Shilpa Shetty

Going on from your point about Edwina Curry, Buk - what I find ironic, from the discussions in the media, is the class thing. On the one hand it’s suspected that Shilpa’s treatment has as much to do with class prejudice as race prejudice and on the other, commentators seem to feel free to slag off the offending girls by basically saying, well what do you expect from three chavs from the thick, ignorant underclass. I may be naive, but what I found the most shocking was their apparent lack of education, yet it doesn’t seem to be a matter of debate. It shouldn’t be a given that if you’re from a certain background you’re going to leave school with massive gaps in your knowledge and understanding. I may be kidding myself that it’s ever been any better, but I suspect the centrifugal effect of those bloody stupid league tables have a lot to answer for. ~ www.fabulousmother.com

Bloody bb farce. There were 100 complaints until this shit went to press. Now there are 30+ thou. It's a load of old media bollocks. I'm sure if they could control the weather they'd give us a hurricaine every time news was sparse. Daddy, take the banana! Tomorrow it's Sunday! - Faust

"Going on from your point about Edwina Curry, Buk - what I find ironic, from the discussions in the media, is the class thing. On the one hand it’s suspected that Shilpa’s treatment has as much to do with class prejudice as race prejudice and on the other, commentators seem to feel free to slag off the offending girls by basically saying, well what do you expect from three chavs from the thick, ignorant underclass." Well, people that write for newspapers and produce TV programmes - as opposed to the people who appear in them - are almost universally from the intelligentsia now (however poor their original backgrounds may have been). There is (rightly) quite a lot of middle-class people of colour in positions of power in the mainstream national media - there's literally no one at all who isn't relatively intelligent and relatively well-off, based on their professional status. That's not insult to these people - many of whom have reached the position they're in on merit, through hard work - but this situation means that there's a tendency to dwell on the 'otherness' of people like Jade. I don't know whether members of the notional underclass are really proportionately more ignorant in terms of their general lack of interest in other people and the world beyond themselves than the rest of the population. My guess it that they just express their positions more crudely and at greater cost to themselves. And the ignorance and lack of education isn't the whole problem. Lots of people don't know much about India or Indian culture, that doesn't automatically cause them to bully Indian people. In this case, if Jade was asking Shilpa stupid, poorly- informed but friendly questions about her culture, there wouldn't be a problem.

If anyone fancies a laugh on the whole Jade Goody fiasco, this week's News Quiz on Radio 4 is well worth a listen: Armando Ianucci, Phil Jupitus, Sandi Toksvig, Alan Coren and Andy Hamilton. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/newsquiz.shtml ...then click 'Listen Again'. It's in the first 5 minutes of the show. Sandi Toksvig observed that the grandfather of one of the producers of BB was the man responsible for the sewers in Victorian London. 'Good to know' she said 'that his family is still providing a conduit for shit'.

I've just heard on the radio that Jade's supporters in her home turf of Bermondsey are staging a protest against the public and media outcry against her. Good grief! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

there was a great cartoon in the paper yesterday, depicting a crowd in India with placards. They all read "Down with Big Brother" "Big Brother is Evil" etc except one which said "Bargain Hunt's Rubbish Too" jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Hanif Kureishi was on the radio this morning talking about his latest film, 'Venus', about an elderly impotent lecher with an infatuation for a Jade Goody-type young woman. Kureishi had me coughing on my breakfast when he referred to Jade as 'this revolting minger'.

I feel rather sorry for Jade. All this is a storm in a teacup, imo. Who amongst the entire population of the world hasn't said something nasty to someone else in the heat of the moment and regretted it afterward?

True. The difference is, though, that she did it in the full knowledge that it was being witnessed by several million people. I can appreciate that Jade is who she is - the same as the rest of us are - because of a particular combination of things that have or haven't happened to her in her life. In that sense, perhaps, some of her behaviour can be understood. I'm not sure I feel sorry for her, though. She knew what she was doing. I'm not sure that attempting to understand a person's behaviour and feeling sorry for them are necessarily the same thing. If she takes every opportunity she can to make reparations (apparently, she's also been invited to India in an effort to assist her cultural understanding) and if she's truly sorry for what happened, then fair enough.

