smacking children

the sad fact is, as i have said before on a similar thread.. smacking, 9 times out of 10, is carried out simply because the parent is at the end of his or her tether. (which of course nobody will ever admit because lashing out in fury doesnt look too good does it?) As for that 1 per cent that do it to instill discipline and/or good behaviour into their children... that freaks me out even more. What kind of parent can smack their child calmly and rationally, in a planned system of education?

Karl appreciate your honesty and comments, but... When embarked on your life of violence no amount of reasoning would have quelled you.. why? Because you did not care. However, I vouch that the surety of greater violence to your person would have caused you to pause at least.. if you are honest with yourself and with us. I say you did not take liberties with some of those gangsters you have often referred to because you feared the greater violent consequences.. why again? Because that is the emotional language of violence.. that is what violence perpatrators understand.. You have to choose the appropriate tools to deal with the problem at hand.. That is the crux of my about turn argument.. Violence exists in our society.. and always will. Some selfish people choose it as a valid means of achieving their aims.. they do not care about consequences.. How to minimise it? I say categorically that corporal punishment (six of the worst) is the correct response for some 13 year old that mugs and beats up an old lady to a pulp.. I say that controlled violence gives him/her an emotional glimpse of identification with his victim that no other punishment and remonstration could.. I say he/she is more unlikely to repeat that act if he/she has tasted humiliationwise the consequences of his/her pain inflicting actions.. I say the experience gives him/her an emotional window from which to move on.. I say scientific experiments with rats bears this out.. I say empirical evidence from societies that practice this sort of punishment bears this out(some admittedly too far, but this does not invalidate the point).. I say common sense bears this out.. Your arguments all center around that violence is always wrong.. Yet that is blatantly not true in our world today, as I am sure as an adult you would sanction violence under certain conditions.. To protect our childrens innocence is a joke IMO.. how do you explain all the bad news re-violence on TV.. No wonder they grow up in a perpetual confusion and become cynical and depressed when all these half formed expectations and idealogies heaped on them on their formative years turn out to be false.. I say that as they grow up we should equip them at the appropriate times with tools, ways of thinking and emotional strengths to deal not with complexity and diversity of the real world not try and coccoon them and pretend whole swathes of human nature does not exist and there are no ramifications for certain choices.. I say lets not be hypocritical with our children.. sure we can tell them that to initiate violence is always wrong.. But also to indicate to them in no uncertain terms (and here smacking is the right learning tool) that if they are violent, behave recklessly so as to endanger others they will be punished in the same vein.. As a good parent I would argue that it is more courageous, more responsible to under very controlled conditions administer a smack to your child rather than not teach them these important emotional lessons.. Karl, as you have chosen to describe your transition from a violent person to one who detests and tries to avoid violence.. I wish if you would indulge us in a further bout of honest reflection and try and identify the single most influential event that made you change.. I know that it may have been gradual.. but can you pick out one single occasion that stands out nevertheless.. I think there may be a real learning experience for us here,

Nemesis: my bodyguard, sadly, isn't a Christian but he is looking forward to meeting you ;o) It occured to me that turning the other cheek must be to ensure an even tanning :)

I don't mind I will smack both cheeks and the bit in the middle that makes the awful noise. I don't have a problem with violence. It comes naturally to me.

<<>> Who is saying that these emotional lessons are not being taught? Or are you placing supposition and assumption on us again? As a good parent I would argue that it is more responsible, not to hit your children at all, but to remove them from danger whilst they are too young to discuss it, and then discuss it like reasonable people when they are able. As a good parent I would also argue that wielding power over your children is both patronising (not giving any validation to their feelings / point of view) and cruel - using superior strength and power can never be viewed as reasonable. As a Good Parent I can see no possible situation when I would use any amount of violence - emotional or physical on my children. I live with my children, I deal with them daily, alone, with no one elses opinion. If i can do it, and raise children with impeccable manners behaviour and streetwise savvy ways, then so can anyone. Of course i only assume i am a good parent from the way other people praise my kids. I must be doing it right.

Quite entertaining, Nemesis. Time for bed now though - before mummy spanks you ;o)

Your retorts are amazingly witty and erudite Mykle! Did you go to Oxford by any chance?

