I'd love some help with this

let's just say if you were a jehovah's witness on my street, you'd have got the door in your face by the start of the 2nd line

there is nothing wrong with this poem rhythmically or in terms of its rhyme ... the problem for me is the way in which it deals with its subject ... it may be a foible of mine but i like poems that deal with the personal and that is lacking here ... the poem seems like some sort of lecture and makes the subject of consumerism seem distanced through the rhyme scheme which might be more suitable for something lighter and more humourous ... the whole effect is one of making the subject seem irrelevant and lofty ... i think readers need the personal to connect themselves to something ... maybe like the difference between told to eat your dinner up when you were a kid because millions were starving in africa ... and the first time you saw a real starving child and could identify with it in some way ... so for me the poem doesn't say anything affecting and the form (whilst perfectly ok structurally) detracts too ... i dont like being lectured to about lofty matters and i don't ever feel poetry is the place to do it either ...

You don't like the reduction of things you place value on into commodoties. And yet you address the reader as if they are a robot. You reduce everyone else to a mechanical level. 'Cold and greedy hearts and third world debt and pollution.' No one else cares, only you. It's a harangue to robots, there is no warmth or sense of shared values. It's as if you, the writer, are the only one alive who understands love. I think there is more than a lack of irony here, it is a lack of respect. Big Time. For more details refer to Justyn Thymes comment to you on an earlier discussion thread. Regards, Vartis.

I believe poetry can deal with social issues, but it's a difficult area. It's important to avoid being sententious or superior as this quite rightly turns people off. It's no longer acceptable, as it once perhaps was, for the writer to take a position outside of the problem. I agree with Fish that the very simple rhythm and rhyme scheme employed here tends to trivialise the subject. It's lack of subtlety suggests childrens' verse and to be lectured in such a manner is additionally irritating to say the least. I'm aware that your heart is in the right place, Mykle, and none of my criticisms are meant to be personal. This strictly to do with technique. It's not so much what you're saying as the way you're saying it. Poetry moves on and so does its audience. To my mind you need a fresher, more aware approach. I suspect you don't read a lot of contemporary poetry and I feel this is a big mistake. I hope this will be of help. Of course it's just my opinion.

sorry mykle but i have to go along with the above comments. there are quite a few poems of this kind [and i think it is fair to say that it is poetry of a type] on abc...many of them about sep 11 of course...and i'm never sure what reaction their authors expect. i think for me it is a question of communication...your poem has a very clear message, but it is a message that has been heard before...and it is explicit...there is no room for the reader's imagination, he can only say "i agree" or "i don't agree" i am sceptical when people say what poetry is "for"...here you are setting out a set of beliefs and that in itself is fine...but they are like a bought set of beliefs...it would work better for me if they were your starting point and you wrote something that was personal to you...your own thoughts i think it is how it is done that for me does not work...it is a poem that says nothing about the author's own thoughts because the sentiments are ones that are encoutered so frequently

I too am sceptical when people start saying what poetry is for... but if you look at the history of poetry, technically it certainly was a form of news communication, of saying of things that were happening.. BUT, and this is a big but, good poetry has to do this in a way that communicates well. It must use its subject effectively, in a way that communicates to others. Now, me and rhyme/rhythm are old adversaries.. its an argument that has raged on abc many a time.. but if you are going to use it, then you must make sure that its not at the sacrifice of the message you are trying to communicate... IS it a ryhming poem? if it is, then it should use whole rhyme, or half rhyme consistently, not skitter between the two with no pattern.. and "gained" used with "regained" at the end doesnt work for me, its too sloppy... I'll agree that to work effectively, it needs something of the writers (and i use this word reluctantly) soul in it, or its just reporting. And, Im sure that you didnt mean it to sound sermonish (is that a word?) but it does...

