vegan

Hello all, what a wonderful discussion. I consider myself something of a "localist." I am vegan most of the year, but when it is legal I do go out and hunt for deer and wild turkey (the animal not the whiskey). I would go out and fish but I don't really enjoy it. So most of my omnivourous life I eat a vegan diet, but then for a little while in the fall and winter I get tasty, wild, meats that I have harvested and butchered with my own hand. It is quite wonderful. Thanks J

I was a vegetarian for 15 years. During that time, I was abused and pilloried by vegans who told me I wasn't a proper vegetarian because I drank milk. And in that time nearly all of them went back to meat. And I thought we were on the same side, but apparently not. I have gone back to eating meat - three years ago now, and believe me, meat is on the whole not nice - where did the flavour go? Most Bacon was disgusting and water filled, eggs metallic tasting, chicken flavourless and steak just a waste of meat - to give steak/pork/lamb flavour these days, you have to marinate - that says everything! It saddens me that animals give their life to create such crap food. The reason is intensive farming techniques and the supermarket culture. I was going back to vegetarianism until I went to a small island in Greece where they produced all their food extensively locally. Pigs and cows, chickens running about freely(ish). I had bacon and eggs, a cob with butter on it and a glass of milk for breakfast and was transported back in time - food had flavour!!! It's then that I realised that it's a waste of time buying any intensively farmed, or produced food, especially meat. It's like every Chef program you see - find out where stuff comes from (meat, vegetable etc.) and how it's produced - and organic does not neccesarily mean flavour. Stay away from supermarkets - they fuel bad/mass farming techniques, and I have not tasted any diference bewteen organic and non-organoic food in supermarkets yet. Go back to greengrocers, chat to the poeple who know their produce. Get a decent butcher/fishmonger - never ever buy farmed salmon, it's absolutely disgusting. Glad you're a vegan Ferg, keep it up. It's only by our buying habits that we can change things. But with a nation who thinks chicken nuggets are a rare delicacy, I have little hope.

f you feel good, good for you! For me, In Maharashtra and Gujarat, a grand procession of men soaked with coloured water walks through the streets with a mock alert call that asks to take care of pots of butter and milk as Krishna comes in. This refers to Krishna's habit of stealing butter and milk stored in terracotta pots from people's homes. There is also a tradition of hanging a pot of buttermilk high up in the street. Men forming a human staircase try to break this pot,and whoever succeeds is crowned the Holi king of the locality for that year. All these traditions come as a mock show to relive the acts if Krishna, who popularised Holi in its present forms. As a child, Krishna was extremely fond of milk and milk products. He would prowl into any accessible house with his friends and steal pots of butter or break pots of milk. oooh and what about cheese! I love cheese! Do you? will you miss it?

Life without cheese. I don't think such an existence is tenable for me. To be honest, I don't eat much cheese nowadays (except special cheeses that I'm given as presents), but the thought of never being able to taste cheese again, frightens me. That said, I've given up cows milk in all its other forms and I don't eat meat (but I do eat fish, cos I need to have something sensible to barbecue). Go for it Fergs.

Life without cheese would be like a day without sunshine. Can you get vegan cheese? Is it made from wellies?

I used to love cheese - nay I do love cheese - but I don't miss it. I wouldn't mind cheese made from the milk of a happy cow in my own orchard, but not a mechanical pump one. I'll probably miss cream cakes more.

never mind, maybe you'll wake up tomorrow morning and be a carnivore again.

are you saying I'm fickle Dan? (moi?)

cos I'm not. honest. It just takes me a while to get the genuine fergal extricated from the silly faux one.

not fickle, or is the not the first day you've woken up a vegan? just that what suddenly happens for no good reason may equally suddenly unhappen. Or maybe they'll find an antidote to phosphorous.

I woke up this morning to discover I was no longer a Catholic but a Christian Scientist! Blimey...how could I have got it soooo wrong for sooo long? sorry Ferg! love ya!

I'm with you, fergal. I get more prone to veganism every day, although I'm not so sure I could go 100% and cut out honey. I love honey, and I don't think bees necessarily feel exploited; maybe pissed off. I go on and off of eggs; when I -think- about what they are (essentially, chicken periods), I go off for a loong time. Like right now. *pulls face* Cheese I eat little of; again, it's what it -is- that disgusts me (I like to consider possible historical factors surrounding the discovery of cheese). The husband is a huge fan of organic, vegetarian extra-stinky farmhouse cheddar. My son (who is seven) LOVES Danish blue and will eat it straight out of the wrapper (gulk!). I wouldn't miss either them (the cheeses, that is) at all. Just do what feels right for you, is my philosophy. Very occasionally I get a huge hankering to tear into the roasted flesh of a hapless chicken, and enjoy licking the grease off my fingers, much to the husband's disgust. But it gets more infrequent as the years go on.