I'd like to know where you get your percentages from Liana! I think that the decision to smack a child should be a last resort and only carried out when the smacker is calm and rational - at least before the smacking. Smacking can be more painful for the person doing it than for the child getting smacked - both physically and emotionally - and should not be done lightly, or as merely a release mechanism. I agree with 1leg that smacking should be done in the child's own interests to deter it from behaviour that would or could be dangerous and where other forms of discipline have failed. I'm sure that "spare the rod" refers to discipline not beating.

um.. i cant recall mykle, but will try to find out.. some psych. that i did way back i would imagine. so you are another of those scary people that can smack a child when calm and rational? I think that if smacking is done out of frustration it is more understandable.. though of course just as bad...

i am loathe to admit that i have smacked my children ... as liana says ... end of tether time ... terrible maniac toddler plus not coping young mother equals bad situation not handled well ... not often mind ... and felt bad about it ... i never smacked coldly and rationally as described above and it makes me feel quite ill to think about it ... what made the difference to me was when someone pointed out that i would never bite my children ... which is a similar thing ... causing them physical pain as punishment for bad behaviour ... and i havent smacked any of them since ... tho i rage in a JT's ma style quite often ...

I'm surprised you guessed, Nemesis - I always try to diguise it and I thought I did a fairly good job of it ;o) You're obviously a fairly intelligent child!

Liana, I am not making assumptions about any parents on this thread.. I was referring to myself as always in these type of debates.. my definition of good parenting and something I try to live up to.. not easy. Would you justify violence under any circumstances in everyday life? What about the example of the 13 year old I gave above, what would you do for a repeat offender? Come on.. tackle this directly.. Some emotional experiences cannot be taught they have to be experienced. can you describe what it is like to be in love to someone who has not experienced it? Can you explain to someone, the fear, pain and humiliation that a victim of violence feels.. No. Sometimes perpatrators need to learn the hard way.. can make them better persons IMO.

Liana, anyone would think we were talking about nailing kids upside down on the living room door. Yes I am "another of those scary people that can smack a child when calm and rational." The schools used to be full of such loathsome people they were called teachers. Now I expect they are called lecturers and we know exactly how much the Educational system has improved since the demise of corporal punishment! By the way nine out of ten is ninety percent, Liana, so what frame of mind are the other nine per cent that are smacking their children (subtracting the one per cent that are scary like me)? ;o)))

Ok fine spider... i'll tackle that directly. I'll tell you something - and this is an assumption, i readily admit - i betcha that the parents of those 13 year old beat them on a regular basis... theyre the kids that get smacked every day of their lives to be "taught a lesson"... ....evidently it works then.

oh and i was only smacked twice when i was a child ... and i have never ever hit anyone (other than smacking kids as i said above) ... my oldest son is a big sixteen year old and i was talking to him about violence the other day as his mate had been suspended from school for a minor fist fight... he told me he never uses violence himself not even on the rugby pitch and yet he is considered to be "hard" ... all that is quite difficult to understand ... as he certainly used to whack his little brother when he was younger ... the middle one is a total hippy pacifist ... neither of them have either come home having been physically bullied at school ... now i come to think of it ... but they are both big people and i wonder if that has something to do with it ... i didn't get bullied at school as i had a big hard scary notorious brother (who didn't use violence either) ... now the more i think about the cold calculated so called rational physical punishment of children the more sick i feel ...

spider the basis of your argument seems to be thats its ok to smack kids to teach them what it feels like to be a victim of violent behaviour ... so they can understand what it is like ... understand the victims viewpoint ... in the first place this argument so far has not been about violence as a payback for violence ... at no point has anyone said smacking was ok as a punishment for an act of violence done BY the child ... secondly your eye for an eye argument could be extended to ludicrous degrees ... do you take the young arsonist and torch his or her house? do you steal from the young thief? do you wait til the young joyrider has grown up and bought a car and then rip it off? where does this thinking end?

Mykle.... we have argued about this before - we didnt agree then, and we arent about to agree now. you think violence against kids is a good idea - i dont. end of story.

Please Liana, the argument is beneath you.. More likely the child was a result of parents who through laziness, confusion, selfishness, ignorance etc never bothered to discipline their children appropriately until it was perhaps too late (they became uncrontrollable).. and perhaps then tried to do so incorrectly and ineffectually.. But despite both these scenarios, I betcha, because this is the real world, and allowing for diversity of humans there are those who will still grow up to choose violence as a means of achieving their ends.. Do you think that abortion is violence perpetrated against children? (I do) Come on tackle these questions directly..

