Pram Face

Burchill 90% not very good, 10% things that stick in you head forever. I agree that it would be nice for her to get her teeth into something that really dealt with her preoccupations. I think she was a pioneer of style over substance. Loved her autobiography though. "I Knew I Was Right" is a great, if slightly hubristic, title for your memoirs.

i heard that a lot of her column is not even written by her. she has loads of ghost writers. someone sent me one of her books 'When i was married' or something i think it's called. i don't dare pick it up, apart from the fact that it's a hard back.

Why don't I? To f**k you off. Why do you insist on unfunny f**king troll names, now that most of the trolling has been demystified and we largely have a good idea who's throwing the punches each time anyway and what's more no-one f**king cares about it, finds it funny, or is in anyway affected by it anymore?

It was brilliant. I was mad as hell when I finished it.

And Vicky, though I challenged your views in my first post (as is my right), the central heating stuff very obviously wasn't a personal attack on you, as I used phrases like (editing out the swear words) "British obsession" , "nation of poofs" , and "this country". I'm sorry you couldn't see that.

What's the male equivalent?

Bus stop face.

Go faster stripes face?

Pastie face - The kind of face that looks like it should be sat in a pushchair sucking on a greggs pastie

half an ounce of golden virginia face

Actually Eartha you're absolutely right... in one way. Of course the working class don't have to avoid seeing people as peers or clients, hell to be honest with you not that many people of any class do. My point was simply that up until I was 18 I was a clone of my sister and because of my ex's family i went a different way. But I can look at her and see myself if things had been different and it frightens me. Can I honestly say I'd rather be with them or with my sister? God yes absolutely. They don't judge me or expect me to fail and I love it. But, as I believe, I mentioned before I honestly want to have money... tell me please.. what's actually wrong with that? As for central heating... I could be wrong but I beleive I was taking the piss out of my younger self. I'm sorry you couldn't see that.

I've got one of those

and the baby equivalent? Tea in a stained bottle face.

fag-face

Professor Pack. > I'll give you a counter-argument - the Sun newspaper and its Hillsborough coverage. Fair point. But I really don't think that the Birch's weekly column consisting of stories about how she'd like to suck Jude Law off compares to the Sun's front page claiming to tell 'the truth' about Hillsborough. It wasn't just looting bodies, they said that Liverpool fans prevented police from attending to the injured and dying and - I might be mistaken here - urinating from the stands on the people trapped below. The resulting boycott of the Sun on Merseyside continues to this day and News Corps have lost a huge amount of money as a result - further evidence of how great scousers are. The Sun has tried to boost sales in certain areas of Merseyside by giving away money-off coupons for the newspaper, which didn't work of course. The Birch winds up the Guardian's middle class wanky readership and gets letters of complaint from Affronted of Crouch End et al who see their names in print and feel all smug and virtuous. The Sun portrays the innocent victims of a preventable disaster as guilty of manslaughter and a huge section of its readership removes their custom. I think those are two different kettles of fish which don't even smell alike.

I always enjoy reading Burchill. That isn't to say that I agree with her - she's just giftedly readable, which is why she'll always have work. * And I'm going to be prissy here and say that I detest the term "pram-face". It's all right to say that we're too PC these days, but are we? Racism and casual anti-gayism are on the increase, are they not? In this last year I've noticed with distaste the increased prevalence of epithets like "pikey" and "council" to describe certain types of working-class people. If middle-class educated people think they are being refreshingly un-PC by using these terms, then they can FO, as far as I'm concerned, and learn some manners. d.beswetherick.

Word.

I'v just spent my wages on the Racing card at Doncaster face.

It's just struck me that possibly this is a kind of unconcious reaction to the fact that people who were commonly excluded from media visibility are now featuring increasingly on TV etc? I remember when you didn't see anyone on telly that you could recognise as working class. With advent of docu soaps etc etc normal people have ended up on telly far more. I think that names like 'pram face' etc are originally made up by people who are nominally from the same group as the people they refer to. Pram Face I reckon probably comes from The Viz originally.

I'm council, and I dont give a flying whatever...

What is central heating?

I haven't got it, but I've heard of it...

Who's Julie Burchill?