Well i have to agree with everybody really ( i've found it helps not to rock the boat when you're in it !). One other point i would like to add is that everybody believes that bygone days were better but they seldom are for one reason or another. We just tend to swap one ill for another in this world and i think you missed that. You don't have to make it flowery or positive but it may help if you examined the issues of the past too, and realised that there are a decent amount of the great and good out there doing their best to improve all of our circumstances and we are still all learning from our mistakes. Otherwise it really isn't that bad - it just seems to be a bit af navel-gazing though. But then that's my theory and i may not know a thing!

Thanks for all the comments - it's nice to see everyone agreeing for a change. I think I'll just scrap the poem and take Tom's advice and read a lot more contemporary poetry. I must admit I often do feel like a bit of a dinosaur. I didn’t realised I came over so preachy - but I can see it now. Strange how you tend to be blind to your own faults. I’m quite looking forward to trying a new approach - thanks all!

how about re writing it from a more personal angle mykle? you dont have to post it, but it could be a good exercise if you are trying to move into a freer style.

Agreed with Liana there. Don't scrap it just look at it again and use the critique to develop it, think maybe that's all it needs.

The problem is that I never really knew where I wanted to go with it - other than to ask the question "Do we really think we are making progress?" I realised, later, that the title came from a Beatles song (Yesterday) which does deal with the past in a much more personal way. However, I wanted to ask - if as a society, the material gains are worth the loss of sense community and the decline of spiritual values.

Ah now that seems an entirely different debate. Once said to an very non-religious person that decline in community matched decline in church numbers ! That was an interesting conversation. Anyway think its down to more than just material gain. Have to examine all our attitudes to life, work, and leisure time. Spiritual value i think has increased, though belief in a God has probably slacked off a bit. Read into that what you like but that could be an intriguing premise for a poem. Lets have a go at one each ! hehehe

'Strange how you tend to be blind to your own faults.' It is very hard and sometimes impossible to be objective about ourselves. It is much easier to be objective about others. 'I wanted to ask - if as a society, the material gains are worth the loss of sense community and the decline of spiritual values.' Some things as a community we have lost to our detriment. An example would be how the threat of idiotic litigation makes it more difficult to be helpful; it's a godsend to those who love officousness and jobsworth carry ons. But for all kinds of groups the loosening of the grip of what represents community has been a time of liberation. Sexuality, race, gender - the amount of diversity and tolerance toward these issues is a world away from what it was twenty years ago. To say that is not to be blind to those ugly manifestations of intolerance which are about, but to place them in a context. We should have the courage to restrain those who use that tolerance to promote gangsterism and fear. I make no distinction between the corporate thug and the street thug. (They have a lot in common, robbing old people because they are an easy touch for one...) I've no idea if the losses and gains are 'worth it' in the long term or even in the short term. You and I Mykle, have plenty of freedom in which to explore or establish any kind of religious or spiritual inclination which takes our fancy. We are free to be as much or as little materialsts as we are able, we are free to be as mendacious or as generous as we are able. We are free to correspond and debate with almost any kind of community imaginable in which to cultivate our own growth. This is something which I am not inclined to sneer at.

no, they absolutely are not worth what we have lost.. its something i feel incredibly strongly about... its ok for us though, to stand in a material society and say "but its not worth anything! what you have is worth far more" to a country full of people which is still packed with cilture and values... i see in the future, when they are full of spite and envy that they will agree with me, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. Its like wanting to be rich, and a rich man saying "but its crap being rich" - easy for him to say, id like to try and make my own decisions about that...

I think it's difficult for younger people to understand how different life was until the 60's changed everything. Some things were better, some worse - but there was no need to lock your door and very few rapes, muggings and murders. I don't say that the whole blame lies with increased materialism - although I’m sure that’s a major factor - but in our attitude to our neighbours, community and society in general. It used to be your moral duty to get involved for the public good in spite of the hassle involved - now a lot of people ‘don’t want to know’: “It’s not my problem!” they say not realising that maybe next time it will be. As a nation we are crying out for more ‘Bobbies’ on the beat because we have lost our sense of community, become somehow alienated from each other, and expect the police to protect us in our isolation. I know this isn’t true for everyone, everywhere - but it is a growing trend that could lead to the sort of society we used to associate with post apocalyptic horror stories.