I still think it's silly, and I still feel sorry for her. Imagine being 25, rather unworldly, not especially intellectually astute, mouthing off at someone you don't like (for whatever unconscious reasons one has for such things, which are manifold), and being not only vilified in your own school/city/county/country, but internationally, for an off-the-cuff comment. I've said some stupid shit in my time, and I still wince at the thought of it, but done on the world stage it would be unbearable. Prince Philip has said worse about the denizens of countries he's visited, and there's a minor stink in the press, then it's forgotten. The bullying and ganging-up on Shilpa are a different matter, but again, nothing surprising in human nature, is it? I don't think people *do* realise they're doing it on national telly, not really. If one is locked up in a house with a series of unbearable people, 24/7, I think one would be inclined to forget one is on telly when having to deal with that particular pressure. What seems transparent to us on the 'outside', may not necessarily be so on the 'inside'. Especially if you're not particularly bright. I think this is all a ploy to boost ratings.

"Imagine being 25, rather unworldly, not especially intellectually astute..." ...and also very rich and extremely famous, and with a huge fanbase hanging on your every word. She isn't exactly the average woman of her type. I really don't think she's so daft as 'not' to realise she's on television in front of millions of people. From what I've seen of her in the past, she enjoys the publicity. Fame's what she wanted, and she's got it. And now she's realising on of the big downsides of it - the way you have to take on some extra responsibility in considering the things you say and do. Things can be taken way out of context by the media, of course - but in Jade's case, the evidence is all there for everyone to see and hear (though I realise that selective editing had its role to play). Jade's been in the business a year or two now. I'm sure she has a retinue of publicists, agents and advisers to help her deal with the pressures or whatever. Sure, she's lacking in maturity - like a lot of people her age. But, again... she's totally unlike most people not only of her age, but of any age, in her money and celebrity. This'll obviously be a hard and painful lesson for her to learn, and I hope she comes out of it the better for it. I hope she'll redeem herself from it all and go on to do something more worthwhile than play 'celebrity for celebrity's sake'. And I also hope people will leave her alone eventually. But... I still don't feel sorry for her. Sorry.

"Prince Philip has said worse about the denizens of countries he's visited, and there's a minor stink in the press, then it's forgotten". Rather than celeb big brother, I suggest C4 get Prince Philip to live on the Aylesbury Estate for 4 weeks (a bit like in 'The Queen and I') - I'd watch that. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

God, that *would* be brilliant viewing, wouldn't it?! AB, I do see what you mean. But from my experience, you can take the girl out of the country (or estate, as Jade's case may be) but you can't take the country/estate out of the girl. Money and publicists don't make much difference and certainly wouldn't give her any wisdom (compassion, class, fill in the blank).

Have to say something, While Jade's behaviour has been disgusting I wouldn't say she was racist per-se. As has been mentioned many times none of those involved are BNP canditates. The lady in question is disgusted enough with how she acted, partly PR maybe, but as already acknowledged, the girl's been driven by a PR machine for the last few years. IMO she's too daft to show anything other than herself. I'd have to agree with AG. The underclass, for whatever reasons wouldn't see anything wrong with her behaviour or what she'd say.They're not racist they just seem to talk a different language from everyone else. They mean nothing by it, wrong as it is. To them that'sjust how it is, such comments to mainstream society are deeply insulting, more through discomfart. I should add I'm quite tuned into such wording and many people, through parentage etc, are fucking niave to such matters of culture, so they don't see anything wrong with expressing such sentiments. Even often the most liberal. I think that's the problem, it hit a nerve in British society. After all take Indian out of the equation and look at our comedy award winning shows which win awards from being non- PC. That's what we need to look at rather than looking for an escaped goat, (sorry couldn't help it) It was all wrong, without a doubt, but more should be done rather than just look at those involved, the UK needs to look at it's attitudes as a whole. Craig, (the writer formly known as 'nobod'y, too many slanderous allegations forced a name change).

