Has this idea been done already?

Well this is a novel thread isn't it Colin? By the way, does Alison know you've been using her triple dots?

Stormy, are you really saying that in the totatility of time to come 10, 20, 100, 1000 years from now there are no new stories to be told.. with the accelarating pace of culture and technology evident even in our lifetimes?? Think back to what the world seemed to have been like a 100 years ago.. prior to human flight, womens voting, empires, the world wars etc both cultural and technology wise.. are you saying there has been no new stories in the intervening period.. Clearly we define stories differently.. There are stories which only make sense now in the internet age.. and the internet as we recognise it is barely 10 years old.. Yes, it is true most stories that are written are regurgitations of old ideas.. but is it also true that new ideas are emerging constantly in every facet of human culture.. Its like saying there is no new ideas expressed in art.. I disagree.

What about a story where robots are created but are dreadfully oppressed by evil humans and made to work in menial dehumanized McJobs with no prospects or satisfaction - in short, make the robots the good guys and the humans the evil folks. Also, you can pretend its satirical or an analogy for the Russian revolution or something. Every story has been done before - except a book I read called "The Monster Dogs" which was about alsations that could talk and tried to become a political force in America and they were either cunning, venal and evil or else kindly and wise and led to world peace, one or the other. It was quite a cool book.

No, that has been done before, Andrew. It was called Who's Afraid of the Virginian Wolf? - the doggy hero was JS Bach. There are a finite number of plot structures: the quest, boy-meets-girl-loses-girl-gets-girl-again, the whodunnit etc, but infinite amount of stories that can be woven around these plots.

Aha! I had a dream last night which would make a FANTASTIC film... I'm not daft enough to post the plot here though! I shall make my millions whist I sleep! And, it's a story that has NEVER been told before! ZZZzzzzzzz... KERCHING!

Thanks all, you are very encouraging, I'll write it then :) -pen

I've done a novel about the future of artificial intelligence which I think is just a shade different to what anybody else has done. If it isn't it won't get read, because science fiction is read mainly for the ideas behind the story, not the characters or the writing. Andrew Pack's idea where the robots are the good guys ensalaved by nasty humans is a pretty accurate plot summary of the film AI. For science fiction, in my opinion, you really must have a new angle. There are thousands of robot stories and tens of thousand of space travel stories and alien visitation stories. That does not mean there isn't room for another robot story or space travel story or alien visitation story, but it must have a genuinely new slant. My plot slant in "SIRAT" was that organic intelligence like us represents a step on the evolutionary ladder, nothing more, and the next (and superior) manifestation of consciousness is going to be electronic. It's the story of mankind's becoming superceded, the last days of the human era. To make your robot story work you need a strikingly unusual theme, or a possibility that nobody has thought of before. If you make your robots merely metal copies of human beings with much the same motivations and preoccupations it isn't going to do anything in the science fiction field.

sadly, being an old science fiction reader, your own 'new' plot slant is very familiar too. If I were to be more helpful, I would give you references, I know. and I'm sorry I can't off hand. My bookshelves spanning 50 years of Analog, F&SF etc are daunting, and I haven't the energy to search. If I remember, I'll tell you. As you say, the robots theme has been done and done. the plots repeat - good robots mistreated, robots rebel, last man on earth is robot, evil robots in our midst, mistaken robots overprotecting us and killing us, mistaken robots replacing organic bits of weak, frail humans and changing us, robots who people mistake for people. robots who think they are people. people who discover they are robots...... but I still read them. If every sci-fi story needed a genuinely 'new' major plot, 98+ p/c would never get read. I think the value to the reader lies in the attractiveness of the telling, and the small idea gems scattered around, even in a familiar plot. You also have the tease - which plot is this one going to be? you can make robots the same as humans in your story, using them to highlight human traits and weaknesses , to make your point. This also has beeen done many times. a bit like my thread -why do we read books more than once?

To be more helpful - I found an couple of articles. the more learned amongst you may know more. the first referred to Georges Polti, who in 1868 defined 36 plots (no more) . I also caught a reference to a creative writing course where it was claimed that there were only 8 basic stroylines. Of course, it all depends on the breadth of the definitions. i could start from 1. about people, 2. not about people I guess and start from there. Come to think of it- are there any fiction books 'not about people' (really - even if they appear as elves, bunnies, ants or whatever). must go, fish needs its water changing!

