Z's or S's

Well, most people associate 'ize' endings with American English and condemn them out of hand. Two years ago, I challenged Mrs. S. on her use of 'realized' in a game of scrabble, because I've only seem it spelled as 'realised'. Naturally, I was wrong. The pocket Oxford doesn't even recognize 'realise' yet I have seen 'recognize' criticised for not being 'English' English in online discussions! One thing I did note in my follow up search so as to avoid defeat in the future was that whilst 's' is the accepted form nowadays for the present tense, 'z' should still be used for the past. Yet, no-one else seems to know or use this, *he verbalized.* This will inevitably lead on to a discussion about American English v English English and, having read my Bryson, I will side with the yanks. Their spelling relates back to that of the pilgrims. It is ours that has changed.

But it is 'our' language to do with as we please. The 'z' has always been seen as American English as Colin sayz. I shall stick to 's'.

american english is closer to the original english, than our english is today... as is pronounciation too - the elongated ar in car for example. English spoken in england today, is heavily influenced by french and other loans.

>> ...the elongated ar in car for example... << What have stretch limos got to do with it? I can see you've gotten to like America after all!

Slightly off-topic but I was reading in a book on grammar that claimed English convention puts puntuation outside quotation marks: i.e. "Ben went to the park," said Enzo. is American, while: "Ben went to the park", said Enzo. is English. It struck me as odd because I was certain the former is general convention. BTW - the park was really great. [%sig%]

'center' or 'centre', 'color' or 'colour', 'ise' or 'ize' - none of it really matters. I use the English version cos I'm English. Like deciding to use single or double speech marks, the only thing we need worry about it consistency.

i went back and changed all the 'ize's to 'ise's in my novel when I was about a third of the way through it because I'm English and that's that. Liana, I don't get what you mean about 'car', most brits say it the same as the yanks but with a different accent. Except Northerners like me who speak English properly and pronounce it 'caa' because an 'a' is an 'a' whether it's in 'apple' or 'car'. ... but I digress.

The one Britishism that truly bugs the crap out of me (I tend to swing back and forth between Z and S for the abovementioned, btw, although I actually prefer S), is 'orientate'. As in, "I drank too much and became disorientated." The word is 'orient' or 'disorient'. "I drank too much and became disoriented". You orient yourself to the horizon. Orient naturally meaning the eastern direction. You do not fly to China to visit the Orientate. The other one, sorry, is the increasing use of the pronunciation 'haitch' instead of 'aitch'. I think this was once a part of a regional dialect, but it's spreading. "Oi took moi son to HAITCH and EM to boi him a tee-sherrt". Ick. Naturally, being a Yank, doubtless you feel I shouldn't have any criticisms of the Mother Tongue as spoken by Natives. You are wrong. *raspberry*

Liaise. MS Word thinks it's "liase."

I think you'll find that both orient and orientate are acceptable and that people tend to use the latter because the noun, the act of orienting OR orientating is called orientation (there is no oriention) and it's that -ation that leads people naturally to keep it for orientated.

I'm well aware of that, ely. But Americans do not use 'orientate' at all, I don't think, and it's jarring to the ears. A bit like 'haitch'. I sounds uneducated.

Correction: IT sounds uneducated. I guess 'I sounds uneducated' works, tho'...

Another thing: if orient becomes orientation, wouldn't orientate thereby become 'orientatation'?

well no becasue it doesn't 'feel' right to move from '-ent' to '-entation' whereas '-entate' to '-entation' feels better. masturbate doesn't become masturbatation does it? I suppose people would prefer to use orient if: a) it wasn't also the name of the East b) it became oriension, or even, orientment.

Oh, ruddy haitch ee ell ell. Oi'm all confoosed naow.

This conversation is disorienting.

I have never been one to shrink from criticizing our American cousins for mangling the English language with pompositity, Latinization and Malpropism. I have also always preferred the "s" spelling to the "z". But I have to accept the word of authorities more learned than I that the "z" is, as liana says above, closer to the original English spelling. "Disorientated" is just a pomposity. Like "transportation" and a thousand others. A. Bore

I'm fairly sure that the Americans changed the spelling after breaking from the Colonial Powers. Webster changed the spellings in his dictionary, to bring, I think, uniformity (as well as a political separation from the Home Country) of spelling, hence, the Z instead of the S. American spelling is more phonetically correct and is closer to the way the word is actually pronounced (with the same confusing Chaucerian leftovers such as 'igh' and 'ough' for vowel sounds as Britglish has, however). British spelling is, as Liana says, closer to French, which makes historical sense, since 'colour' was once pronounced with a zick Fraunsch acSENT.