Fish - you really think that it's better to be smacked by someone at the "end of their tether" than by a calm adult who explains why and controls the force of their blows? Perhaps if you had learned some emotional control via, say, Yoga then you could have either avoided smacking altogether or done it in a more controlled way - which depended less on your mood and more on the need for discipline. I was usually asked to do the smacking by my partner - a sort of “wait till your father gets home” situation. It was very rare and never without serious consideration and always upsetting. Having said all that - there are numerous one parent families around me, most with an average of two youngsters per household, and I have to admit I really do not know how the mothers cope. I’m sure it’s much easier being a father than a mother - especially when the mother has to, somehow, cope on her own!

phewww! what a debate, just got a peed of the other day hearing about some one talking about smacking being alright, so i thought i would post the thread, i have no kids myself, i was smacked like most of us when being a bad kid but this made me rebel more, thankfully after many years out in the wilderness i found myself, there are plenty of for's and against's here.. interesting...

* has three kids, is a single mother and still doesnt smack*

Liana - as a writer you seem to be sadly prone to mis-using words. Fish is the one that has used violence i.e. the abusive or unjust use of physical force. My whole point is that smacking should be used as a disciplinary measure when other forms of discipline have failed and yet a deterrent is important - for the child's sake as much as your own. Smacking children because you have lost control sounds much more scary to me and does justify the term violence. Justyn's discription of his mother's screaming sounds more painful than any smack I could ever deliver!

the only alternative to smacking is NOT smacking i don't know why you are all arguing about it

Glad to hear you've given up the smack, Liana ;o) Cigarettes next?

We were all bored on Thursday afternoon, Freda, and it passed the time. Lucky you weren't around with your insightful logic or we would have had to find a new topic.

yes mykle i do happen to think it is worse for both parties if the smacking is done in a controlled way as you describe ... for me it is understandable that someone might reach the end of their tether and lose control a bit ... what freaks me out completely is the idea that a kid has to wait for the father to come home and then the father is expected to mete out the punishment when he wasnt even there to witness the crime and has no emotional investment in the situation ... its HORRIBLE ... i am trying to relate it to something else in order to explain it ... if i were to see one of my kids in a temper, frustrated and lashing out i could understand where that lashing out comes from ... it makes sense ... if i saw one of my kids walk calmly up to someone and use physical violence on them without any apparent emotion behind it i would be horribly shocked ... the calm and control you advocate holds a scary message as i see it ... it is the use of power ... and it is abusive of that power over a smaller less powerful person ... and here i am not saying that the end of the tether smack is acceptable or a good thing ... i am trying to explain how wrong it feels to me to mete out punishment in the way you describe ... it is honestly making me feel ill even thinking about it ...

<> And you say you are not patronising. *rests case* Please stop ordering me to answer your questions directly, when they are simply not part of the debate. Abortion has NOTHING to do with it.

But Fish.. that is what I HAVE always been saying.. that whilst thoroughly unpleasant.. I can imagine scenarios where smacking and carrying that on to corporal punishment may be the appropriate response to certain misdemeanors/crimes.. and it is a useful debate to have.. I am not in favour of these 'never' and 'always' polarised type of debates.. Clearly they are nonsensical in our real world.. ..much harder and what every parent faces every day is 'what is the appropriate response' given a certain situation.. since we sanction controlled violence in adulthood then we should not rule it out when those adults are children.. That is the real responsibility of parents in trying to bring up our children to make 'good' choices and capable of dealing with (rather than shirking from) difficult situations.. I cant think of a better way than explaining to them that one always has choices and that the likely consequences of taking some inappropriate ones.. just as we do in our adult lives.. I have also suggested that as a guardian and figure of authority in the home, in some cases smacking may be the only direct way of imparting a hard emotional empathy lesson.. why should a child not be nasty to another one if by doing so he clearly benefits on his terms (sweets)? What if he does not want to be 'good'.. I hope I don't have to smack by kids.. but if the situation calls for it.. I hope I am courageous enough to do so. Damn.. I was hoping you girls would somehow convince me otherwise!