' ...deeply insulting, more through discomfart. I should add I'm quite tuned into such wording ... ' I can see where you're coming from!

I suppose given that I was brought up on a pretty rough South London council estate, was a delinquent in my early teens and didn't really begin to get any education until I was in my late 20s, I can identify with Jade a bit. But I was bullied all the way through school, and have been at times during my working life, too - so I've never had a lot of sympathy with bullies. Now Jade's getting a taste of it herself, if you like. I genuinely hope it does her good.

I did think of changing the diccomfort but thought fart did describe it all better. slanderous allegations of people saying nobody did this and nobody did that. Craig

Nobody made those sort of allegations, or at least nobody meant them, and nobody took them seriously.

ha ha, it was meant tongue in cheek, I'm not that sensitive, Anyway interesting article in todays Guardian on this issue. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1996384,00.html Craig

This is an interesting article, Moimo/Nobody/Craig, and quite topical. There is a very fine line between acceptable language/attitudes and those that slip into being most inappropriate, I guess. Case in point: I have to admit that Mr. AG and I often joke about buying something at the village Paki shop (the owners are quite clearly not Pakistani, but Indian), and mean it in no derogatory sense whatsoever. Neither of us are racist in the slightest, and would be outraged if someone attacked, verbally or whatever, the local shopowners, because of their ethnicity. Further, I have an Australian friend who used to work as the housekeeper for some wealthy folk in Herne Hill, many years ago. We used to joke that she was the 'housenigger', and found it hilarious, whilst acknowledging that had we used such a term a little further down the road in Brixton, we'd probably have had our arses kicked, deservedly. But again, neither of us hold any truly racist views at all. In some ways, this whole debate on racist language is worthy as it may promote some introspection as to one's deeper beliefs; on the other hand, as illustrated in Moimo's article, it's possible to use so-called racist language outside of a racist context. As well, surely there must be some understanding that there *are* differences in ethnicity/culture/skin etc., and that noting the differences through use of language, does not necessarily mean that there are true hostilities towards the differences. For some, yes, there are most likely to be undercurrents of hostility toward people of different ethnic backgrounds, or at least some suspicion of their 'Otherness'. But for many (and probably this would include the hapless Miss Goody) the language is quite unconnected and is used more as an emphasis on obvious differences, rather than outright nastiness toward other ethnicities. Maybe I have a naive viewpoint on this as race and ethnicity are more points of interest for me rather than points of division: I am clearly white and wear Western dress, so if I see someone with brown skin wearing a sari, I notice the difference, but it really does end there.

"But again, neither of us hold any truly racist views at all." As has been mentionned above with reference to Jade, it doesn't make you an ideological racist or a white supremicist but I think the view that it doesn't matter to joke about calling people racist names is a racist view. The words Paki and Nigger are in the dictionary as insults. There are plenty of descriptions for Black and Asian people that aren't insults but which obviously don't provide the guilty pleasure you get from refering to someone as a Paki. Using 'Paki shop' is at least the equivalent of calling a large lady 'fat bitch' - which is also a guilty pleasure for many people.

popadom Daddy, take the banana! Tomorrow it's Sunday! - Faust

I think that of all the sins one can perpetrate against one's fellow human being: rape, murder, torture, physical, emotional and mental brutality, neglect, indifference, and actual hatred of others, calling the local shop a Paki shop in jest is rather far down the list, Bukh. You might feel differently. I'd never call a fat woman a 'fat bitch'. 'Fat slag', perhaps. (I'm joking)