THE FERGAL BOY BLUES I woke up this morning (da daa da da dum) My woman was gone (da daa da da dum) I said when I woke up this morning (da daa da da dum) my sweet baby was gone (da daa da da dum) she done left me a letter (da daa da da dum) and here's what it said (da daa da da dum) I just realised I'm a vegan with a murderer in my bed coz you're a meeeeeeat lover baby and I can't just watch you eatin' cow (da da da da da da da da da daaa dum) I gotta fiiiiiind me some pulses coz baby I'm a vegan now! (da dum, da dum, da dum, da dum.... da daaaaaaaa)

If you are a vegan, can you still talk to Fish?

My... I have to say I always admire someone when they tell me they take a disciplined approach to eating and being a vegan well that is quite a bit of discipline. I did this cleansing "diet" for lack of a better word a few years ago and I had to give up a lot of things I liked. I really surprised myself. It was only for a week and I swear when the week was over I thought my tongue was going to jump out of my mouth and molest a cow! but I did well..I don't think I would do well with anything longterm though But Good luck to you!!!!!!

i hope so ...

Veganism has always seemd crazy to me - but, as you say, this is not the time or place for the debate on it and if it suits you then do it! However you can find some wonderful truly organic, happy animal stuff about these days - and I would keep those as treats for your soul when the moong beans get just a tad repetitive.

During my first trip to Europe in 1971 I found myself dockside in Bergen Norway. There, a man was selling fresh fish from a fish tank. Customers ordered the fish in varying degrees of preparation: just the head cut off to kill the fish, head cut off and gutted, or a full filet job. I stood there watching this artist for hours. He could gut a fish and sling the innards into the bay in one continous movement. Amazing. Some teenagers asked him for the guts, which they used as bait in an attempt to catch some fish from the dock. Then nearby there was an indoor market with the dead chickens hanging upside down, the smoked wild game, the rabbits, the geese--an edible zoo. Since then I've loved visiting markets of that type all over the world. Once, also in Norway, I watched a 45 minute TV program in which a butcher demonstrated how to carve up a side of beef. He went all the way down to getting the marrow out of the bones. It was fascinating. So the idea of soggy buckwheat in a bucket does not really grab me. Each to his own, of course.

dont they do the fish thing in poland too james? At christmas?

I've always thought that any kind of veggie diet is a denial of the basic fact that humans are carnivores. 'Civilisation' has done much to hinder the normal progress of life among us. I have absolutely no problem with being a carnivore, though I often wonder how many more of us would shy away from a fillet steak or lamb cutlet if we had to kill our own meat. I also wonder how 'wild' animals (as kept in zoos) would fare if they were returned to the wild after spending their entire lives being fed dead meat. Would they baulk at killing to survive; I doubt it. And the same would apply to us I guess, given the right degree of hunger we would mostly grimace and kill our own food. Some have even killed each other in times of desperation. As a youngster I could never thread a worm on a fish hook however, and as an adult the only fish I eat is pre-executed. Big Ears would probably argue that as you cut down your veggie food the plants feel pain, and therefore there's not much difference between veggiedom and full-blown carnivoredom.

Oh, I wouldn't be a vegan if I didn't live in this country, or some other country with plenty and choice and the rest. I realise I am in a very priviliged position to be able to choose to omit things from my diet. Have been a vegan for 2 weeks now and can report a boost in health, spirits and general feelings of well-being. I can also report my talent for cooking has entered a whole new level. Last night I invented banana muffins that had no eggs, no milk, no butter and were still delicious, even to various non-vegans passing through my flat. There is a shop in Norwich which sells vegan pastries and stuff, so I don't have to even miss out on stuff my face whilst walking through the market place. Thing I miss most: cheese, melted cheese especially. Thing I don't miss at all and find surprising: milk. The vegan chocolate out there is unsurpassable. NOT Carob chocoloate, which tastes like chunks of mud out of the sole of a walking boot, but proper 87% cocoa solid stuff that is so good I might just elope with it. I've lost a bit of weight too, although that is a side effect I couldn't care one or another about.

Humans aren't carnivores, though - aren't we omnivores?

