'A Winter's Tale' Winners Announced!

There is obviously a genre discussion going on here. Exponents of different styles are battling it out to see 'who is right'. There is nothing wrong with the minimalist form. It's acceptable and can be very effective. It's not right or wrong. I'm not arguing that. I have no problem with this at all in relation to the winning story. My problem is about merit. Did this story deserve to win? Regardless of the style of prose used, it didn't 'say' anything. In my opinion, it had nothing about it that led to any moment of uneasiness or excitement, or discovery or any emotion whatsover. It was not a good or a great story. Mark particularly like the closing passage: "I went straight up to my room and lay down on my bed. Besides the bed was my notebook in which I copied poems and bits of prose I liked. I opened it. I wanted to find something sharp and clean, with which I could cut this afternoon away." Just what is she cutting away and why? The story didn't convey any sense of emotion from the main charcater. It was a dispassionate piece.

You missed out the next bit: <> I think Mark was using that bit too... it's an understated reference to the hope the narrator felt, yet it was pointless hope, because there really was nothing there to wipe it out. I also thought this was a reference to how many writers feel.... if only we could just find that one profound thought that we are sure we know, it would make us feel settled, secure, fabulous, *fill in the gaps*, but often - always? - it isn't there.

No you are entitled to your opinion...full stop! Consider: What I like about Descarte's concept of being a Brain in a Vat, is that at some stage of this type of clinical experiment, I may be offered an experience which is beyond what I once considered to be my 'homeostatic position'. IE: Does a horse suffer from a broken heart? And if if did, how would one know, if one can't clinically reproduce an experiment on a horse to find this out objectively? One needs objective matter (the lesson), not subjective material (the experience) to understand Milkstone style and texure here, as she does not simply rely on excessive - hmmm, lietmotif or - adjective fat for reader impact within her work! She peels the proverbial oinon to it's core, without lifting a finger to remove the layers first! And this is in itself is very challenging, if one considers the 'Death By Chocolate' schemata which most authors use to compensate for either their lack of literary or imaginative skills nowadays! If that doesn't work, then try to imagine what role a Percussionist would play in a Orchestra, whose musical score is based upon 3 simple chords only...Plot, Character, and Timing! And the answer is : the Percussionist wouldn't be there to begin with, as he is an unessential item, who's white noise detracts from the scheme of the more honest musical scores with pure tones of realistic value? Like compare Dusty Springfield's 'Wishing and Hoping," to say, 'Angel Eyes' by Eno and Ferry (Roxy Music)! Dusty appeals to far wider community, btw! I'm really bad at explaining myself......to much information comes in at once.......I'll shut up now!

Merit is about winning or losing...yeah right! Klimt's Angel had no artistic merit either, and yet it inspired an impressionistic format which revolutionised the entire world both art and architecture!

cheers Emily. and Emma yes i do like Sheffield although i actually live across the pennines in glossop, well to be truthful i live next to royston vasey aka hadfield. are you at uni too? V

No, finally I can say I'm not at Uni! I did a Bmus and an Mmus at Sheffield University...but now I'm a mother of three living very near the city centre. If you fancy a coffee sometime, email me? Which campus do you have to attend?

Gosh, I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to enter an abc competition ever again if that's the attitude towards the winners. The things Jane says that she likes to see in a story are all good things, and they are things that I like to see in a story as well - but it is not the only way to tell a story. Milkstone's prose is quite sparse but with the right subject it can be a very effective way to tell a story - I think that it gives extra weight to the alienation that the narrator feels towards family life and sex and the world she finds herself in. Writing simply like this looks very easy, but once you try it, you realise that it is actually very hard. Raymond Carver makes the minimalist style look easy, but he had to work damn hard to get his pieces that way - it means you can't waste a word, every word has to earn its place and do its work in the piece. I think there are moments in the story which could be improved with an editor's eye, but that's true of nearly every piece. As for Kj - I think Kj generally talks a lot of sense (I wish I had a name that would be easier to use though!) and gives writing thought, so I listen carefully to what is said, because he/she (?) has identified certain features of Milkstone's writing that are interesting. I wouldn't quarrel about that, it is a matter of opinion, and some thought has gone into the opinion. For me, the fact that a writer has themes that recur is not necessarily a limitation - Hemingway wrote about masculinity and sport, Bukowski about alcohol and sex, Carver about alcoholism and ordinary people living small lives, Steinbeck about a sense of honesty he only felt could be found in poor simple people - so I wouldn't think it was a disadvantage per se. The issue is, does the writers work feel 'samey' rather than having a distinctive voice - I haven't read enough Milkstone to say if that's the case. For what it's worth, I thought Milkstone's story was very good, but if I'd been judging I'd have given the nod to Sue Anderson's piece because it fitted the remit more; but I certainly don't think that the result was a travesty or unfair - any judgment of creativity has to be in part subjective and it means that not everyone will agree with the judges. I don't think Mark or David got it plainly wrong here, it is a matter of opinion.

