First of all - my congratulations to both winners. I find them both to be compelling pieces of writing. I also think think that this thread is a 'good' thing - all judgment of pieces of creation is inevitably subjective and we have always been good listeners at ABC.
Yes, omitted to offer congratulations too, in the flow of the 'crit'...well done writers. It is an excellent testimony to the value of the site that such excellent work is on show.
aye , you're right smileyboy; must be them diamonds and pearls - head is all over the joint.
congratulations to the two winners btw, can't remember what the person who wrote the poem is called, think it began with a Y. apologies anyway...
Am I really the only person who has visited this site who simply cannot understand why that particular story won?
Was it because it was crude? Do I need to add a few f-words - or worse - to my stories to make them acceptable?
Was it because the story contained titillation?
Was it because it had virtually no story line, no 'tale'?
Was it because it had nothing to do with winter?
Oh, and just for the record, before anyone mentions sour grapes, I think that the best story (far far better than mine) was one called 'Skating' - but then it had beautiful writing, a good story line, a poignancy - and was even set in the cold season.
Thank God finally somebody said it. I don't mean to put you down Milkstone, as it must be a great feeling for you to have won this competition but honestly, I can think of at least four stories that were better than this one. It's not a 'tale', it's not even remotely connected to winter, it's poorly written and it's vulgar. Plus - you say this portrays an acurate picture of prostitution and yet it is clearly written by someone who has no idea about the world of prostitution. Sorry folks - but I agree with totally bewildered, this decision is a shameful one for those of us who actually care about decent writing.
The criticism that it had a lack of storyline is a curious one. It doesn't have a Roald Dahl twist in the tail, but thank God for that. I've seen better pieces of writing from Milkstone, but I thought that this had good moments and it was definitely a story.
And I don't think the story was at all titillating, far from it. It was really anti-erotic, if anything. If I was guessing at why it won, I'd suspect that the judges liked the same passage as me, where the narrator is surprised at how utterly un-sexy the prostitute was.
Agree with you that it didn't have much to do with winter, though.
The passage that really does it for me in Milkstone's 'Winter In The Hague' is the following one that comes near the end:
"I went straight up to my room and lay down on my bed. Besides the bed was my notebook in which I copied poems and bits of prose I liked. I opened it. I wanted to find something sharp and clean, with which I could cut this afternoon away.
I didn’t find it."
It's that quality, the very simple language putting across complicated ideas, that made the story a winner for me. It seems to me that Milkstone has a wonderful way with show, rather than with tell.
Whilst appearing very simple, her writing is actually very complex, trusting the reader to make connections rather than making overt points then driving them home.
The writing in 'Winter In The Hague' manages to be simple without being brutal or curt, in the way that simple language can be. It suggests to me more a delicate pencil sketch, with fine lines that suggest, rather than heavy lines and strong shading that drive home the effect.
I forgot that bit Mark, I thought that passage was a damn fine bit of crisp, sharp writing. It reminded me a little of Alan Moore's line from Halo Jones "This morning I cut off all my hair with a blunt carving knife, I just felt like doing something stupid and ugly" (which is one of my all-time favourite lines, I have to say)
"Author: totally bewildered (---.l4.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 04-14-05 15:30
Am I really the only person who has visited this site who simply cannot understand why that particular story won?
Was it because it was crude? Do I need to add a few f-words - or worse - to my stories to make them acceptable?
Was it because the story contained titillation?
Was it because it had virtually no story line, no 'tale'?
Was it because it had nothing to do with winter?"
tb,
I think the answer to all these questions is 'no'. As always with these things, it's a matter of personal opinion. I didn't find this story titilating or crude. For me, it's cold and painful.
Stories representing the world, will inevitably contain the language that people living in the world use. Swearing in itself, doesn't impress or even interest me but swear words are no more or less legitimate as part of a fictional voice that any other words.
Jane,
You're not really developing your argument here. What do you mean by poorly written? I've spent my entire working life in editing and writing tutoring and I think Milkstone is, from a technical point of view, an extremely good writer.
She's what I'd call a 'less is more' writer, in that she's very good at getting lots of things across using simple language and as few words as possible.
That's not easy do.
