables on the front page with 'Top 10 this week', 'Top 10 today', 'Top 10 this month', etc in prose, poems and authors would be sweeto teeto. If not on the front page then one click away from the front page. In fact, that would be uber-amazing. I'm convinced it would transform the site. Doitdoitdoitdoit pleeeease!
I like how this is going but I'm not so sure about that last one, Bruce. Sounds a little like those telly adverts where some bloke says, "I phoned Indirect Finance Firstaid and they were *really* helpful - now I don't have any money problems and I feel a lot better about my bald spot." I don't know - perhaps that method works for a certain kind of consumer - but as a newcomer, I would find statements of delight a big turn-off.
Oo! Oo!
Somewhere you *HAVE* to tell people that when they submit stories they need to double-space the paragraphs. How many times have we had people asking in the 'Discuss writing...' forums why their pieces are all lumped together into one block of text?
Put it on the tour, and on the submission screen, with asterisks around it.
Or possibly redesign the template so it's the same as the poetry one?
"people are afraid to bluntly say they disagree or disapprove somebody’s ideas or style but are not afraid to impolitely criticize his or her abilities."
Heh! I'm with you on this!
*sigh* Im not going to say this again.. you cant stop trolls. They enjoy doing what they do. They are more than prepared to join the site in the troll username, log in, and troll. A casual troller wont, sure.
But is that what you think we get here? Cos I dont.
I get the feeling that by saying these things, I am being seen to be in support of the trolls - this is not true. I am however, realistic, willing to see when something is a futile argument, and MOVE ON.
Making it more difficult for them will not stop them. And as Ive said before, Ive seen pretty bad bullying done in real usernames anyway.
Thats all.....
Keeping random story is good, losing times read is a good idea.
*Tables on the front page with 'Top 10 this week', 'Top 10 today', 'Top 10 this month', etc in prose, poems and authors would be sweeto teeto.*
This is a great idea.... how would the top ten happen? would it be by times read? Cos if so, I see the more egotistical finger happy members of the site clicking away wholesale at their own pieces..
'losing times read is a good idea'
At the risk of alienating you forever, Liana, no it's not. I want to know the kind of traffic my stuff is getting. Would it be so hard to set it up so that when you're logged in, clicking on your own stuff didn't count as a hit? And besides, given the gulf between the most-read entries (with thousands of hits) and the lesser read entries (personally, if I get fifty hits I consider that a bestseller) someone would have to be pretty darn committed to push their piece skywards.
Newgrounds has about eight lists; some by hits and some by most rated. The best average on the site is only like 4.4, because of the way the rating system works (see above). Yes, 'egotistical' (I'd see them as just a bit lonely) people might click-click on their own stuff night and day, but with such an accessible system for reading work, I think the overall number of hits on pieces would rise, making it far harder to do so.
Finally, because such a system could be largely automated (the tables working off hits and adjusting themselves) it would save the editors work! How's that for progress?
I think Writer of the Month is terrific, incidentally, and ought to stay. It's great to see the people behind the stories.
You could be right about the testimonials Hen.
What I was trying to highlight is that there are many benefits to be gained from joining ABCtales, beyond the mere thrill of seeing your work on the net, and it would be good if there was a simple way of getting this message across to new users.
No Rokkit.. what i actually meant to say was losing the "most read" not times read (Im still only half awake) if you browse the gallery, you can opt to look by something called" times read" ...
making a hit system is a good idea in theory, but I dont think it would work in practise... if you dont believe that people would do that, go look at the most read piece on the site. Here it is, its been read over 9,000 times *raises eyebrow*
Look out Andrew Motion.
Writer of the month was always here, then the features system seized up and we lost it for about 6 months.. I'm awfully glad it's back, ditto the online magazine section. Now we have to get to work filling it up again..
I think the 'times read' statistic should go, not because people re-read their own work, but because it doesn't indicate anything. Just because a page is viewed doesn't mean the piece has been read. And the more times a piece appears to be read, the more popular it looks, and popularity is no indication of quality. cf News of the World.
Maybe just keep 'times read' on the story's page. But I think it should have no place in searches or listings.
And putting the top tens (ranked by appreciation) on the front page is a fab idea. I think there could be different extra top tens each week too: top ten children's stories, that sort of thing.
yes, i like all of Rokkit's suggestions.
i wonder if a front page table could be created that orders pieces according to least read rather than most read? this might be a way to highlight those stories that practically no one has bothered to look at.
or maybe there should just be last 10, the random button on the front page, and a more sophisticated search engine to simplify things for new users?
i'd like to keep 'times read' because i find it quite useful. if i see that something in the last 100 hasn't been read by anyone, i make an effort to read it. it's also interesting to observe if, say, 20 people have read a piece and none of them have rated it.
as far as the trolling is concerned, i agree 100% with Paul. as much as anything, it is the message abc wants to give out to its users. the message i would like to see the site give out is that there is no place for direct personal abuse on the forums.
maybe no method will act as a perfect deterrent. still, persistent offending accounts can be e-mailed inviting them to desist and, if push comes to shove, deleted.
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