Author: Radiodenver (---.227.234.62.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net) Date: 04-13-05 02:40 It's always amusing to hear people tell the winner how to do it better isn't it? Author: david floyd (---.ubertales.co.uk) Date: 04-14-05 17:30 I think the answer to all these questions is 'no'. As always with these things, it's a matter of personal opinion. I didn't find this story titilating or crude. For me, it's cold and painful. Stories representing the world, will inevitably contain the language that people living in the world use. Swearing in itself, doesn't impress or even interest me but swear words are no more or less legitimate as part of a fictional voice that any other words. Author: Mark Brown (---.ubertales.co.uk) Date: 04-14-05 16:28 Whilst appearing very simple, her writing is actually very complex, trusting the reader to make connections rather than making overt points then driving them home. Now why don't you mob of bleeding-heart-soap-box-preachers just bugger off and accept the mere fact that your nowhere near as good as these two wonderful authors in these particular Genres! [%sig%]

You're - it's spelled you're. And by the way, someone shows their 'mettle' not their 'metal' unless they are the Tin Man, that is.

Hi Emily, May I say how refreshing it is to read your posts. Yes, I think my reply was a little clumsy in comparison (blame 3 hours of continuous redrafting!). I understand about the minamalist style, it can be very effective, but not in this case. And I am a fan of 'realism'. But for either long or short peices of fiction, I want to care, or at least find out more about the characters etc. This didn't turn on any lights for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on Milkstone, I find this author's stories 'compulsive' - much in the way I don't want to watch some earnest movie, but find myself compelled to do so as the story unfolds - a good sign. But this example was not compelling. The style lends itself to a longer peice of work, although it did not leave me wanting more. It was more of a 'so what?' feeling. I'm not usually the cynical type, but the subject matter was very old hat and I just felt that for a winning story, it just wasn't doing very much on any level. I would be intrigued to hear if anybody else felt the same way, or am I a voice of one, perhaps? Please send me the link to Sue Anderson's peice as you make it sound quite worthy.

Well who said merit was about winning or losing? We are discussing the merit of the story regardless of the fact it won the competition. I think it's funny to say 'I'll shut up now' and then post again ten minutes later. :-) Thanks for giving me a laugh!

You are not a long voice here. There are others who agree with you. I think perhaps the problem, as I understand it, is that Milkstone is writing non-fiction rather than fiction. This is (she seems to be saying) a story about a personal experience. If this is the case, she is obviously using her writing as a way to deal with and explore her difficult past. That's fine - but doesn't make for very entertaining reading for anyone else. Also as a piece of non-fiction, it does read like a very bare 'diary entry' or something. She was there so she does not need to fill out the story and give any details as it's merely an account of an event from her past. However as a piece of 'creative writing' it doesn't work - perhaps because it simply is not 'creative'. She does not fill out the world so that the reader can experience it with her. And because the subject matter is a bit tired - i'm not sure we'd even want her to. Just my opinion. As TB said - I reserve the right to have it.

No problem KJ Here it is It is actually Story of the Week - and deservedly so. But then, my buttons tend to get pressed by writing about wonder and I've a thing for ice. I wonder whether Milkstone's story might have been more interesting if the narrator had either liked the idea of prostitution or had gone through it in a bored and detached manner, rather than recoiling. But there were certainly passages in it that I liked a great deal. I would absolutely have cherried it, back in my editing days, and it probably would have got a moment in the sun as Story of the Day. How's the novel coming on? If you want some feedback on any of it, drop me an email.

