Tough Choice

Let me use a theory of mine. what if some other Andrea, a clone of you, decided to take your life, your experiences and your beliefs and your knowledge, your children and your family, to take your place wouldn't you fight back? the same thing is with countries. And I use a clone for example because each country thinks that has more rights than the other countries, because the identity of the country is based on the fights of old times of past generations. I want to make it more clear for you Andrea, so that you will get deep into the consciousness of nations. Would you make peace with your clone even she decided to share your life?

I didn't get the impression that all were desperate to die in Zardoz. The Connery character has to overcome stiff opposition and finally allow a band of murderous cut-throats - of which he was a member - into the land of the Eternals to accomplish his “cleansing“. Certainly many of the Eternals were dis-enchanted with the system and had been “aged“ as a penalty for “social vandalism“ but I think the majority were as content with their lot as we are with ours;-) I don't think that man, if any, were in a hurry to die in Highlander - they were just not skilful enough to beat their opponents. In my opinion the idea of living forever as a human was best dealt with by Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels where he meets the seventh son of a seventh son who cannot die and yet has all the ailments and physical and mental degeneration that comes with old age - and more. The Hindu’s see death as a part of the cycle of life - Shiva the destroyer ends life so that it can be reborn - allowing progress. Zen is a technique for gaining Enlightenment rather than a religion and those who practised Zen were sometimes know as “Zen Devils” even by Buddhists who invented the techniques in the first place. The importance of Zen is that it claims “direct transmition” without words and thereby avoids the pitfalls of language and other forms of communication (as outlined by Ludwig Josef Johann Wittgenstein). It is claimed that (Gautama) Buddha passed Enlightenment to one of His diciples by the action of twirling a flower in His fingers. Whatever you might think of Zen I do not really believe the word “crap” applies. Incidentally I have a book written by a Jesuit (Society Of Jesus) titled “Zen - Way to Enlightenment” in which Hugo Enomiya-Lassalle” explains the principles of Zen meditation and his belief that - practised in the right way - Zen can be of help to anyone regardless of their religion.

you might be right, Mykle - saw the film a long time ago. the way i remember it though, at the end, the 'immortals' were all running round shouting "kill me! kill me!" as Sean trooped through killing them all.

yeah sky no offence, but I don't think you quite got what Zen is about to call it crap. It's my fault for mixing Yin/yang philosophy with Zen. Think of Zen like this: living as fully as you can each in moment. Or being fully present in each moment. being in the here and now. there is a saying in Zen: ' Words are like a finger pointing to the moon.' The words aren't the moon, just showing you where it is. Like signposts, but they're not the thing itself. the yin/yang - unity of light/dark comes from TaiChi Ch'uan. TaiChi Chu'an translates as: The Yin Yang Fighting System. that's where I get my unity of the opposites philosophy from. There is a movement in Taichi Ch'uan called 'Embrace Tiger Return To Mountain.' The movement symbolises you embracing all the parts to yourself that you loathe/hate - all the darkness in yourself(the tiger) and taking it to the mountain. The mountain symbolises the spiritual meeting place where the two become one, when the two become one, then you are powerful, no longer divided in yourself, but whole. Becoming undivided means you can focus your intention into the here and now fully. Being divided within yourself, causes you to lose power, because you are being drained of vital energy, in the futile battle between good and evil. Instaed embrace your tiger and the tigers energy becomes yours as well. Then there is no conflict only unity. it's not zen, though it could be, depending on how you look at it. The thing with ideas is they depend a lot on how we percieve them as individuals. What means one thing to someone, can mean an entirely different thing to another. I look at the zen ox pictures and I think of man's nature symbolised by the ox. The young man goes in search of his true nature. Discovers the ox(the wild untamed nature of man), goes through the process of trieing to tame the ox(his nature) then when the ox is finally tamed he rides on it's back and takes it home. When he gets home, he discovers the ox is no longer there. Meaning the man and his nature are no longer two seperate entities, but have become one. Then in the next picture he dissapears and all that remains is the circle. Symbolising that he and the universe are now the same, no longer two seperate entities. He has returned to the source. By becoming one with his nature he has become one with everything. The universe and man, have never really been seperate entities, only man makes it so with his words and labels. Like we seperate those parts to ourselves with words and labels, yet they all form together to make a whole. In the final picture he goes back to the market place which symbolises the world. He is a master now, realising that the most important thing he can do is just to live in the moment, in the here and now. The grass grows by itself. http://www.zen-mtn.org/zmm/gallery3.htm http://www.iijnet.or.jp/iriz/irizhtml/zenart/10ox.htm