Of course, but I'm not sure if the business name "Mirage Busters" adequately expresses the concept behind the enterprise, which was, if I remember correctly, to assist those who were trying to "find themselves": i.e. lost soul and missing identity retrieval. A good advertising slogan might be "We know who you are" or "Don't allow your own absence to be an obstacle" (no, I think there's a firm who make telephone answering machines already using that one). Maybe we should try to offer help with other spiritual and philosophical crises also: "Existential angst, complete cure or your money back" "Feeling insignificant in the face of an infinite Universe? Contact us for an instant scale reduction! Satisfaction guaranteed or the past changed". Come to think of it our prospective business enterprise may have been started already by someone else. I think I have some spam from them in my intray folders, filed under "Penis Enlargement and Get Rich Quick Schemes"

I think I've got it. How about "Soul Searchers"?

I was thinking about this, the hard thing about writing about robots is the tension between :- if they are too 'other', then there will be no emotion in the book and no 'human interest' and if they are just written as metal humans, then what's the point of them being robots. I think it is a very hard thing to get right, and probably the only book that has anthromorphic characters that actually seem like what they're supposed to be and not just human-substitutes is Watership Down. If you write them as robots, they won't be very interesting to read about, because where are there desires, their drives, their weaknesses, their foibles, and if they are just humans in a tin suit, then why make them robots at all ? I would say, of almost any idea, write something - you'll know in ten pages whether it'll work or not, and you learn as much from a piece that dies on the page as you do from something that nearly writes itself. So write it, then review it with a critical eye. Try to separate the creative and critical process - write it first, polish it later.

*alerts fish to use of above word*

*squeaks twice and faints*

why did he call me Joseph? Is it my coat?

Joseph = Jozef Imrich who defined the origin of robot correctly.

penmagic, you came to visit me at thoughtcafe! Wish I'd known you were coming...would've prepared latte or a pot of tea...even baked a cake! sirat..yes, but.. the idea was find ourselves quite literally. *holds hand to forehead dramatically* we are but mirages on this vast imaginative website... what was that about enlargers?

Robot comes from the Slavic word 'robota' meaning work (connotation slave). Every old story and idea has a place providing we show something within our words that has never scared or delighted readers before. And that is hard robota, indeed.

Novel naturally comes from the Slavic word nove meaning new (plural smile)

shall we tell them what skoda means jozef? *smiles*

My favourite story idea is the pitch Homer Simpson gave to Ron Howard, which Ron then pitched to a top Hollywood executive. "It's about a killer robot driving instructor from the future who goes back in time for some reason." "I'll pass..." "His best friend is a talking pie." "Sold - Howard, you've done it again!"

'The man on the bridge' (story - Kyril Capek?????) was suposed to have introduced the 'robot' Of course, the first traffic lights in england were called 'robots'

the word semtex is czech too, named after the place it was invented in.. robot is indeed a czech word, meaning slavery, or sth similar ....forced labour..? ... jozef, help!

penmagic, no one seems to have mentioned a film which came immediately to mind for me, and that is Artificial Intelligence based on a Brian Aldiss story. It's a Steven Spielberg film that seemed to completely die here (in the states), but I saw it and found it both totally chilling and infinitely sad. Check it out, if you haven't already. I would agree with those who venture to say that there is always a story to tell, and the most interesting will be one written from a gut level -that is from your own unique perspective.

Well actually I mentionmed it, I said Andrew Pack's idea (nasty human's cruelly oppressing and exploiting robots) was almost an exact plot summary of AI. It was an interesting film, but floundered a bit in the second half, which was the point at which Spielberg took over from Kubrick as Director. The first part is far darker and much more thought-provoking than the second part which tries to give it all a happy ending and turn it into ET. The first part is more lie Blade Runer, another good android film, though not quite a robot film. I think the best film about artificial intelligence is still the Space Oddissy, even thirty years or more after it was made. The Terminator series also has some interesting ideas. I thought The Matrix was complete rubbish though, a Kung Fu film dressed up as science fiction. Of course the best AI film of all will be when they film my novel SIRAT...

Indeed you did sirat...this speed reading I get into....*grin* I didn't see the conclusion to AI as a happy ending though. The tragedy for me was that this robotic child was doomed to repetitively seek an experience programmed into his very being...even when that reality no longer existed. Guess I related that to the way severe abuse can affect any helpless child if he/she is unfortunate enough to be born into such a situation; this is a case of virtual hard wiring too. But the concept used in AI does closely parallel penmagic's idea. Don't know about SIRAT! Do you have it posted here?