How about now......does that make you hysterical? I'll shut up now. But now is now and when is whenever I damn well say it is: it's a woman's prerogative, you know! And so is being fashionably late! But Man, you ought to catch me in full monthly swing...Tsunami up! I do Joe Cocker and Ozzie impersonations while biting the heads of bats...all eleven of the little buggers, btw, then I chuck the stumps at the Umpire in a big hissy-fit!

Jasper, On behalf of myself, my colleagues, family, friends, and all here at ABC Tales I would like to extend the following piece of friendly advice to you: SHUT UP You are making a real idiot of yourself. Now go ahead and post a piece of bullshit in response to this. You know you want to. And it will illustrate my point beautifuly. Thank you.

*You're not a LONE voice. My typo.

Hi Em, Thanks for the link. Have printed it out - bedtime reading tonight. My novel is okay, just needed a few thousand words lopped off here and there and some of my more annoying little habits targeted and changed. It's now more pacey, less introspective and probably, more glib, heh. Still, I've learnt a lot in the process.

Just IGNORE him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!!! Why is that sooooooooo hard!!!!!!!!! Neeeeooourgh! ...I'm okay now.

Hi Jane, Very glad to find out it's just not me :) So it's autobiographical? Not sure about what I think about that. I'm from the camp that says the author's experiences are incidental to the finished peice. Death of the author and all that Barthes stuff. Hope it was marked on story and not because the author is somehow more 'real' because of their experiences - that would be very disappointing.

Congratulations to the winners. I thought both pieces were wonderful. They must be good to stir up this much discussion. I'm not in school as a writer so I appreciate hearing everyone's opinion. As an artist, I can identify with the difficulty of using the knife. I can get personally wrapped up in a piece. Sometime you have to knock it on its side to progress.

Just read Sue Anderson's story. Apart from a little awkward prose near the beginning and over punctuation, this was simply brilliant. Everything about it was wonderful, the ice-pool, the forbidden game, the future, the ice-queen, the little twist at the end - this is a story I would have loved to have written. The best story I've read on this site so far. What a little gem.

Loved them both. A great advert for the site for anyone who clicks on the front page and wants to get a quick idea of what's considered good writing.

LOL Reel em in, Jasper! Hey KJH: you wanna fishing lesson sometime? I know what even scares sharks and killer whales?

I especially loved "A Winter's Tale". Not only is it beautifully written in a very simple language and highly original, but also the detailed observation bring back the good narrative that so many contemporary stories today seem to lack. No windy explanation, the action speaks for itself. Milkstones stories are fun to read and always keep the reader in suspense. I definitely am a fan and want to read more. Hope to see her book published! [%sig%]

..you in your piss covered pants?

Sorry, dont want to ruin the party. The poem was adequete but thats all. The use of the word 'like' is a cop-out. There is a fine poem in there I think but not yet. It reads like (ha) a poem a teenager might write after their first joint (could be the intention). It might be improved immensly by scraping down. here is the original. A sea of Portland stone scooped and smoothed and sculpted lit by a fluorescent sky a cold silence settles like a layer of wax grouse fly up scattering white chippings in the air an alabaster swell rises, its crest a frozen ridge solid and clean like a whale's bleached jawbone still lying where it was beached. ok, perhaps this edit might improve it. Sea of Portland stone scooped smoothed and sculpted silence settles a layer of wax grouse fly scattering the white chippings in the air an alabaster swell crest frozen clean solid ridge whale's bleached jawbone lying beached I was lucky to be a student of the great, late Micheal Donnaghy for a year. He taught us the beauty of the knife, however much we hated it at the time. Cheers Ralph

Yeah, I always take me beer with fish flakes *wink*

Missed the 'fluorescent sky' couldn't that stay in Ralph?