Apart from killing for food, Confrontation and physical conflict are a part of life. Very often it becomes symbolic, and animals (including humans) back off inflicting major damage if the other party defers. THis is good for everyone as being injured is not good for survival. Of course with the spread of characteristics, you get 'insanely' violent animals (including people). I would say that it is better to have a short sharp war that resolves a conflict than a peace-at-all-costs age of pain, skirmishing, mental pressure and unpleasantness. Problem comes that a physical attack can trigger resentment that starts a seething hatred, and so on. Similarly, a fair peace is better than any kind of war, if you can get there. In between the extremes, I don't know how to categorise the benefits/disbenefits. What is clear is, you'll never stop it. however, joining together into one bigger tribe (ie Europe) will cement relationships and reduce the possibility of conflict getting out of hand, as the parties have much greater desire to settle peacefully, and fear of injury (as above). JohnG

I think you're right about that Chant. I fairly sure it was because the crystal had been destroyed and so their "Paradise" was no more and they could not stand the thought of being "ordinary" mortals - something that I think had been planned by the "Wizard" who takes his name from the book (by L Frank Baum) which Connery's character can only see a portion of and hence the name of the film. Confused - you will be...

Liana, Andrea and John thanks for your replies. John, I agree with you. Your views are very thought-provoking. thanks for sharing!

maybe we were looking at it differently. i thought that they all wanted to die, but couldn't because the crystal kept regenerating them. when Connery destroyed the crystal, and they actually could die, then they were glad to, because their lives were so empty.

You are on the right track with your finger pointing to the moon but it's a bit more complicate than that Funky. Both the finger and the moon are reflections in your mind. Hence when you see a master point to a reflection of the moon in a pail of water and then slap the his disciple and point to the moon in the sky - he is trying to get the disciple to see beyond the model of reality which we all create in our minds. The problem is that both his finger and the moon are observed within the reflection and so it's like pointing in a dream - it's relative and not absolute - and points beyond...

IN YOUR OPINION FUNKY THERE SHOULD BE NO DIVISION BETWEEN BAD AND GOOD. THAT 'S IMMORAL DO YOU KNOW THAT? if you were a doctor would place a sick person along with a healthy? if you were a judge would you use the law and your self interest at the same time? if you were a parent would you abuse your child and then hug it without remorse? no! you wouldn't . you'll probably say, that the other side is not sick it's just the dark side that is our side etc.... is a virus more important than organism?

Taichi which means yin/yang originally comes from a school of Taoist thinking. Tai Chi Chu'an is a martial art which was developed later - it uses that way of thinking to create a fighting system. nowadays you get a lot of new age Taichi which is nothing to do with fighting, but just a kind of meditative dance. I personally feel that Tai Chi works better when you practise it as a martial art. New age movements can have a damaging effect on things I feel. New age Tai Chi is like just practising the Yin side to the art rejecting the Yang. The Yang is the fighting element. You need the yang side of Taichi to grow strong and keep your body fit. Develop strong bones like a tiger, become agile and focus your intention. To challenge you and learn where you are going wrong with your stances and form. Without it there is no real power and understanding in your movements. You don't learn the fighting element because you want to go out looking for a fight. And learning the fighting element doesn't make you a violent person. Taichi is balanced as an art, the Yin balances out the Yang, so that a practitioner is calm and fully present in the moment, full of the softness and gentleness of Yin within. But also the hardness and power of yang. A Taichi master will always look for ways to avoid a fight, will even run if it means avoiding combat. A taichi practitioner should be able to take all manner of personal insults, be called all manner of names, have a drink thrown in their face without reacting violently, but remaining calm. They only fight when it is necessary. To protect themselves or their friends and families. Deflecting with yin, soft overcoming hard, and striking with yang. The unity of light and dark, doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you a stronger person.

