Help me get In touch with my inner leftie!

That's one of the reasons I like Thomas Aquinas as a theologian. His ideas are easily understood. However I don't think McCabe is being overly complex here - not to anyone who has studied politics. It is just I am from a scientific background and therefore do not understand the vocabulary being employed. His chapters on the triduum and creation I got!

In which case, I think he's saying that Christians 'should' be involved in the class struggle, and that struggling for class equality, politically, is not against Christian tenets, theologically. He could've said it with fewer words, I think!!

thanks!

Jude, In that introductory paragraph he isn't actually saying very much at all but what I get the impression he's building up to saying is that: - Christians who consider themselves left-wing generally think a better society will come about by everyone deciding to be good or to be nicer to each other. -This will never happen because there is a struggle between different class interests. Class struggle, as you've pointed out, isn't (necessarily) a physical battle but is (very simplistically) the struggle for wealth and power between those who have it and those who don't. -As Christianity is based on the concept of a moral battle between good and evil/right and wrong rather than an amoral scrap between competing class interests, Thatcher, Stalin and co believe that Christians cannot recognise or take part in class struggle. -Herbert MacCabe disagrees. He reckons that the only way for a good society/world to come about is through class struggle. It's workers vs. bosses, or haves vs. have nots and, in his view, Jesus is on the side of the workers.

Of course since Christ was a Jew not a socialist he would have charged for the food created by the miracle of the loaves and fish(es). However, of course it was a myth to cover up the truth that the crowd all brought sandwitches... but being Jews it took a miracle to get them to share with the unfortunates who came unprepared.

Okay...I shall read on and let you know why he thinks that. My immediate reaction is disagreement but I'll hold that off and give him a chance.

Another one-liner wasted.

Yes, it's a bin-liner that's required.

I trust you were being facetious, Smilester...

To be perfectly clear on the matter my two posts have absof*ckinglotuly nothing to do with Iraq or the Da Vinci Code. I will hasten to add that my posts are just cynical. Thanks.

I was being several things, Ag. Humour was not my primary consideration but I try to add a dash of facetiousness where I can... ;o)

I would be curious to see what form of 'struggle' he is talking about, jude...do let us know... Cheers.

Cynicism is just a tad too subtle for Scarborough, Nikki.

Morning, Gordon... Oops, sorry, Gordon was the other moron.

AND they're off!!!

:o)

It's simply a struggle for control of your thoughts and actions. You must submit to the will of something/someone in higher. The government can have your body, god wants your mind. Eventually, your body will follow where the mind goes. It's a clever way of dictating what you should ultimately think, thus also do. It's bullshit. You have to choose what is best and suffer the consequences of your actions amongst other men. There is no answer. You either live or die.

I really ought to archive these threads and then serialise you guys' quibblings. I'm sure I could retire early on the proceeds.

Jude, I think David is basically on the mark, especially when he says your author didn't really say much of anything in those paragarphs.

Sorry Denver but I can't see how you extrapolated that. I think I get it now Bobbleht's explained - only another 5 pages to go! j

Isn't that what I said? *goes back and checks* Yup.

MM, I've been archiving the forums since they first began, I can assure you there's far far better serialisation material available than the juvenile rantings of the twat in Scarborough, followed by my infantile admonishments. :o) x 10,000

What a pack of sniveling little chicken shits you lot are. I won't be withdrawing my statements nor ducking for cover! F*ck Democracy: it the Feudalistic game for cowards in masks to begin with, and it will end as such! Quote: "Democracy is more important than global stability" (JW BUSH)...then the stupid little twat launches an offensive on Iraq's border towns to confront Syria from. Nice work, dickhead, Syria's only backed by Russia and China..lol Errrr....HERRRREEEESS JOHNNIE!

I didn't extrapolate Jude. The premise rests on an assumption you are a Christian.... It all depends on what viewpoint you start with. I'm not a Christian and apply critical thinking from that viewpoint. When I read it, that's what I resolve. It is from my viewpoint, a purely objective comprehension. (from another, it would appear subjective)

yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

LOL...where ya been brown eye?

Oh I see - well that it starts with a Xtian premise is pretty obvious - I ddn't actually need that bit explaining but thanks

Any ideas for the title? "Tits for Tatting: The Art of One-Upmanship" sounds good... lol!

RadioDenver, there is no such thing, in humans, as a 'purely objective' comprehension. Even the most 'objective' observer is still coloured by his/her own worldview.