...and whats more, the day im too stiff and wrapped in trendy laws as to what i can laugh at and what i can't about myself, i will slit my wrists. It depends on how the joke is levelled - there is a whole world of difference between poking fun and downright spite and venom.

Mark - "I think that names like 'pram face' etc are originally made up by people who are nominally from the same group as the people they refer to." Too right. And the people who object to humour like that are, in the main, those who would totally and utterly freak if a council estate got built on their own doorstep, (oh the horror, eh?) despite many of them growing up on one. Which is something to be proud of, it seems - "oh I grew up on a council estate you know hahaha" Bleurgh. Stuarrrt - no, I havent waited for hours and hours to post that. I'll say it before you do.

I'll get back in my pram now. Three posts in a row. Breaking all the forum laws.. these council estate folks.. no social nicities you know.

there was a term i heard (bot wouldn't dream of using) , the term being "council face-lift" ie a pram face with hair pulled back severely..... (ex-council pramface typie) from the mean estates of bath

thats a good idea *searches for hairband*

it's taken years off you, love....

Thank you darling... I could pass for a 17 year old if it wasnt for my three kids eh? Oh, mind you...

my boyfriend points out that we aren't laughing at the poor ... we are laughing at the stupid ... and he said Beckham has a bus stop face

Stuart - that's the argument I thought you were going to advance. Now, I accept that the irate people that write to the Guardian saying 'blah, blah Burchill, should be strung up' probably DO pick up next Saturday's copy to see if their name is in it, and they might potentially then ring relatives to tell them, who might then buy a copy; but there must also be other people who stop buying as a result. Don't get me wrong, I think the numbers of each are small and that probably a free Moby CD promotion does more for the circulation than anything else, but I don't think that controversy INCREASES the circulation. I don't think it DAMAGES it either, or else professional controversists would be out of a job. The people who like it keep buying the paper and they might recommend it to people, the people who don't have a strong opinion on 'Troller Columnists' keep buying it, and the vast majority of the people who are incensed by the trolling still keep buying it. I think the circulation remains more or less static - what I don't think is that controversy per se (as opposed to genuinely strong writing) does anything to improve circulation. I have to say, she doesn't annoy me half as much as the daily column in the Guardian G2 supplement which purports to be from a website chatroom and is singularly tedious and with no redeeming feature. (I suspect, as a wannabe, it just annoys the hell out of me when people who have the sheer good luck to be employed as writers then make no effort whatsoever)

Grec If you'd wanted me to see that perhaps you should have made it mildly more obvious. The only thing I could see was you having a rant, however rightful you were, and then, as often happens in rants, you realised you'd forgotten something and posted again. Anyway have to get the central heating man in, my raidiators need bleeding... fiddlededee Vicky

mrs. Beckham is a posh pram face. I'd say Becks has a goal post and shiny footie shirt face but that doesn't really work.

I like the idea that I might advance an argument. It makes me sound important. Surely the main reason to become a professional writer is to make money using the minimum amount of effort.

Veering off into a whole new debate now Stuart. Sort of Flaubert v Patchett (flaubert said writing each word was like having it pulled from his flesh by pincers and Patchett just seems to sit down and type whatever comes into his head). (I think both are wrong, but at least Patchett is making some people laugh and earning a fortune, so he's less wrong...) I'd never thought about writing as a career appealing to the terminally lazy rather than the terminally vain, but I guess you're right - if the saturday guardian really pays that Zoe girl enough money to live on for writing a 300 word piece about things you only realise when you don't work for a living, then that is a career path that requires pretty minimal effort. I'd just think with that in mind, that a little bit of self-respect in wanting to at least produce a decent page for your dollar and ostensibly week's work would be what I'd expect from any writer.

why don't you keep your unfunny f**cking comments to yourself greco? don't you just hate whinging scousers? la? di da?