*rolls eyes*

I've read and re-read this thread .... and still I haven't changed my mind ..... for one reason I love my kids and would fight the devil himself ..... using violence in the extreme .... and I'd like to know just how many of you would feel the same way..... then explain to your child why you'd use violence? One more thing not one of you have brought out the damage that can be done to a child's mind by the vocal diatribe some kids get put through by parents, who terrify and create myths in the minds of their kids and yet you cannot see the harm that this can cause or store for a later date .... I talk of one nasty one I heard the other day "if you don't behave I'll put you in a home" ..... now if smacking can cause damage what can that do what about blackmail .... I wonder how many of you have used that one and not taken into account the out come Further more one that came up recently at a local resident's meeting ..... the subject was anti social behaviour of children one parent came out with..... " I can't make my child do what I want anymore because I can't tell him off as he treatens to report me to social services for abuse " ... the child in question is six years old and out of control he ... his latest was climb onto the roof of one his neighbours sheds and throw milk bottle's at the resident ... how would you deal with this and what punishment would you give .... smacking is not a option ..... nor is talking to the child ..... seem as you have the answer's I thought I'd ask I don't believe it makes much difference what form of punsihment you use it will be wrong in someone eyes .... but I would rather believe that if you chose to smack thats it done not in temper but with reason and only as a last resort I am not a perfect parent thank god ..... but my kids have grown up fairly happy .... my daughter scolds me before entering some shops where I have to behave and not play with the toys ..... she never smacks me .... and I just stand there and take like an adult should ... Although someone did think I had learning difficulties the other day and offered to look after me whilst my daughter went to the loo .... wasn't exactly sure how to take that one ..... I don't know who laughed the most me or her ...

<> have already posted that pioden.

I propose a real ale toast to stephen_d for starting off such an entertaining thread dot not you Lewis dot dot dot dot you are supposed to be in wales arresting people dot

mykle....please dont start resorting to personal insults again.... Oh, and Bravo Fish.. beautifully said. Its the calm deliverance of a slap that perturbs me too. Wish I was as clever as Fish with words.. *sigh* x

glad to hear that so what do you do to tell them off ... what have you used to correct bad behaviour ... I'm sure we'd all be much inspired by your capable advise ... even those of us who have for all these years ... my eldest is 22 ..... is a raving lunitic who goes around battering old ladies for the ice creams (Lie) ..... got it wrong

I went there sir but the place was empty.

Fish - I can't say I'm overly fond of the Judicial system either, but surely it's the lesser of two evils? Would you want your judge to be at the end of his/her tether or calm and collected? Should the punishment fit the crime or be dependant on the emotional whim of a stressed parent? To be honest on the rare occasions I felt is was necessary I did feel sickly afterward, but then, as I said, it is not meant to be pleasant for either party! The problem is that you are employing the same overly emotional attitude to thinking about smacking as you did to doing it! You seem to think it is better for children to learn that justice is based on the emotional state of the parent rather than on the severity of the crime. Punishment should be based on a fairly rigid system so that the child can find the boundaries and know when it is crossing them. There are often mitigating circumstances which have to be taken into account and these should be taken into account before the form of punishment is decided. Smacking is difficult and often painful to both parties but it is sometimes necessary to be cruel to be kind!

dont be silly pioden...

Liana - Sorry which bit did you consider to be a personal insult? I have not meant to insult anyone and I realise that in the end we are all trying to be the best parents that we can be - to be bothered to argue shows that we care enough to test our beliefs.

Ok.. apologies Liana.. if you wish me to respond directly to your following argument, I will: < I'll tell you something - and this is an assumption, i readily admit - i betcha that the parents of those 13 year old beat them on a regular basis... theyre the kids that get smacked every day of their lives to be "taught a lesson"... > How many persons on this thread have admitted to being regularly smacked (me too) as kids, some even virging on being abused... Have they then gone on to smack/abuse their kids on a regular basis? Have they gone on to commit violent crimes?

i am not advocating smacking as "justice" at all mykle ... smacking isnt JUST ... it is the abuse of physical power by a parent ... it is violent and wrong ... i dont agree with getting control of a child via the use of pain whether it is meted emotionally or coldly ... you have entirely misunderstood my argument ... justice is a different thing altogether ... if my kids transgress their clear boundaries then there is a penalty to be paid ... they know when they have done something wrong because their boundaries are clear and they know them well ... to make an analogy between a big parent whacking a small kid and the judicial system of this country is ludicrous and you know it

not being silly Liana .... why cannot you advise us .... is it because like all of us you don't have the hard and fast answer As 1leg said many people have been smacked as kids and not turned to violence later on ..... could you explain why this is ?

unless of course you are happy for judges to leap down in their wigs with a cat o nine tails and dish out a nice violent (tho of course calm rational and controlled) punishment there and then in the courtroom ...

what? no black sheep Lewis? jesus! fetch me a pint of awld fashonval ewes whilst I use the dog to phone my welch -Ray Cistval Ewes

of COURSE i dont have a hard and fast answer.... never said i did. now. in words of two syllables or less: i do not smack my kids, because i do not think that it is the right way to teach them. *hand me a gun someone, i think i am turning to violence after all....*