You see if someone was to attack you Sky - would you want to remain passive and let them attack you, upholding your virtues of good etc.? Or would you prefer to invoke the darker side to yourself in order to defend yourself from attack.

Hi Sky, Since you are fond of Plato what did he say was good - good and bad are relative terms. We keep nurses with the sick, we abuse children in the name of discipline and even the best judge uses the law in his own interest since he is a member of the society the laws are hopefullly serving. The greatest injustices are done when the letter of the law becomes more important than the spirit!

The limited mind is like flypaper, where ideas and opinions get caught hanging us up. The unified mind is more like a crystal through which all forms of light can pass unimpeded.

The following extract from Encarta should clear things up for all those that never managed to watch David Carradine in "Kung Fu" ;-) Although not mentioned in the extract - Chi is the word for "life force". During the 4th century BC, naturalism offered an analysis of the workings of the universe based upon certain cosmic principles used in the Yijing and other contemporary forms of divination. The most famous of these, the yin and yang system of the Tai Ji (T'ai Chi), represented the duality of nature, consisting of two interacting and mutually complementary aspects, exemplified in extremes such as female and male, passivity and activity, shadow and light, winter and summer. Also in the 4th century BC, dialecticians moved towards a system of logic by analysing the true meaning of words so as to avoid the logical pitfalls inherent in language. Later Mohists took this trend further, approaching the rigour of Classical Greek logic, but subsequent Chinese philosophy ignored or rejected their efforts. "Philosophy, Chinese," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

OH, MYKLE, HOW DEMAGOGIC YOUR WORDS ARE. SORRY FRIEND, we don't keep nurses with sick people, they do it themselves in the name of humanism in order to help fight the illness! those who abuse their children are not the ones that guide them by being strict and teach them self-discipline! they are those that never guide them simply abuse them and then play the role of mothers and fathers whereas they have destroyed their offspring. AND THEN you claim that a judge is using self interest since he is a member of the society the laws are hopefullly serving him as well! do you mean that a biologist that finds the cure for AIDS even though he is not infected is doing it because if he gets infected he will profit from his own invention!!! this is irrational... and about attacks, who said that I don't have the right to defend myself. My life is a human life and I'll be defending something noble. But I would try not to kill my enemy. Wound yes, kill no.

which is more limited the one that searches the Truth or the one that is learning theories?

Plato said that truth is one OBJECTIVE meaning that is not subject to personal experiences and ideas. there are many ways to conceive ideas and interprete them, you are doing it right now!

Just remembered a cool film I had forgetten about. It was called ' Dark Crystal' Was a really good film man, the characters where all puppets. There were these two different groups of ancient beings, one of them was good and the other was evil. In the film one of the good creatures was killed and when he died one of the evil creatures died as well, because they were the same person. The good creatures were intent on becoming unified with the evil creatures. But the evil creatures didn't want to become one with the good and tried to stop the good creatures from reaching them. In the end the good creatures found the evil creatures and the two groups of beings became one, and in becoming one, became these superpowerful beings, which were like Gods. *** in the bible in Genesis 3 v.22: ' Then the Lord God said, " Now man has become like one of us and has knowledge of what is good and evil. he must not be allowed to take the fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever." To me that can only mean one thing, that God is both good and evil. Maybe these two opposing energies need to be used with a mature mind, a mind that is wise and knows how to use them correctly, when used correctly they become the tools of creativity. and through their unity all things are made.