"but its not worth anything!" God knows it's easy enough to make the case that affluence hasn't created happy nations. But in terms of academic freedoms, press freedoms, rights of the individual then the USA and Europe are a long way ahead of most of the world. There are huge numbers of people who want to live in the USA or UK. For asylum (I use the word in the sense of refuge from persecution) seekers there are real and immediate benefits. Such as it is pretty unlikely that you will have an electrical supply hooked up to your genitalia if you disagree with government policy. I can't relate to that 'full of spite and envy' thing. If it wasn't for people's goodwill then the Health system in this country would grind to a halt overnight. People all over care for members of their family who are sick or feeble and need help. People all over put their own life on hold to help out their friends or family or community for some reason which is important to them. Look at this thread, a guy says 'I could do with some help here'. What's the main response - to use the anonymity of the internet to take the piss or mock him or call him a fool. No, what people have done is take some time out from their own activities to genuinely try and help as asked. Lighten up Liana.

*crippled with laughter*

You don't half talk some bollocks Vartis mate. What are you like.

Vartis - is sadly like many other people - in fact a vast majority of people - they seem weird because they're speaking their mind and seeing as they see it not as you or I want them to do - perhaps some people need to take note of this - when trying to influence others over what they should read or not - or maybe that should be ........ no think thats best to keep that to myself yea he /she may be talking a load of 'bollocks' but someone else might agree totally with what he/she has to say - then it could be said that you are really talking a load of 'bollocks' besides joining Liana in fits of contagious giggles - "with deep RESPECT" Liana - I note your point Mykle - plastic macs DO suit certain people !

People can write what they want to, say what they want to, read what they want to. They can also give an opinion when asked for it. No-one is forced to take notice.

I must admit i have just moved from a big town into a village and the sense of commuity here chokes me to be honest. I still can't get used to what REAL community appears to be. I state as i have said before that there are problems, but there are also areas where things have continued in a real sense of co-operation. I am lucky to be in a situation like that now and really can't get used to it. But it does make you feel good about yourself and others around you. Maybe we miss that point about community.

Well sorry - I was a bit hasty about the Jehovahs witnesses, I mean sometimes I have managed to distract them from the preaching and had quite interesting conversations. i think that if you were to write about people's apathy and greed and excesses, abuses against the environment etc in a vivid way , as a living experience or individual scenarios illustrating your point, then the reader would be free to draw their own moral conclusions, if any. I really dislike the following line for a couple of reasons ......... "Don?t listen to the prophets - disregard the old." the reasons are 1. insincerity .... what you're really saying is DO listen to the prophets. Saying 'don't' has a sarcastic flavour which can be seen as accusatory, aggressive. 2. People who listen to the prophets might still neglect their old. And someone who works and cares for old people, may not have ever listened to a prophet. The two acts are not synonymous. 3. It links 'the old' with 'the prophets' hinting that old people are in some way in the know. I strongly disagree with this idea. Every generation seems to mess up and the next has to sort out the mental chaos they left. Every generation slags off its young for moral disintegration, selfishness etc. Is this a sign of wisdom?