That is a really good article, imo. There is certainly something in the argument that rampant advocates of multiculturalism are asking the wrong things of people, and making the situation worse rather than better. "The words Paki and Nigger are in the dictionary as insults." But so are many other words that people use lightly. Not sure where I stand when it comes to 'joking' about racism. I know I do use racist terms here and there, in the same manner that I carefully outline to my flatmate the logic of not paying him the money I owe him, or advocate an overly elaborate revenge plan against someone, ie. to elicit an indignant/disbelieving reaction. Obviously, this only happens in the company of people who know not to take me at all seriously. The pleasure (I'm not sure I'd say 'guilty pleasure'), as with many jokes, is in the absurdity. In most jokes, we're talking logical absurdity, but moral absurdity in jokes is also a pretty regular feature. I'm not sure I would defend these actions as totally harmless, but equally, I am not sure I like the idea of a moral order that confines all actions to being totally harmless. There's something to the fact that 'politically incorrect' has become a positive idea. People like breaking rules, or seeing them broken, even if they agree with the rules in principle, and will work within them most of the time. Not understanding this is what leads American presidents to lambast the Simpsons. So I think you need a far better way of combatting racism than to simply make certain terms taboo, and to shake your head when people inevitably stoop to whispering them into each other's ears and tittering.

A few questions: 1. Why would you NOT think Jade is a racist? Does the fact that you want to like someone / feel sorry for them have you face the consequences of their actions / feel that they are maligned etc make a particular action not racist? Or, in other words, does racism only exist in the eye of the beholder? 2. Is racism an actual, quantifiable thing, or is it something that only exists if someone feels it to exist? (context? situation? people present?) 3. Is 'pretending to be black' racist? Is doing a dodgy accent racist or redeploying a gross national stereotype racist? Can something be racist and in jest and good natured? 4. Is it asking a lot for people who are a minority in a country to always laugh good naturedly at things that mock them / their history / their culture / their relationship, both historical and present, with the currently dominant ethnic or religious majority? Cheers, Mark

4. Is it asking a lot for people who are a minority in a country to always laugh good naturedly at things that mock them / their history / their culture / their relationship, both historical and present, with the currently dominant ethnic or religious majority? I can answer Number Four from personal experience. When I lived in Thailand, the shoe was on the other foot. I obviously stood out from the rest of the populace. The word for 'foreigner' in Thai is 'farang'. 'Farang' also means guava. In certain parts of the country where I travelled with (Thai) friends, it was something of a novelty to see someone with pale skin and blonde hair on their arms. 'Look at the foreigner! Look at the foreigner!': I got this a lot. While 'farang' isn't a *hugely* derogatory term, neither is it especially polite, and I was never called a 'farang' directly to my face (but referred to loudly within earshot). After awhile I would turn to whoever-it-was that had just called me 'farang', and say politely in Thai: 'Excuse me, I'm not a fruit. I'm a human,' which was inevitably followed by good-natured, slightly embarassed laughter from the culprit. Usually I'd get invited for a drink after this. I realise this is slightly different from other name-calling we're discussing, but it did get quite tiring always being referred to as an outsider, while I was trying very hard to integrate as much as was possible.

"4. Is it asking a lot for people who are a minority in a country to always laugh good naturedly at things that mock them / their history / their culture / their relationship, both historical and present, with the currently dominant ethnic or religious majority?" This is a very loaded question. Does the answer change if you take out the caveat of 'with the currently dominant ethnic or religious majority'? Is it OK for a minority to mock another minority? There are other dividing lines between groups of people which result in misunderstanding and stereptyping. Racial is just one of the more obvious ones. Isn't it double standards to expect people to behave in a different manner when the concern is specifically racial (or sexual) differences? If your concern, when dealing with racism, amounts to trying to destroy people's natural behavioral patterns, then you're bound for failure. I have to wonder as well - if alienation is rife, then does it really matter to someone that they're in the dominant ethnic/religious group? If someone feels like an outsider, or neglected, or that life has pitched them against the odds, how're they going to react to being told that they're actually one of the bullying majority?