The Russian verb 'to work' is rabotya (anglicised) a robot is a worker. German = 'arbeit' same root (rance). THat was what the man on the bridge was about. It is reputed to have originated the word robot. any intellectuals out there confirm this?

this took me 5 mins to find: Joseph is correct of course. [1.2] Where did the word 'robot' come from? The word 'robot' was coined by the Czech playwright Karel Capek (pronounced "chop'ek") from the Czech word for forced labor or serf. Capek was reportedly several times a candidate for the Nobel prize for his works and very influential and prolific as a writer and playwright. Mercifully, he died before the Gestapo got to him for his anti-Nazi sympathies in 1938. The use of the word Robot was introduced into his play R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots) which opened in Prague in January 1921. The play was an enormous success and productions soon opened throughout Europe and the US. R.U.R's theme, in part, was the dehumanization of man in a technological civilization. You may find it surprising that the robots were not mechanical in nature but were created through chemical means. In fact, in an essay written in 1935, Capek strongly fought that this idea was at all possible and, writing in the third person, said: "It is with horror, frankly, that he rejects all responsibility for the idea that metal contraptions could ever replace human beings, and that by means of wires they could awaken something like life, love, or rebellion. He would deem this dark prospect to be either an overestimation of machines, or a grave offence against life." [The Author of Robots Defends Himself - Karl Capek, Lidove noviny, June 9, 1935, translation: Bean Comrada] There is some evidence that the word robot was actually coined by Karl's brother Josef, a writer in his own right. In a short letter, Capek writes that he asked Josef what he should call the artifical workers in his new play. Karel suggests Labori, which he thinks too 'bookish' and his brother mutters "then call them Robots" and turns back to his work, and so from a curt response we have the word robot. R.U.R is found in most libraries. The most common English translation is that of P. Selver from the 1920's which is not completely faithful to the original. A more recent and accurate translation is in a collection of Capek's writings called Towards the Radical Center published by Catbird Press in North Haven, CT. tel: 203.230.2391 The term 'robotics' refers to the study and use of robots. The term was coined and first used by the Russian-born American scientist and writer Isaac Asimov (born Jan. 2, 1920, died Apr. 6, 1992). Asimov wrote prodigiously on a wide variety of subjects. He was best known for his many works of science fiction. The most famous include I Robot (1950), The Foundation Trilogy (1951-52), Foundation's Edge (1982), and The Gods Themselves (1972), which won both the Hugo and Nebula awards. The word 'robotics' was first used in Runaround, a short story published in 1942. I, Robot, a collection of several of these stories, was published in 1950. Asimov also proposed his three "Laws of Robotics", and he later added a 'zeroth law'. Law Zero: A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm. Law One: A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, unless this would violate a higher order law. Law Two: A robot must obey orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with a higher order law. Law Three: A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with a higher order law. An interesting article on this subject: Clarke, Roger, "Asimov's Laws for Robotics: Implications for Information Technology", Part 1 and Part 2, Computer, December 1993, pp. 53-61 and Computer, January 1994, pp.57-65. The article is an interesting discussion of his Laws and how they came to be in his books, and the implications for technology today and in the future.

Hello britgrrl. No, "SIRAT" isn't posted here, at a bit over 60,000 words I think it would raise a few eyebrows, but it's available as a free download at my home page, direct link: http://davegardiner.com/SIRAT.html Re the film AI, if you go to the original Brian Aldiss story "Supertoys Last All Summer Long", it's an even sadder story, based on the idea that human love is fickle and people quickly tire of their electronic pets and companions and are neither capable of nor worthy of the unconditional love that is hard wired into these electronic surrogates. The ending of AI (Spielberg's preferred ending) was completely silly, the idea that his human mother could be brought back from the dead but for one day only. It would have been a much better and more plausible ending if the benevolent robot society into which he awoke had simply created for him a VIRTUAL mother who would be created specially to fulfil his needs just as he had been created to fulfil hers. Nice symmetry in that. If you do get around to reading my own effort, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks.

Sirat, I'll take a look at SIRAT...but I don't promise an immmediate response...not with a work of that length!! Do know what you mean about that silly ending. And then he sinks into the Great Sleep too, after a few thousand years of surviving all else! Not a great fan of sci-fi for this reason, though I used to subscribe to the old Isaac Asimov's magazine. But the philosophical and psychological weaknesses of the stories really irritated me; the conclusions always seemed so juvenile. Leaving the technology aside. I'm still attempting to wade through indecipherable tomes of material on quantum mechanics, so you can figure that's not my forte!

I love the concepts of quantum mechanics: even the ones I can't understand. In fact them most of all. Can I recommend a very good down-to-earth summary of modern physics that I enjoyed a great deal? Have a look at Timothy Ferris' book "The Whole Shebang". It deals with the idea of parallel universes and "virtual" universes, time-reversal, reverse causality, superstrings,,, all the buzz words of far-out modern physics and cosmology, but it explains them in a really straightforward and entertaining way. It's a real scientific thriller. Written in 1997, probably a bit out of date by now, but no matter. (No matter? What am I saying? Of course there's matter!).