we sure do - roybar - we sure do ! I hate it when people say we have "choice" when they already know that they've already coloured the thinking of a person/people and have thus taken "choice" away! "if I believed everything I read ......." - trouble is the majority do - so is "choice" a viable word ? quote - " It's important to avoid being sententious or superior as this quite rightly turns people off." - Tom Saunders you, delivered a like or a dislike but didn't encourage the reader to decide for themselves - on prinicple if you dont like people disagreeing with you - then consider the way you write a reply or your thoughts on piece and see it through not deliver a complete "robotic" answer yourself - no matter how good or bad the piece may be! - rather then hide behind -'choice' Remember even criticism can come in for criticism - and everyone has to learn and start from somewhere - even me - if you cant respect that simple fact then your the poorer for it - as they say that a person who looks at something with the eyes of a virgin - experience its difference and might see something that an experinence eye couldn't see because they are so use to looking and may have developed a hard skin that lacks any true apprication - bit like the story of the "Emporers new clothes" - he fell for a set of invisible clothing and everyone agreed for fear of offending - all but for one small child who was prepared to stand up and say ! Deep respect Liana - your thoughts were of community - yours was the one that reached out to the writer and opened doors not shut them in their face - you saw into the subject and used your knowledge for the benefit of the reader and the writer ! Nice one - deep deep respect will now go and remove all my work ..............

only joking about removing work !

Liana, I regret putting in 'lighten up' on the end of the post. It was a mistake on my part and I apologise for it. Vartis.

no probs. we all poste in haste sometimes.. me included. you caught me on a bad day.

Pi, you've completely lost me. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. An opinion is an opinion. Mykle must get a number of reactions to his poem and decide for himself what he can use. If you react more favourably to it why don't you tell him what you liked? I don't think I moralised in my post and it's impossible to give a view of something without the illusion of superiority. By asking for help, Mykle agreed tacitly not to accuse the people posting in this thread of such a thing. I certainly wouldn't volunteer my views - perish the thought. I don't like criticising other people and I don't do it for fun. I have no idea why you're upset and I'm sorry if you found my comments robotic.

I've made no complaints about any of the comments or advice that I've been given. I have to admit, though, that my initial enthusiasm for trying a new, more modern, approach is slowly transforming into the realisation that it's very hard to teach an old dog new tricks ;o)

Who said I was upset - Tom ? sorry to have lost you - I suppose that's due to my deing dyslexic and not having the equal or as high abilities as you - I mean I do have a nasty habit of going off on a tangent - which does tend to confuse people and I am well aware of not only it but also my own inabilities - I appologise ! even though I did find your one of your replies robotic - I think that's because I hear it so often - its a bit like a mantra - "you have choice" - "you have choice" - when everyone knows that "choice" is as limiting as it is limited Its a bit like saying "we live in perfect world " Mykle who are trying to kid ?

I wasn't talking about THOSE sort of tricks, Pi.

MYKLE

Think what we're gettting at deep down here is the feeling that more and more people seem not to have choice in this world hence the greater feeling of injustice. I have to agree with that. Even the old chenstnut of America being the land of opportunity is a phrase found wanting for the most part and that in the end may well be the key to most things that are being reflected here - or am i just losing the thread ? :-)

And here's a critique thread that unwound. What a shame!

Whilst I agree with many of the comments regarding the subject matter of this poem, I will limit my input to offering some help regarding the structure of the poem, since that is what Mykle is requesting. I don’t think the poem is technically beyond repair. Lack of rhythm is the main problem. Here is an edited version that goes some way towards correcting that. I have split it into its component couplets for ease of reading. Numbering lines is useful for the purposes of critiquing. I suggest that every poem offered for criticism is numbered in this way. The sentiments in the poem might be made more inclusive by changing ‘your’ to ‘our’, ‘you’ to ‘we’ etc.; this places the writer on the same side as the reader. I will leave the matter of rhyming to those more familiar with the technicalities to comment on. The poem might be constructed in three stanzas: Lines 1-8, 9-16 & 17-20. I Believe In Yesterday. 1. Do you ever wonder where it all went wrong? 2. Today became tomorrow and yesterday was gone. 3. Yesterday, it seems, was better than today. 4. In the name of progress so much good was thrown away. 5. Loving, sharing, caring - they’re going out of style. 6. Hearts grow cold and greedy – only profit brings a smile. 7. Values that gave meaning are now gone from our life. 8. Consumerism fuels the ever-growing strife. 9. Do you ever wonder where it all went wrong? 10. Murders, rapes and mugging - the sick become the strong. 11. Violence and drugs replace the fear of God. 12. A man’s worth is dependent on the thickness of his wad. 13. Materialism warps as it spreads across the land. 14. The lonely become lonelier, the lost become the damned. 15. Disregard the starving - count our blessings and forget. 16. Ignore Global Warming, pollution, Third World Debt. 17. Don’t listen to the prophets - disregard the old. 18. The only things that matter are those that can be sold. 19. In return for all we’ve lost, this is what we’ve gained: 20. Gadgets, cars and credit cards - oh, Paradise regained!