Even if the comments are made in ignorance they are still racist comments. It's not that long ago that words like nigger were seen as acceptable. They're not seen like that anymore and for good reason. Hopefully, in time, the off the cuff comments made to describe any minority, not just race, will be seen in the same way. At least one good thing has come of this, people seem to be looking at their own views and asking themselves if they are in fact racist. It may lead to people thinking before they use such language. Craig

"This is a very loaded question." It's intentionally a loaded question. I am Caucasian and of anglo saxon decent. No matter who it is, a racial epithet relating to my heritage will have no effect on me, because any such insults hold no historical power. They don't have a history of violence, denigration or oppression related to them. In short, they do not have any power over me because they do not have a history of power. White racism is often based on the outdated idea of the white race as the zenith of development, with all obviously different people as less civilised, clever, developed etc. This, either wittingly or unwittingly, is deployed to emphasis what was once the power relationship between white Europeans and other racial groups. This is why Irish, Scots and Welsh people complain of racism, even when, to most bystanders they appear to be of the same racial group. They were groups who had, for one reason or another, english superiority imposed upon them. Racism and power, be it political, historic or in relation to resources are very closely related. Cheers, Mark

"I think that of all the sins one can perpetrate against one's fellow human being: rape, murder, torture, physical, emotional and mental brutality, neglect, indifference, and actual hatred of others, calling the local shop a Paki shop in jest is rather far down the list, Bukh. You might feel differently." I feel that in calling the local shop a Paki shop, you're almost as far as Jade Goody is from being Hitler. I wasn't comparing your casual racism to any form of violent crime, I was comparing it to another casual insult. If I call a woman a 'fat bitch' I know that I'm showing disrespect to that woman. I think casual use of racist insults is a bad thing. I wish people had enough pleasure in their lives from other sources to be able to get by without using racist insults as casual jokes.

Well, Bukh, if under your criteria I am a part of Miss Goody's crowd instead of being deeply interested in human equality, as I mistakenly thought I was, then so be it: I'm a racist. I don't take myself or the world as seriously as you, perhaps, but god, I do like to laugh, and can laugh just as easily at myself as at anyone else. Unlike some. Mark, your points about power are bang-on.

This is what I meant by the casual or not so casual use of the word nigger, 1964 and the man got elected. Sorry it's the Guardian again, it was the first one that came that came up. http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Story/0,2763,479653,00.html I don't think Buhk takes it too seriously, maybe other people don't take it seriously enough, that's not a pop at anyone by the way, but an observation. It may not be meant offensive but the words are offensive. I remember at uni, a couple of years ago, the magazine ran an article are you a Pikey along with a mocking little quiz. It was at the same time as another article was ran on the racial abuse at a Spanish football match. I marched into their student union office, maybe my description of the mag as extreme right-wing literature was a bit harsh, but I got my point across. In the weeks afterwards the editors etc who'd seen it as harmless fun approached me to tell me how they'd never thought of it like that and were deeply ashamed of themselves. When I was young and naive I saw nothing wrong with that type of terminology, then, as I mentioned on another thread, I saw nasty racism first hand and realised it all mattered. What would you say if accidently overheard by someone it offended, give them a wink and say 'no offence mate, just messing about'. To use any word in a derogatory term often means that sub-consciously you think less of that individual, you feel it's okay to mock them. Before this week I said the underclass, (by that I mean those below employment level for whatever reasons excluding the sick), weren't racist. They are, they just don't realise it. Craig

Oh and regarding Mark's comments on power etc. That is spot on and explains the fuss in India over the incident on Big Brother. Craig

"Well, Bukh, if under your criteria I am a part of Miss Goody's crowd instead of being deeply interested in human equality, as I mistakenly thought I was, then so be it: I'm a racist. I don't take myself or the world as seriously as you, perhaps, but god, I do like to laugh, and can laugh just as easily at myself as at anyone else. Unlike some." I like Jade and have no reason to suspect that she opposes human equality. Did she say that she does? Why is she worse than you? I'm glad you can laugh at yourself. I'm really good at it. In fact, I've been paid half-decent amounts of cash to perform a comic poetry routine almost entirely based on self-mockery. I don't finish it with "you've been a lovely audience, I'm off down the Paki shop" because I'm not a racist. I think this is important. Guilty as charged.