There are a number of complicated points that I need to try and make. The first - and many posters here will know this because of their own backgrounds or because they live in "council" accommodation now - is that the vast majority of people who live in such housing are law-abiding, clean, and no stupider or more tasteless than anyone else in society. For that reason alone "council" used as a derogatory epithet strikes me as objectionable. But there are certainly people living in such housing who live stupidly, crassly, emptily, tastelessly, unhappily, sufferingly, abusively, criminally. The traditionally liberal (OK, PC, if you like) attitude to these people is that they are entitled to the same respect, rights, and opportunities as anyone else - even if it means society's investing in benefits, educational opportunities, childcare, social worker time, or whatever. To me that's as it should be. But let me be personal. If I died tomorrow most of the people at my funeral would be from the council estates in my town. The women I've been out with in the past ten years have all lived in council or housing association property - good clean people who work in shops, pubs, care homes, special educational units, often for insultingly low pay. The female friend who has done the most to look after me during my recent illness is twenty-five, has four kids, three tattoos, drinks pints, and likes Shania Twain and watching porn. I doubt she's ever heard of the expression "pram-face". Oh, and my backdoor neighbour (respectable, works at the co-op, three kids, not well herself) who lives on a council street, has been bringing me down hot meals and goodness knows what, despite my protests. And any sign that I'm broke - which I always am because I'm trying to live the writing life - and she's down here with food for me. (Her line is "Well, if I'm cooking for five I might as well cook for six".) I live on a hill on the way to the council streets and when I see the young mothers pushing their prams up the hill I feel nothing but respect for them. I remember one tiny sweet girl, Nicola, who's left the town now: pregnant at sixteen - says the pill didn't work because of some illness she had (she'd have more credibility on that if she was midddle-class, I'm sure). She had the baby ridiculously prematurely - months - and because the baby was in hospital forty-five miles away, she hardly saw it in the early days, and it later became clear that she'd failed to bond with it. Her mother took over the baby, who's now about five. Nicola had a string of boyfriends and finally moved away with a forty-year old alcoholic and is apparently on the way to becoming one herself. Oh, and her younger brother died in a car crash about six months after her son was born. Despite all of this, Nicola is the most charming and harmless of human beings, an angel, who always ran across the street when she saw me to give me the time of day. I don't regard myself as superior to her in any way. * One last little technical point. I never use the word "council" to describe any housing in my writing, even in a non-derogatory way. That's because in some parts of England housing associations are taking over the council role. The picture is becoming blurred: writers who have no knowledge of what's happening on the ground are probably the likeliest to make a mistake there. d.beswetherick.

Well yes. I agree. I grew up on one, then eventually bought a house, in a "good" part of town. I had disgusting neighbours who wouldnt spit on me if i was on fire, and my kids couldnt play in the street. My car was stolen. Another was vandalised. Another had the hubcaps nicked off it. When I moved back into council (wsell housing assoc, but its a council estate) someone brought me flowers. Someone else knocked on the door to ask if i needed help to work out the boiler system. A girl came round last week with a pile of freshly washed and ironed clothes that "me mam thought will fit your little 'un" It doesnt happen anywhere else, and Im proud of where I live, and wouldnt go back to the "house near the golf course" for quids. Doesnt mean I cant make a joke of it, and to assume that people who live on estates like this wouldnt understand the humour nor read it in the guardian/times/ foums is a little bit patronising...

well oops. Obviously that was me (I left the email addy in in case of people screeching trolling)

As far as I'm aware stereotyping and categorising of people into groups is a fairly universal mechanic.Now if these processes reflect differences between the groups that have some validity in reality people are likely to have a preference for one over another.Is this okay?If so are there groups it is all right to denigrate?If its not okay do we have to try to propagate some sort of total relativism.

It's funny but people forget that stereotyping cuts both ways. Salt and scum both come from the same earth.

What, if you don't mind me asking, is wrong with being poor?