That said, I thought there were lots of good entries and at least two or three others that I thought we're good enough to win.
The winner won because it was the story we liked most. Other judges might have chosen other winners and they wouldn't have been any more right or wrong than we are.
thanks to all who offered their congrats to my winning poem 'snowfield'.
reading your responses fairly took my breath away, such passion about writing is great especially since it's such a solitary occupation.
sorry ralph i take your point about surgical excision being sometimes necessary but at the moment i'm happy to savour my success- then again as my tutor archie markam says 'nothing is ever truly finished'.
i've got loads of poems to write to complete my course (ma writing at sheffield hallam) so i'll probably leave 'snowfield' on the back burner, i find a few months left alone does wonders for a 'fresh' view re. editing.
V
Belated congratulations to the winners. I must say in all honesty that neither was to my personal taste, but still they were well executed. I did not find anything the least bit vulgar or titillating about the 'Hague' story. When I read it, I felt that it was probably a true story, and sure enough.... In my view, it is not so much a story about prostitution as it is a story about poverty and making due with what is available. It could have been a story about a mother taking in washing and doing hairdressing and manicures in her kitchen to make ends meet. There are many possible variations on that theme. In fact, the author might try rewriting it in different forms as an exercise.
I personally preferred the Sue Anderson story too, in fact I think it's one of the best things I've ever read on the site, though the standard of entry was obviously very high and I'd have been more than happy if I'd written either of the winning pieces!
I think Milkstones story was superb. The elements of style are perfect, she wasted nothing. It wasn't drawn out, it went smoothly from point to point to point without missing a beat. Enough character and description to form the pictures, not too much to dawdle. You complainers would do well to read and learn. I'm jealous.
Thank you Radiodenver, for your praise.
Jane and Bewildered I am sorry that you are so upset by my tale.
Though I must admit that I am slightly titillated by the fact that someone saw my writing as titillating! That is a first. My writing is as unsexy as you can get.
Jane, you don't like my world of prostitution. I describe it as it was. Tina and her mum are real people. I write about what I saw, about what happened to us.
Vulgar, crude, swearwords. -I never use crude swear words unless it can't be avoided.
Poorly written you say. Not much I can do about that. It is my style.
For me it is a wintry tale. It is a cold, uncomforting kind of story. About a cold and wintry period in my childhood.
In my opinion, Milkstone's story was not vulgar in the slightest (if anything it exhibited more of her misandry). As writers (getting on my soapbox again, sorry) we should try to open-minded as possible, particularly if we want to get into the mind's of charcaters who are unlike ourselves. We should listen to other people's experiences without condemning them. Thinking 'out of the box' so to speak, not following the herd. Not that we have to be subversive, or anything, we can still make moral statements with our writing if that's what we want to do, but it's best to do it from a position of knowledge rather than from prejudice.
Ok let me clarify what I meant by 'poorly written' - by this I did not mean that you are not a good writer. I meant that for me it was too 'thin'. I realise that I'm still being ambiguous. Let me explain! When I read a piece of writing I want the writer to paint a picture for me, to use the language as a tool to sculpt me a world that I can see, hear, breathe, think, smell, taste. Isn't writing a craft? Isn't language the tool? Therefore when I read a story that (to my mind) seems to be only the bare fragments of a story, I feel cheated. I know that the comments here have said that this is precisely what they enjoy about this story - that Milkstone is able to create this world without waxing lyrical but for me, it read a bit like the way a child writes (subject matter aside!). I don't think it's the reader's job to fill out the unwritten with their own detail. I want the writer to do that. To my mind: it's their job.
Please don't think I'm being hostile to anyone personally. It must be amazing to have won, Milkstone. I didn't even enter!
Hi,
Congratulations to the winners. They are not the ones I would have chosen: maybe that's why I'm not a judge. :-)
I think that enough has been said above that covers my reasons for not being particularly in favour of the stories.
I'm also friends with (and live with!) some people who also frequent this site so let's not have any fighting over it.
Someone mentioned 'Skating' - if they are talking about the same one I remember (although I remember it - perhaps wrongly - as 'Ice Skating) then I totally agree that it was my front runner to win. It was a beautifully written tale of a woman's relationship with her mother. I wish I could remember who wrote it!