I don't finish it with "you've been a lovely audience, I'm off down the Paki shop" because I'm not a racist." How about if you said it in the guise of a character who was a deliberate send-up of the the type of person who WOULD say it and mean it? Al Murray, Alf Garnett, etc?

Self-mockery isn't the same thing as having a sense of humour about oneself, Bukh. The first implies a certain amount of intolerance for one's foibles and isn't actually that funny; the second is more accepting: everybody has some nasty habit or other. I'm no racist, but neither am I going to change my sense of humour simply because overweeningly sincere and eager to be right-on people feel I should. Should all the world end up that way, it would indeed render the human experience colourless and exceedingly boring.

I have a certain group of friends (men and women) I meet with occasionally, and we all respect one another as being fervently anti-racist and anti-sexist. When we're together, though, we often tell Irish jokes and sexist jokes (English jokes, too). In fact, one of the funniest jokes I know is a sexist joke told to me by a female member of this group (she's a feminist, to boot). None of us remotely believe the stereotypes in the jokes, and none of us would dream of saying them to someone likely either to be offended or to misunderstand our points of view. Sure... it may be sad that we can't get our laughs in some other way. But I do tend to agree with Archergirl on this. If someone tells me a deeply suspect joke which also happens to be very funny, and I find it very funny - am I a hypocrite, or am I demonstrating that I have a sense of humour broad enough to take in all taboos?

This is all very reminiscent of lectures from my parents when I was 12 about why certain swear words were fundamentally bad and can never be used inoffensively. "They don't have a history of violence, denigration or oppression related to them. In short, they do not have any power over me because they do not have a history of power." Nonsense. Any term, used in the right context, could have power over you. If you were walking down a street, and all the people around you starting murmurring 'Stilton' in your direction, you'd end up very intimidated. Most bullying arises from picking out an aspect of someone's appearance or character that is different, whether or not there is any history to it - could be your accent, your hair or your get-up. So if you lived in an area dominated by people of a different race, they could quite easily make 'honkey' or maybe 'corky' (y'know? Caucasian?) a painful word. Of course words have histories, and we need to be aware of them. That doesn't mean that 'nigger', used in any context whatsoever, betrays casual racism on the part of the speaker, or is needlessly offensive. Someone using a racist word in a joke, depending on what the joke is and who it is directed at, might as well be quoting from Huckleberry Finn. Now, true enough, if you're using that word in front of the people it was used to ostracise, you should be aware of the offence it may cause, but similarly, I would not say 'fuck' in front of my grandparents. Personally, I never use racist terms 'casually', but in the way you might pretend to steal someone's money from right under their nose - with a kind of no-doubt wearying 'Check out my brazen devilry' demeanour. And they're usually nested in an outrightly racist sentence, like, "I don't see why we don't just shoot all the nig-nogs," just in case people don't get that I'm taking the piss. They don't get slipped into conversations. But I can sympathise with people who do think of them as casual terms, and are baffled by the idea that they're being racist. Let's face it - if there are no words you yourself find particularly painful, it's difficult to understand how that's the case for others. "I wish people had enough pleasure in their lives from other sources to be able to get by without using racist insults as casual jokes." It's not a question of how much pleasure you get from other sources. Nothing is sacred. If you set something up as taboo, you're invited people to cross that line, and they will. It's like saying, "Don't look for meaning in this novel," or expecting prohibition to work. You might as well say, "I wish people didn't have to swear." Maybe the world *would* be fractionally nicer and more comfortable if your wish came true, but what a thing to waste a wish on. I think, generally, the ultra-liberal attitude to certain racist terms is the thing that instills power in them, rather than the 'history'. Mark's statement brings to mind the idea of a black guy having to walk round with his race's history hovering over his head, while white people around him know that only a single word will bring it crashing down on him. We should look forward to the time when these words carry no impact whatsoever - a far more realistic eventuality than a time when no one ever uses them at all. It'll happen when it's been so long since they were used as terms of abuse that no one thinks to use them that way anymore, and I think, to a degree, casual use of them is a step towards that, not away from it.