We are just getting bogged down in semantics Sky. Which is why Zen mostly ignores words, except for Koans, and searches for the truth directly. Perhaps all roads lead to Rome but some are direct and others meander. I'll tak' the "high" road and you tak' which ever road you like. Yoga suggests that the road you choose should be the one that suits you best and therefore offers a range from Hatha thru to Rajah. Christianty offers a smaller choice but then it relies much more on dogma - and some would argue that dogma can only obscure the truth - in the end a lot depends on how you were brain washed in the first place ;-)

aimlessly brainwashed serves the purposes of somebody.

I think you are getting carried away Funky. I'm sure that it's more about - after having eaten the "fruit" man was no longer a "slave" but had to think for himself: he had chosen to choose. I have often wished to find someone good and wise enough to take away the tyranny of choice - some Lord or King that I could blindly follow in the sure and certain knowlege that He knew best - to return to the bliss of Paradise before the fools destroyed it with their greed and hubris.

I vote for a Dictatorship. Failing that, a military democracy.

:o))))))))))))

Firstly this topic is great, havent seen a serious one like this for a while. Secondly in answer to the ORIGINAL post, always follow the truth, even if it does lead to war. Thirdly with that Jesus thing, he must have a some kind of darkside or he wouldnt have smashed up the market stall in the temple even if it was 'wrong'. (Bear in mind he doesnt exist (as a son of God I mean (cos theres no such thing as God( oo, pretty brackets)))). I say that all Humans are Evil (again) and if there was a Hell we would probably all live there... it would make sense if this world was hell then wouldnt it... anyway blah blah something surreal.

Go on give yourself to the darkside..

are you serious?

hope faith and love. I have them where I am, do you want me to go somewhere that these are lost? Logic is the only way to make the right choice and I choose the force that evolves me to something better, that gives strength to move on and that perpetuates life. I don't gamble my soul funky.

It sounds like an extract from "star Wars" Funky. "Give yourself to the darkside young Sky Walker." sorry Sky Dolphin;-) "Only then can you realise your true potential." As you have stated earlier Funky - before you could even contemplate a "union" there is many years of rigorous training meditation and dedication.

Ahh! The law of the Anfield boot-room Eddie....

You do not know the power of the darkside..

I would vote for aristocracy. But not the kind of aristocracy that the average person is aware of. I mean the one Socrates best described as the reign of those that are 1.Highly educated and open-minded 2.Gentle 3.Rich (so as they won't be corrapted by the wealth of bribery) 4.Patriots (not ethnicists that would only bring problems to other nations and not docile to other nations interests that try to inflict upon their country their imperialistic tendencies - a fair leader is the one that respects the other countries and protects his own) 5.Pure-hearted 6.Ethical-Moral -these are the basis for a true Aristocrat. These people will have these aims 1.To bring peace and all of peace's advantages to their people without the cost of war, but if necessary to make a war only for truly necessary reasons and without using the power of violence upon other countries. 2.To accentuate the necessity of high education to the public and focus on Education and Sciences thus make the citizens discerning, discriminating, perceptive, perspicacious and proud of their country and themselves. 3.To take care of the Health System 4.To pass on tradition as well as innovations to the next generations. 5.Finally, to aim at Democracy because IF Democracy is based on citizens that are all Aristocrats then the perfect balance between Citizen and Nation will bring peace within the country and outside the boundaries as well. sorry for any bad english. with respect

'Return to the Bliss of Paradise' Mykle, I despair for you. You are in line for a serious disapointment sometime.. ie if you are lucky and wake up.

:o) thanks for your reply CMEast. You believe that people are evil, are there any people you heard of whose actions were good? What do you have to say about a person that risked his/her life to save somebody? What do you have to say about the doctors that fight against illnesses and starvation of the populace of the third world? What do you have to say for those that phoned from the burning twin towers to their people just to tell them they loved them? What do you have to say for those that donate their kidney to save their relative?

when I was an infant I thought like an infant etc.... I clearly declare something new, when I was human I thought like a human, when Ill be god I'll think like a god. God created gods, one of them is what we for now know as human beings. get caught thinking. - ======================================= thanks for the discussion, with respect

Give yourself to the darkside young Skydolphin... it is your destiny.