Well...I see missi's point, but if I had the opportunity to go out and kill my own meat and get my own milk, I would have no problem. My problem is with the methods used in mass farming. That is not 'natural' as such, just a by-product of trying to produce cheap food. Plants don't have a nervous system, so that argument is silly. I liked Ely's song. I could imagine Gareth singing that - though as I keep making cakes and crumbles and other stuff, but with no animal products, I don't think he's noticed the difference. I made him a bacon buttie this morning for breakfast. But I'm pass him my banjo and make him perform it just for fun. I'm not squeamish about meat or anything. I don't think it's 'murder'. That's just silly. Also, I swear that I'm eating really tasty stuff. I used to think of vegan food as insipid - but that's silly. There is so much stuff out there. Of course, Dan is right, I may well wake up and be a meat eater again. Or at least a milk drinker. Oh, and I am quite fickle actually, so I suppose I thought you'd called my hand there Dan.

Fergal, Go out and kill rabbits, pheasants and deer. The deer population in this country is now so healthy, they need culling. You can then happily munch away on game pie, roast pheasant and venison burgers. You can also sew the skins together to make your clothing. Environmentally friendly and money saving. j

I agree with ferg. If I could kill my own food, i'd feel happier about it (once i got over the initial squeamishness). I don't want to eat antibiotic bacon or chicken breast from a bird that has been made artificially obese. I might eat meat again(no meat for 13 years), if I go really organic, or if my (naturally obese) labrador trips me up again. He's feed me for weeks.

I've killed an eaten plenty of shellfish. Does that count.

I suppose the main reason to do it, for me, is that I feel we have become so disconnected with the sources of our food, we think everything comes in packets. If you've ever seen a calving cow's reaction to having her calf taken straight away (usually a big glut of tears and a bit of neurosis) it would be hard to not be moved. I think. I was a vegetarian for about 5 years, but never felt good about the milk thing. Takes all sorts though, and as I said, I would never go about telling others that veganism is 'the way'. That would be silly on my part.

Rokkitnite is right: we're omnivores. We have both kinds of teeth in our mouths. But I agree about the mass farming thing; it's gross, it's horrible. I was a vegetarian for about five years, but started craving a large rack of barbecued beef ribs from a restaurant on the border of Texas and New Mexico called, funnily enough, The State Line. Absolute ambrosia, those ribs. So I fell off the wagon. Now I'm slowly hopping back on. I do get grossed out with the thought of how our food is so processed. I'm sure I'll glow in the dark for a thousand years after they bury me.

Ok, if you wanna be pedantic, we're omnivores, but we're STILL carnivorous.

We're omnivores with the doubled edged gift of choice.

Liana, most fish in Poland are either from fish farms (lakes) or from the Baltic. Carp at Christmas is a tradition, but i've never seen a fresh fish place here like I saw in Bergen Norway. Of course, in Thailand and Cambodia you can go to restauarants with live fish in tanks (or crabs etc), but that can be found in many cities. In Bangkok I love the food courts. The fish are not live (except crab of course), but they are very fresh and on ice. You pick out the sea bass you want and a little while later they deliver a whole steamed fish to your table. Yum.

In a restaurant in Chiang Mai the owner had tied a live crab up on a string as an enticement to eat in his restaurant. Poor little thing, stuck swinging there on his pendulum of death.

why didn't it cut the string eh? If I was hanging by string I couldn't imagine a better thing to be equipped with than a crab claw.

ha ha.. yep... must have been a ditzy crab.

Maybe the 'string' was in fact animal sinew and it was a vegan crab.

Oooh, I like that better.

In a restaurant in Indonisia (on of those Japanese style places where they cook everything on a hotplate in front of you). Chef puts a live tiger prawn onto plate and covers it with an inverted metal bowl. Above the sizzle "Plawn not having velly good time now"

Fergal wouldn't like Namibia - most of the country's too dry to grow crops but has lots of scrub for animals to eat, so everywhere you go there's massive steaks served with hardly any veg. We ate nearly as many species of animals as we saw. Isn't Hindusim great - a god who goes around stealing people's milk ...

Cruelty in farming is abhorrent - and the vast majority of it is completely unnecessary. I was brought up on a farm and wrung my first chicken's nect aged 6 and slit my first pig's throat aged 8. OK so I don't do a lot of that these days but I have no qualms about it. I was a veggie for a few years but drifted away - and now I'm very careful about the origin of the meat - and other animal products - that I eat. believe you me the 'happy' meat tastes a whole lot better.

which brings me back to my point of hunting deer and rabbit in this country...happy beasts, (until) humanely slaughtered by my own hand And I help cull. There are too many silly laws about shooting. I don't think we should get gun happy like America but a powerful air-rifle can take out rabbits or they can be caught in humane traps and then killed with a knife

*wrinkles nose* Ewww. I think fergal's veganism is sounding more appetising as we go along...