When will some people understand that they will manipulate you with their wars and with their peace? it's as simple as that, if Bush or any Bush attacks your country you simply have to defend yourself any way you can. If you don't do it then you will just have to grin and bear it. But "Bush" will try! and then "Bush" will win entirely or gain something from it! The Iraqi COULD have created more problems had they ALL been one body one soul against the "invaders", I guess most of them indeed saw them as "liberators" ... Do you have any idea what it IS to be a muslim Arab? they are supposed to be tough people, tough warriors, if not ruthless and merciless! Mr Bush is just using anything he can to inspire his soldiers ... money, scholarships, careers... we all know where he gets them and enlists them! But they have the Koran and their land is a difficult place for battles -- only they know it well enough to fight at least for a decade without surrendering. I don't believe that Iraq has been liberated: it has been invaded, but the people of Iraq saw in those invaders some kind of liberators and this only helps the plans of the "big sharks". You see, any autocracy is brute and there is a feeling of liberation when the more gentle political situations even those that involve military action overthrow tyrants. I don't need any proof that there have been genocides in Iraq to such an extent that many were profoundly terrorized and it was this terror that had been ruling their lives for years and years that made the 'new terror' of a violently forced democracy more agreeable. If they attack Syria we will see... I seriously doubt that they will. Total war awaits them there... In Syria things ARE agreeable and the people of Syria ARE united. Of course my mind (and your minds) are too normal and too naive to grasp how sick and dirty are the games of war, autocrats and "liberators" "big sharks" and politicians are playing. I don't believe the lies of Bush, but I also don't believe the lies of Saddam. I don't applaud the deeds of Bush, but I also don't applaud the deeds of Saddam. I just feel sorry for all the people who suffer because of such 'great men' and such 'great ideas'.

Er, yes. To whom are you referring? Jesus and Bush are connected by...(?)

Er, to whom it may concern. Jesus!

I said that didn't I.

(I was not answering your question archergirl with that Jesus! okay? okay.) I try not to think about Bush. I will suffer from nightmares if I do.

correction: about Bush's spirituality. Okay I think I had enough of 'Bush-s/hit' for today.

S'okay, KC. We all need to go off on one about the Shrub every now and then... ;-D

God was burning Bush when he issued The Ten Commandments, Ag ;o) Sadly, it seems, Bush survived and lately set fire to Iraq as an act of revenge.

It's the way you tell it, baby.

Yes, he seems to have the unfortunate (for us) ability to survive most anything thrown at him, even questions about his competence as a leader. *sighs mournfully*

Strange that... incompetent, war mongering, lying, B's in power all over the place :o)

No doubt, eventually, people will realise that they were really total C's.

Is this the way to Amarillo? No, it's the road to Damascus. Oh, I was blind but now I see... Amazing grace...

Oops, forgot "too".

I meant Christians - of course...

Gabriel was supposed to be loved by that God bloke, wasn't he.....didn't God also say love is infinite and hence can't be taken back, but don't flux with me or I'll kill ya chooks and shoot ya dog to, ya basket-cases? Class is pecking order and Homer's the second chook to fiddle around with the roof!

There is certainly a difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. Quite fundamental differences in attitude.

Jesus was a crock of Hebrew shit, whose true idenity was stolen from the Greeks and satirically used by Florence (Medici) to inspire future generations towords both Church and patriotism (the backbone of capitalism)...they are the same monster. And artistic propaganda was always their only vehicle, while War is simply a consequence of fear which is used to divert attention when nothing else works nor matters! And KC, you are a fool to think that Bush won't take Syria head on. He's too stupid not to! And yes, Syria is united. But it will not be just Syrians who'll fight America there! During the first squirmish in Iraq, The Russians, The Chinese, and The French, warned Bush that they will stand against America if it dared try to totally dominate Iraq by force? Sadam's overthrow and the liberation of Iraq, which is happening now, is a rouse! What you are really watching is the Prologue of WW3. Bush won't kill Sadam either, btw! You see, Sadam still has the worlds deadliest weapon, which was purposely designed years ago by a very precious Iraqi female scientist. She genetically engineered a useable form of Aerobic Ebola......like incurible haemorrhagic fever..... explodes the eyes of the host within the first hour of contact.....so they can't shoot at what they can't see...pretty cool, hey? Careful kids.....you'll see the truth soon enough....count on it!

I just realised I left the book at home and I'm not back until Sunday, so you'll have to wait for the next installment.

Having been misunderstood earlier - I find that I am now over-clarifying... just to clarify :o)

I have just googled him to get other people's opinions. I found this quite funny in an obituary. By 1965, when McCabe became editor of New Blackfriars, the Dominican journal of culture and philosophy, he had begun to combine his knowledge of Aquinas with a commitment to radical politics on behalf of the poor--a kind of politics he learned from both Marx and Jesus. He was sacked as editor of New Blackfriars in 1967 for remarking in one of his widely anticipated monthly editorials that the Church "is quite plainly corrupt." After his reinstatement three years later he began his first editorial, "As I was saying before I was so oddly interrupted." ha ha - brilliant