Aristotle would disagree that anger was a manifestation of the dark side of human nature. in the Nichomachean Ethics, he suggests that anger is a legitimate emotion for the good man to feel, provided that he feels it to the correct degree and at the correct time. thus it is okay to feel angry if your parents are being tortured, provided that you feel it to the correct degree. moreover, someone who did not feel angry would be neither human nor good. on that argument, Christ's anger in the temple would be an example of this legitimate anger that the good man is allowed to feel and express, just so long as it is felt and expressed to the correct degree which, presumably with Christ it was.

Ah Sky, that's wonderful... But I fear you have neglected to take into account the perversity of human nature...

Oh ye of little faith - 1leg ;-))) Paradise is a state of mind and reality is what you believe! Don't tell me you are a believer in the 11th dimension where things smash into each other and cause "Big Bangs" - surely even God and Paradise is a far more reasonable explanation than science's latest creation myth?

think about really, think of the possibility that you have created a machine that helps people cure their sicknesses, it's a great machine and it is for free. you leave this machine to doctors, THAT INSTEAD of using it to cure the patients they CREATE another one, that is a substitute, a seemingly alike copy of it, and use it, hiding the real one from the public. And they don't do just that, they charge a fee for using the fake machine! the PEOPLE sooner or later they will understand that no good is done with the fake machine, or they will see that the doctors are using it for their profit. Either they'll lose their faith to the machine and the doctors or to the creator of the machine. ........... more to come

more to follow! ;o) sorry about the mistake......

soz sky, was jus messing with you man.. not really bad, and I'am not trieing to tempt you to the darkside. Was just a childish analogy from the film 'StarWars' I just write stuff sometimes to wind people up. And I always do it tongue-in-cheek. But realised I probably took that one a bit too far. I experiment a lot with ideas and religions and try to meld them all together, and make it sound plausible, I do it all the time, with everything, I try and look at things from lots of different angles. Am always deconstructing the bible. I don't really believe any of it. Is just interesting how many different ways you can look at something, anything in life. It's all a mystery really. I don't know what the truth is. What the universe is about, or what political system would be the best to serve us. Human nature is human nature I guess. We are what we are. I find it funny that in the Buddhist - 'Four Noble Truths' that the first noble truth states: 1. Life is difficult.

well those doctors they have been going around wearing badges with your name, declaring they serve your noble cause, saying when the machine is not helping the sick people that THEY are not as good as they should be for YOUR machine......... you return one day, to see that the sick are still sick, the machine is not used and that their pockets are full of money.... to be continued

you also see that YOUR name is not respected YOU are not loved but hated, THEY are trying to calm you down not to spoil their business, THEY mar your reputation with lies about you, and YOU still want to use the machine but they don't give it back to you, they refuse to stop using the fake, and they TRY to turn people against you saying THIS is not the REAL inventor of the *fake* machine !

sounds like paradise doesnt it...

don't be deceived, Sky. he's just bluffing in that last post. on Funky's side of the screen there's a man in a black mask, who breathes like an air-conditioning unit coming on!

* lifts a dark gloved hand * hoooopaaaa.. you have failed me for the last time admiral... hooooopaaaaa...

they kept saying when the sick people were not being cured that we are not the one that made it in the first place and once he returns, the machine will work fine using its full capacity. You decide to tell people about everything, built a new machine that will be more simple to use, that way people wouldn't need to search for doctors and instructions. What will they do? There will be those that will believe you, there will be those that will destroy you. There will be doctors that were nice people and now that learned the truth they will follow your example, BUT you have to die, for your cause, because the only way to make a more superior machine is this way.

That's the problem L...

so, basically, what you're saying, in a nutshell, is that things are pretty s.h.i.t in Greece. is that right, Sky?