Sirat, we have to stop meeting this way! It's off to the library for me tomorrow to look for 'The Whole Shebang'. Thanks. I have several books on the subjects mentioned. Once wrote Alan Alda about my inability to grasp the principles, would you believe. He answered! (via e-mail) Recommended a comic book which I could never find! Got your e-mail. Congrats on your very excellent news! (You do realize I'm Shelagh O'Neil?????)

Damn! No, I thought Britgrrl was your real name! Short for "British Gorilla" or somesuch. No, sorry, very stupid of me, I hadn't made the connection. Thanks for the off-list e-mail and for the congrats. I have just looked up your profile now - I kind of thought I had looked it up before, but probably not, I think I just followed a link to one of your poems and from there to all four sets. So now it can be told! You're Shelagh O'Neil, former subject of Her Majesty, now a resident of Galloway, New Jersey, USA (wherever that is - Galloway, I mean, I've heard of the USA - former colony if I recall...). Ah, yes, where was I? My first - no, tell a lie - second ever girlfriend was named Shelagh but she spelled it with two "es". Sheelagh, which I had always thought was the Gaelic spelling. I'm not fully convinced that it's a derivation of "Celia", I thought she was a totally different Irish saint, but I'll take your word for it. Sorry, rambling again. You mentioned a comic book account of quantum mechanics. There is a very well known thing called "Alice in Quantum Land" by Robert Gilmore, which is a spoof of "Alice in Wonderland" only what she's experiencing is all accountable in terms of quantum theory. It's a bit patronising and probably won't tell you very much about quantum physics if you don't already have some grasp of the territory, but it's very witty and well written. Was that the one your friend suggested? When I was a student at London Uni they had lots of visiting lecturers - big public events - and the physicists were always the most fun. Herman Bondi is a brilliant comedian. We've got Stephen Hawking over here too, the well known man-computer cyborg, and Roger Penrose, who was kind enough (and I do mean that) to e-mail me as to how I had got practically everything wrong when I wrote "SIRAT". He has written mountains of stuff on artificial intelligence and believes it (consciousness) can never be achieved by any system that obeys an algorithm, however complex, because consciousness depends on "uncollapsed quantum fields". My proposition in "SIRAT" was therefore heresy. But I was very flattered that he actually took the time to tell me why (between you and me I'm still not convinced).

British Gorilla huh? Grrrrrrrrrrr me want banana, and you'd better pay up!! Visit thoughtcafe and see how close you DO actually come with that description. Pic there...under author, and then O. See? Really user friendly! Yeah...*affected yawn* had Stephen Hawking hanging around my coffee table for a couple of weeks...well, his latest book anyway. Didn't help either! And Alan Alda isn't exactly a friend. He's an actor...ever hear of Mash? These days he hosts a sort of scientic forum on pbs, hence my reason for contacting him about my challenged brain! But he didn't remember the name of the comic...told me to ask in libraries and such. I'll add your suggestion to my list. Patronizing is okay for British Gorilla. *whisper* grrl is GIRL with some zip to it! Brit girl, brit girl, brit girl. But Roger Penrose! Wow! I'm impressed. By the by are we on as business partners..you know, for Mirage Busters? (you've heard of Ghost Busters, right?)

bin written many times. but that's only the background - what you make of it is the originality of the plot, interest in the theme, and how you write. then its unique.

Almost every single story has been done before...e-griff is right. its the way you tell 'em.

Make it into a boy meets girl story and no one will know the difference. :)))

same thing happened to me...had this idea for a story where i tie up this woman to a chair and i can do ANYTHING i want to her...not really got much of a plot apart from that...think i might call it Tickling Tina...

Better yet, write a story in which nothing changes for 250 years. That's probably closer to the mark anyway. :))))

Most stories been done before? Not true. More new stories yet to be written than totality of those written before.. Now think.. who can predict what genetically modified humans and animals and their technology will really be like.. except our best futuristic writers off course.. Give it a try..Penmagic..

Most stories been done before? Not true. More new stories yet to be written than totality of those written before.. Now think.. who can predict what genetically modified humans and animals and their technology will really be like.. except our best futuristic writers off course.. Give it a try..Penmagic..

dear 1leg, all stories are basically the same ... little red riding hood is a classic example of a story that has been retold millions of times in novels over time ... and ... erm ... my wife knows how to say this better than i do ... i'll get back to you ... but trust me ... ... you are talking about the content ... that is largely irrelevant ... it is the producing of a novel - irrelevant of subject - that is the skill. not that I know of course, especially since some of my own work breaks the 'rules' of a story ... anyway ... tbc