Author: Ralph (---.server.ntli.net) Date:   04-12-05 23:05 Sorry, dont want to ruin the party. The poem was adequete but thats all. The use of the word 'like' is a cop-out. There is a fine poem in there I think but not yet. It reads like (ha) a poem a teenager might write after their first joint (could be the intention). It might be improved immensly by scraping down. here is the original. A sea of Portland stone scooped and smoothed and sculpted lit by a fluorescent sky a cold silence settles like a layer of wax grouse fly up scattering white chippings in the air an alabaster swell rises, its crest a frozen ridge solid and clean like a whale's bleached jawbone still lying where it was beached. ok, perhaps this edit might improve it. Sea of Portland stone fluorescent skied scooped smoothed and sculpted silence settles a layer of wax grouse fly scattering the white chippings in the air an alabaster swell crest frozen clean solid ridge whale's bleached jawbone lying beached

I like that better, Ralph.

Don't know much about these things but I'd be tempted to go for Fluorescent skied sea of Portland stone Maybe just because the sky is always above the sea :)

Like that as well.

Arg.... Milkstone don't listen to them, keep the poem as you wrote it, the edited version of Ralph's completely loses the original's feeling & Smiley's version of the lines make it too minimilist. I like your version better. Please don't change it. It is lovely how it is.

It's always amusing to hear people tell the winner how to do it better isn't it?

Once something is written it is owed by the reader and not the writer, Do you understand that concept?

Well... I don't think much to either of these. Sue Anderson's Ice Game should have won - no contest - it was wonderful! I think you made a mistake here!

Funky, I was only commenting on the first two lines and not suggesting the rest should be lost - I did think later that perhaps I should have made that clear. I thought Ralph did an excellent job I just want to reverse the first two lines. I liked the original too.

While I don't agree with Ralph's philosophy that once a piece is written it is owned by the reader and not the writer (you just try performing Star Wars the Musical at the Bloomsbury and see how quickly Lucas assers the contrary view of ownership), I also disagree with Funky here. Ralph's edits do improve the poem - the writer of the poem is free to ignore them, use them, disregard them, rail against them, but improving the work is what writing is about. Some of the suggestions might be a matter of personal choice, but I think it would be hard to argue that a poem wouldn't be stronger for removing 'like' - I'm sure its a line that would be struck out by an editor. As for Ralph's more minimalist style, I do prefer it and think it makes the poem cleaner and crisper - I suppose the poet might not want the poem clean and crisp, they might want it to uncoil and amble, which is fair enough. But having the ability to see how it might be done another way and then making your decision is quite handy. I'm wary of doing this with poems, but it did seem to me that compelling and skilful as Milkstone's story was (and I think a worthy winner) there were some lines which could be lost or reshaped. That's not a criticism, the best writers use editors to improve pieces. And you can tell when a writer that used to have an editor stops using one - J K Rowling from book 4 onwards, Ann Rice ever since The Body Thief. You don't change everything just because someone suggests it, but listening to the suggestion and thinking about why it is made and why you are making the alteration or rejecting it, will improve the writing. I think Ralph is brave to have done this and it is something I'd like to see more of here. I'd like it to be perhaps on a voluntary basis of people putting something forward - maybe even individual paragraphs that writers are feeling aren't quite working. Let's use the skills people have here to workshop stuff.

I am also in agreement with Ralph on the poem. I see it as having great potential in its original state, but not a finished/polished piece. The writer is clearly a genuine poetic voice though. With regard to the story, a well-written and flowing narrative piece with grit and subtlety. I must say, however, that the 'Winter' element in this is rather incidental and in that sense a somewhat surprising choice in relation to the competition's remit. I felt that the piece was also quite closed, by which I mean I didn't feel I took a great deal away with me as a result of reading it. It lacked sparkle and distinctiveness to my mind. Nevertheless a professionally written piece.