Okay here's a story for ya. I was brought up by middle class, not to wealthy not too poor parents. I was educated privately, courtacy of the Navy, at an all girls bording school where I scraped together enough qualifications to go to university which was expected by my parents. So far so snob. I went to university in Liverpool and it all went tits up, at least as far as the path to wealthy middle class was conserned. I met my first boyfriend when I was 18 in a nightclub and when he brought me back to his home I was well and truly shocked. I had literally never had to live like that and it wasn't even that bad (Christ knows I've lived far worse as an adult) It was a right - to - buy council house, which looked (still does actually) scarily like "the Royal Family" living room complete with alcoholic dad, over worked mum and ex con brother who sat in the chair next to the telly the entire 10 months of my relationship. As far as I know he's still there, although he does leave occasionally to play the fruit machines or pick up the dole. But the thing which shocked me the most at that tender time in my life was the fact that they had NO CENTRAL HEATING. I know this sounds crazy, but even the crappiest Married - Quaters my family had lived in had central heating, I just didn't understand.... it was like another world. Now the point of this story is quite simply this. That home, that family was the most welcoming family i've ever met. They had no money (mum fed all five of uson £10.00 a week) but they never complained about it. They were (still are) pretty damn scarey at times, but they have hearts of gold all of them. Because of that relationship (plus the 9 year friendship that grew from it) I was shown, allowed access to an entirely different way of life than the one I was born into and I'm proud and privilaged to know it. There are interesting, intellegent, caring and strong people in all walks of life if you can just find them. I 'm as at home in a millionairres house as I am in trailer if the people are worth knowing. I don't want to be poor, I don't want to live in a house with no central heating and I won't if I get my bloody @!#$ into gear and sort out my education. There's nothing to be ashamed of in wanting to have money and choices, it's just the people who fear of mixing with "the wrong kind of people" which terrifies me. And what frightens me most of all is that my sister, 30 years old, partner in a law firm, getting married in two weeks on which she's spending 20 grand, sees the world like that, sees people as either peers or clients (family lawyer) and there but for the grace of a scouse family in a poor neighbourhood would I be.

I think Vicky has made some very intelligent and honest observations. I'm middle-class too but I'll be damned if I have to apologise for it. I hope that I value people for themselves, not their bank balances. Unfortunately human beings are naturally divisive, instinctively tribal. The poorest man in a hut will strive to have a better floor or more cooking utensils. You can give the same set of people the same amount of money and there are some that will work hard, steal or con their way to wealth. Those who work damn hard often look down on those who do not try or there may be a more complicated reason: they are terrified of ending up back where they started, so they avoid reminders. Rich and poor is a complicated business. It's too easy to make flash judgements at both ends of the scale...

there's nothing wrong with being poor, just as there's nothing wrong with being moderately impoverished, comfortable, well off or loaded. Waking up every day and thinking, "What can I take today" is wrong and it's done by as many poor people as rich.

Was it Birchill recycling her endless column about PopBitch, by any chance? The woman has six columns - Madonna being not talented but successful, Guy Ritchie being posher than he pretends, Brighton council blah blah, the war on Iraq is a good thing, don't look down at pop-culture like Atomic Kitten and Girls Aloud and Big Brother and one half-decent one about abestos that she pulls out once a year to make her look like a proper journalist. The proper PopBitch derogatory insult is only really for the mediocre stars we have, who still look like they are from an estate and is simply 'Council'. (Not necessarily agreeing with the sneering at poor thing, but the insult itself is fairly apt - surely we can at least expect miming popstars to look amazing and otherworldly, they serve very little other purpose)

And don't forget last week's venomous rant about Mel and Sue who, although at best bland and mediochre, are fairly harmless.

You read her column every week though? You seem to know parts of it off by heart. Now what does that tell us?

Lol. Don't take this the wrong way, Vicky, but you remind me a little of film-maker Mike Leigh, patting the head of the working class, saying, "aw how sweet; why can't we all live with this outlook". I'm a classic mix-up, brought up in a hard working class family with w. class attitudes, with a desire to class climb (at least in terms of living conditions) and a strong belief in education for a better life. So I get the Royale family deal at relatives' homes at chrimbo time, I've done the fake poverty thing at uni, I live in a nice self-renovated house in a fashoinable part of Manchester now (ex-council, natch). But you see, the w. class don't avoid seeing people as "either peers or clients", they just don't have to. W. class people get a job, enough money to get by, and they are by and large happy. If they want more in life, they just work harder. I rather suspect your sister has little choice to view life this way, in order to survive in her field. Different jobs require different attitudes. And can you honestly say you'd sooner spend an evening back at your ex's listening to a distorted footy game on medium wave and the dipso papa cutting the cheese, to a night of rocket salad, snorting coke, fine wine and Sky TV at your sister's?