Thanks for the above chaps. Just found this explanation from the Oxford English Dictionary site: British spelling has always recognized the existence of variant spellings using the suffix -ize/-ise. When American spelling was standardized during the 19th century (mainly through the efforts of the great American lexicographer Noah Webster), the consistent use of -ize was one of the conventions that became established. However, since then, the -ise spellings have become more popular in Britain (and in other English-speaking countries such as Australia), perhaps partly as a reaction against the American custom. Spellings such as organisation would have struck many older British writers as rather French-looking. The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo, and this was also the style of Encyclopedia Britannica (even before it was American-owned) and formerly of the Times newspaper. The main advantage of the modern -ise habit? Lazy spellers do not have to remember that there are several important words which cannot properly be spelt with -ize. These include words which are not formed by the addition of the -ize prefix to a stem, but by some other root which happens to end in the same syllable, such as -vise (as in televise), -cise (as in incise), and -prise (as in comprise). The American system resulted in the creeping of z into some other words where it did not originally belong. Writers of American English should be aware of some spellings that are regarded as incorrect in the UK, notably analyze. [%sig%]

Ah yes, Noah Webster... Said he was a lawyer - he wasn't. Said he could speak 27 languages and couldn't. And I'm sorry AG, no offence (with a c) but anyone who promounces aluminium alooooooooooooominum has no right to whinge about orientation...

there just werds innit?

indeed they is.

The American spelling of aluminium is aluminum, according to my little Webster's dictionary anyway... So I guess the way they pronounce the word is correct to their spelling.

Anybody got any thoughts on the use of alright and all right... Which is correct? help!

The American Chemial Society chose the spelling Aluminum back in the 1920's, prior to that I think the spelling oscillated between the two versions. Personally, I think that the Aluminium is probably a better scientific version of the word, but it doesn't matter how you spell it, it has the same properties.

I always use 'all right' because I know some publishers treat 'alright' in the same way that they treat the misuse of 'it's'.

I believe there is a subtle difference between the two, foxy. 'Alright' means OK in my book, whereas 'all right' can mean all on the right as opposed to the left, or everything is right as opposed to wrong.

Thanks for that KJ, I always use 'all right' too, mainly because I don't think 'alright' looks all right.

Now you've got me all nervous again Missi... I don't feel alright at all, I'm going to check in the dictionary.

As I've said before, everyone knows that Nor Webzter can't zpell.

I have it on good authority (and I think I've explained this before) that the correct spelling is ALUMINUM and, therefore, the Americans are corrrect but we brits changed it to sound better with other elements that end with the IUM sound.

alright isn't a real word.

According to my Oxford Talking Dictionary; "The spelling 'alright' is often considered erroneous, but cf. analogous 'already', 'although', etc." whatever that means. Anyone got any thoughts on the use of 'single' quotation marks and "double" quotation marks? As I understand it double is the correct way to go with single marks used for a quotation within a quotation... but in just about every novel that I own that has been printed for the UK market they use single quotation marks. [%sig%]

I think the source of the debate is nothing more than an attempt by erudite snobs to control the usage a language between competing cultures.

I love the word erudite. You just don't hear it enough these days.

doubles always for me. singles are just apostrophes and thay have a different use altogether so why confuse things? It's not like there's a lot of extra effort required as they're both on the same key. also I used to love drawing the nicely leaning and rounded shape of quotation marks as a kid (they had an upside down AND reversed thing going on as in 66 and 99) and the modern single apostrophe (') that has no real direction so it can be used at either end of a sentence lacks character for me. no, it's doubles for me, even within doubles, ok so you end up with quads at the end of a sentence but so what? there's plenty of space up there above the letters so they don't get in the way of commas and full stops (periods), colons etc.

I know what you mean about doubles, but I think a page full of dialogue with doubles can get a bit dizzy making...but I suppose I don't care really, as long as it's not writting IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

What sort of keyboard are you using Ely? On my keyboard double quotes are on the 2 key and the apostrophe shares a key with @. which is why I tend to use single quotes because they don't require a shift key press... yes, I'm a lazy b@st@rd I know... but it's just so much effort. So, am I missing something? Is there a way of assigning them both to the same key? [%sig%]

No offense (with an s) taken, Liana. Aloooooominum is how we spells it; alooooominum is how we says it. It depends on how you are orientated. Let's not over-analyzzzzzzzzzzze the situation... *cackles madly and pulls out hair in clumps*

Dunno but there is definitely no such bloody thing as Aluminum!!!

And I would postulate that there is no such thing as alyoominium!

Archergirl ... I am shocked ... I had a lot of respect for you!!!!!

sorry Foxy, that was another joke (ie: both the marks that make up the double are on the ame key) but you're right, it does require a shift key and I can't tell you the number of times I've surrounded dialogue with 2s. But I continue to use the double because it's the way I was brung up to write!

*cackles again and takes a sip of cabernet* Vive le difference, sez I...

Sadly for all, Ely is right. Humphrey Davy who discovered aluminium (when he wasn't power-drinking a bottle of red wine in 12 minutes and climbing into cabinets of nitrous oxide) originally called it "Aluminum" and changed it later to better correspond with the other 'ium' endings we already had. But then, why pick on americanisms like that, when there are perfectly good things like "I'm doing it already" rather than "I'm already doing it" to savage. My diagnosis - Americans learn English from Sesame Street, Sesame Street is made by Jim Henson, Jim Henson created Yoda - thus, in an awkward manner learned to speak did they.

:o)

*sharpens the spit with which she will roast the anonymous contributor, once she finds him/her*

You can't roast crabs on a spit Mz Archer ;o)

Ah, but a nice barbed harpoon will do...

Didn't expect you to be big enough for harpoon hurling Ag. Lot's of people here in Scarborough seem to be decended from whaler harpooners and are almost 7ft tall and taciturn... not traits I associate with you :o)