I understand your point Andrew; however, I think there is a point where picking apart a writer or poets work no longer serves a purpose. Also for anyone to suggest that it becomes the property of the reader is way off base. Revisionist reading...that’s an interesting concept. Let’s take the books we couldn't quite get into and rewrite them to our own tastes. A competition winning story or poem at some point should be left to stand on its own merit. It won based on what it was compared with as submitted and further criticism and picking it apart is pointless. While opinions may still be valid and flaws may exist, suggesting to an artist that he should change something smells of arrogance. Going so far as to rewrite it for them…well…that’s total disrespect for a fellow writer. Walk into an art gallery and do a little touch up on those paintings you don't think are quite right. "oops, he missed a spot here." As I recall, you too won a competition with a story last year, which I read and thought had flaws, but, I respected the work on its own merit and it was a fine job. Who would I be to suggest that you change something that you probably had a great deal of pride in the final version? There would be more validity perhaps under these circumstances in criticizing the selection process rather than the work selected. I would also suggest that virtually any outstanding work of literature or poetry could be picked apart in the same way. Life is flawed, art is flawed. Enjoy it for what it is and lose the need to pick it apart at least somewhere in the process.

Anonymous question mark person, could you post a link to Sue Anderson's piece? I'd like to read it, but I am preternaturally lazy at finding things on abc since the relaunch. Ralph, what do you think of a layer of wax as an image for settling? The more I think about it, the less sure I am. Does wax settle? And if we're going to keep the sky, I think fluorescing rather than fluorescent is more active and vivid. (Also a bit surprised 'alabaster' made it through the edit, it is one of those 'poetical' words which are always the first in my mind to be crossed out. When was the last time you heard anyone say 'alabaster' unless they were reading a poem?) I actually think it is quite a good poem with a good sense of place and space and cleanness and peace. I think the suggestions are improving it, though as I've said, it's up to the writer. (Sheesh, I hate the fact that five years into abc, we're still having to spell stuff like that out, when it ought to be blatantly obvious - when you critique a poem, suggestions are suggestions and nothing more)

I must add that I prefer the original to Ralph's edit above, whilst agreeing that some work could be done I think the original has an aura that Ralph loses with the paring down. (I felt it had been the editing equivalent of scalped.) I couldn't begin to attempt to do anything with it myself - but a real poet could offer help - fish? Eddie? Liana?

<> <> body was being disrespectful - I think. In fact I think people should help other writers on here with editing more, not less. The writer doesn't have to take it on board. I thought this site was a writing site - feedback and editing is what it is, in part, about. All writers have - in general - editors. Editors are brilliant and can notice things you might never do. I agree with the alabaster - you only get it poems or in Heat magazine when they talk about Nicole Kidman's skin. Oh, and actually, it is quite fun to edit the first page of a book you either like or hate. You end up finding that there is no such thing as a 'hallowed' piece of untouchable fiction. Sometimes that is good to know.

That should say nobody was being disrespectful rather than body. obviously.

Good points from all IMHO. I did wonder how the author might feel (being a sensitive soul myself) but I decided that on the whole the author would probaly be pleased... eventually (smiles).

I really don't think anyone is 'picking apart' this poem because they are churlish about it winning the competition. This is a writing website and people are making creative suggestions. The example of daubing corrections on a painting is moronic, and you know it. The original poem is still there, it is untouched. Nobody's ruined anything, nobody has spoiled anything. Anyone who thinks that their writing is perfect would have to be a lunatic. Everything can be improved. Maybe the comments made by Ralph and I, don't in the mind of the original poet improve the work - that's absolutely fine, it's not my work to amend. Nobody is saying that the poem has to be changed, they are suggesting changes that might be made. But I can make suggestions. It's a good poem. Published poets, published authors don't consider their works finished until they are in print (and sometimes not even then) - revising and improving a piece is most of the art in writing. One of which, I'm not going to make, because I've had a feeling of losing my cool on this site for the last three days, and it isn't helpful.

Ohhhh...go ahead....it's good stress relief.

Actually I forgot to congratulate the winners on winning. It's always nice to win something. I enjoyed both of these for different reasons and can see why they were picked.

uh... sorry.. didn't mean to seem I was against people making suggestions about people's writing. Don't think that at all. Sorry if my post seemed like I was having a go. Just saying what I think. Just wanted milkstone to know, that in my opinion I liked it how it was.

Oh, and actually, having read Ralph's original post more carefully, I now see where Gary and Funky are coming from. I hadn't seen the bit about sixth formers first time round and that clearly is on the disrespectful side. I was concentrating on the suggestions Ralph was making. I haven't seen the other entries, but as pieces of writing that stand on their own, I do think both are worthy winners and deserve the flagging up that has been given.