On another note - did you notice how many of the competition entries were sad?
In my opinion, the Milkstone story has little merit, I cannot see how it could have possibly been chosen. It was 'thin' and contained
two-dimensional charcaters that are typical of all the charcaters I've read from this writer (I read most of the submissions after this writer also was chosen as 'Writer of the Month') - the veiwpoint is always the dispassionate female teenager, the theme - sexual discovery. The style is simplistic, which there is nothing wrong with, but in the winning example, it just does not work within the short story format. This story which did not grab or say anything new. If this was the 70s maybe, but I don't get it.
In my opinion, there were many more deserving stories.
Utterly confused, totally perplexed when there was so much other wonderful stuff submitted that was more original, better written and, more imaginative.
[%sig%]
Hello,
I agree with the person above. The story by Milkstone is not 'vulgar' in the slightest. However, it is bare and I think that the person who said it could just have easily been about a mother doing other people's laundry to make money - hit the nail on the head. It could have been about that, and it would have been equally boring. Milkstone seems to write autobiography into all of her pieces and whilst this must be a useful tool for her to come to terms with her underprivelaged childhood, it's not good creative story writing, like the Sue Anderson piece.
ABC TALES. Tales? This is not a tale, it doesn't tell us anything. It left me feeling nothing, thinking nothing, caring about nothing. I could go away and write about my difficult divorce till I'm blue in the face but I don't think it would be a good piece of writing and I don't think I would expect anyone else to like it, or to care.
So know that you can honestly say that you've actually read a tale, about which you can remembered nothing threatening because it didn't try twist your psyche in any other direction than by it's only means of pure existence?
I'd moreso say that's quite an impressive piece of writing to offer up a such a novel 'no-soap-suds' adventure!
"Milkstone seems to write autobiography into all of her pieces and whilst this must be a useful tool for her to come to terms with her underprivelaged childhood, it's not good creative story writing,"
This is an utterly absurd statement. I'm not sure whether or not to treat this post as satirical.
Are you seriously suggesting that writers shouldn't draw on their own life experience in their writing? Whether or not you think is good idea, I'd seriously dispute whether it's actually possible.
How could we possibly measure this creative purity?
But, that aside, many of the most famous novels are fairly directly autobiographical.
The Bell Jar, for instance.
Keep the Aspidistra Flying...
Are you saying this sort of writing should be ineligible for ABCtales competitions?
"It left me feeling nothing, thinking nothing, caring about nothing."
That's a pretty profound reaction to one short story. Imagine what effect it had on people who liked it.
Jasper:
I cannot understand what you are trying to say as your post is not in any kind of comprehensible English.
David:
I am in no way suggesting that writers should not draw on their own life experiences in their writing. Milkstone is not 'drawing on' her experiences, she is merely writing them down in an uninspired and frankly boring way. May I draw your attention to sentences such as
He was watching television when we came in. He looked around and gave a wave.
Does that not sound more like a police statement than a piece of creative writing.
Tina came back in
Tina and her mother came back in
He shrugged his shoulders and went to the door.
I could go on and on and on. This sounds like the kind of thing children write. He did this. She did that. Then we did this. I liked it. Blah blah blah.
As for 'that's a pretty profound reaction to one short story' you have completely misunderstood me. When I had finished reading the story, I gained nothing from it. I didn't care about the characters, I didn't find any interest or imagination sparked by the story, It made no difference to my life whether i had just read that story or used it to blow my nose. It gave me nothing. I'm sorry, I know I'm making myself unpopular here, but I expect more from good writing. And I get it.
I think we get your point now Critters.
I happen to really enjoy understated writing. Milkstone often reminds me of the writer Ha Jin who I really love, and who says things in what is not there, and also someone like Bernard Shlinck who also does the same thing.
I also happen to need to read other types of writing too, and there is a danger when movements are discribed that a whole story really is about the moving of an ashtray from one side of the table to the other as if that is very profound, when in fact, it is just contrived. I happen to think Milkstone *isn't* one of those writers who does that though, and that she - in general, but not always - gets those undertated little movements just right.
- He shrugged his shoulders and went to the door.
That does tell me what I need to know - how would you have written it?
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