My word, I thought this thread was dead for a bit, but since it's live and kicking, I thought I'd add my two bobs' worth. Now, only being 24, and not having kids, you may wonder what the hell I know about any of this, and the simple answer is, not a lot - not from a parent's perspective anyway. However, I was a complete b*stard as a kid, total tearaway, to the extent where I was always left standing outside the headmistress' office at dinner and playtime, eventually caned, and finally nearly thrown out of my primary school. Luckily for me there were a couple of teachers who thought I had a brain in my horrid little head and so looked at the problem a bit closer. They thought that the reason I was such a git was that when me and some of the kids in my class got together, we nigh on tore up the place. So, they thought, separate the wrong-doers and they won't do any wrong. Instead of chucking me out of the school (or caning me again - I think it'd been banned by this point) they moved me into the other class. The transition wasn't totally smooth, but there were less so-called troublemakers in the new class and eventually we all got on marvellously. I started the year at the front of the class (right under the teacher's nose) and ended up by the door, a place of trust, to ultimately become the soppy arty type that I am today, only really getting into trouble in high school because I had a foul mouth at all the wrong moments. The point is that corporal punishment was not needed to turn me from an absolute bugger to a (hopefully) quite normal person. As for smacking your own kids, as far as I'm concerned that's up to the discretion of the parents. I don't remember being smacked by my parents, although I wouldn't hold it against them if they did. I am hoping never to hit my own kids though. It's not that I find the thought horrifying, I just don't see it as necessary. After putting my best mate in hospital after putting a hammer across his head and leaving my sister unconcious with the aid of a cricket bat, I don't know how I would have dealt with me, but I don't think being smacked would have made much difference. The best remedy ever to keep me quiet was used by my dad (much to the disdain of my mum now she knows about it) when I had an unbelievable ear-ache one night and couldn't sleep. My dad put some disprin in a bit of whisky and gave it to me to drink. Safe to say, he had a peaceful evening, and so did I.

I agree with you Fish... your form of smacking is not a form justice - I made that point earlier. If you hit your children because you have lost control then it is probably a violent attack on a bewildered child. Do I take it that you have had a change of heart now that your children are big enough to fight back or have you just grown out of the need to hit them? I don't see why the analogy of society punishing it’s citizens and parents disciplining their children is so ludicrous to you Fish. Surely in both cases punishment is being meted out in an effort to maintain discipline and curb illegal, anti-social or undesirable behaviour? I think your analogy of Judge Dredd meting out justice with the cat-o-nine-tail is hilarious ;o)

I've been reading this debate with some interest - and a lot of incomprehension. First, just like Liana and Fish, I will admit to having smacked my kids (4 of them God help us - my "Collected Works" as I call them). Yes I have smacked them, yes in anger, yes at the end of my tether, and yes, just once in a blue moon have I done it for "discipline" whatever that might mean. But I have to say that both Liana and Fish are absolutely right - violence can never be controlled, especially when family dynamics and emotions are involved. You always lose control, you always act with a level of irrationality - because your emotions are powered by anger and fear and a feeling of needing to be in control. It is hard to be a parent, hard even when there are two of you. It is more difficult still when the sole responsibility lies on one parent. Liana is right, though. Acting for someone, loving a child, being there for them does not of necessity, nor even of contingency imply the imperialism of power which Mykle suggests. And of course, when an adult smacks, he is not a precise machine, but a human, with faults, sexuality and motives. No smack can be delivered in a truly controlled way, because, like our natures, we do not "work" in a smooth, contolled fashion throughout our lives. We are inconsistent. We vary in inner temperament. We are not robots. Mykle seems to idealize a model parent as some sort of Parent Hero. But this heroism is perverse: Mykle sees a good parent as someone willing to force physical pain and possible injury upon a child. Mykle believes that this Parent Hero is capable of committing an act of violence against a child in a "rational, calm and measured frame of mind". No adult prepared to commit violence against a child of any kind is acting in a rational, calm and measured manner. To say they do is to be false, to present falsehoods as "social facts", and to tout violence and intimidation as desirable goals for aspiring parents. No Mykle. No. No.

mykle if you bothered to read and understand my points ... or if indeed you were capable of doing so you would realise how ridiculous and petty your posting above is ... i enjoy a debate but i am afraid if the other party is incapable of processing and understanding my argument there is very little point ... you will continue to see physical violence against children as just ... and also i suspect continue to fail to see anyone else's point of view ...

save your breath peter ... in Mykle World there is no reason ...

He's here to save The Children of the World, wearing his pants on the outside, his Belt of Discipline and carrying the Cross of Justice..... iiiiiiiiiiiits Slappy Man!!