Thanks, Basho! I'm impressed. I shall be very interested to see if Tom and Fish think this has solved some of the problems - or if it still needs to be more modern and personal. Certainly you have made the poem much easier to 'come to grips with'. Thanks again.

Why do you think it all went wrong ? tick one answer from each section to check your score see bottom of page 34 PAST a. Today became tomorrow and yesterday was gone. b. Yesterday, it seems, was better than today. c. In the name of progress so much good was thrown away. PRESENT a. Loving, sharing, caring - they?re going out of style. b. Hearts grow cold and greedy ? only profit brings a smile. c.Values that gave meaning are now gone from our life. d.Consumerism fuels the ever-growing strife. FUTURE a. Murders, rapes and mugging - the sick become the strong. b. Violence and drugs replace the fear of God. c. A man?s worth is dependent on the thickness of his wad. d. Materialism warps as it spreads across the land. ALWAYS a. The lonely become lonelier b. The lost become the damned. PRACTICAL a. Disregard the starving - count our blessings and forget. b. Ignore Global Warming, pollution, Third World Debt. PHILOSOPHICAL a. Don?t listen to the prophets - disregard the old. b. The only things that matter are those that can be sold. c. In return for all we?ve lost, this is what we?ve gained: d. Gadgets, cars and credit cards - oh, Paradise regained!

Whilst I concentrated on rhythm, freda has pointed out the possibility of further refinement by editing out repetition/similarity of lines. It might be a useful exercise to re-write the poem in 10 lines instead of 20, and to also produce an unrhymed version.

Very inventive, freda! I had thought to try an unrhymed version but, as I intimated yesterday, I began to realise that I didn't know where to start. I've had a few ideas this morning but I'm expecting it to be a fairly long process. Perhaps it's made harder because I'm hoping to evoke the feeling of frustration and deterioration that I felt when I first wrote the poem.

Would this sort of approach be an improvement? Sitting in the sunshine feeling somehow ‘at one’. Reminds me of yesterday when I used to belong. When street felt more friendly and people were warm Like a leaf on a tree - not afraid of the storm..... I could probably convert most of the ‘message’ into this style if it is better.

sounds like a rap version. is that deliberate? I thought Freda's 'tense' post excellent. haven't commented before as I knew there was something about this poem that I didn't like but couldn't find the words. Didn't want to merely say 'I don't like it' so just watched and learned from the many comments. as chooselife said, shame the thread turned into the usual 'brawl' at one point but at least it is back on track now. So, is it rap? If it isn't ... put on your best rapper voice and read it fast and, hopefully, you will see what I mean. What I'm trying to say is ... I think if you read it slowly, with modest pace and concentration on the rhyme ... it sounds a tad nursery schoolish. put on the Ice-T and it lives. (or whoever ... I don't actually know the names of many rappers!) or maybe not. I think I need an aspirin.

I got a bit carried away with the rap theme and lost my way. Ah, well - back to the drawing board... Sitting in the sunshine feeling somehow ‘at one’. Reminds me of yesterday when I used to belong. When street felt more friendly and people were warm Like a leaf on a tree - not afraid of the storm... Sometimes I wonder - where it all went wrong. The sick and the twisted now respected and strong. All this talk of progress - it don’t impress me none. Seems all the things I used to like are going or gone! Sometimes feel society's become rotten to the core Seems that only money has a voice any more. Had to drop my standards - my life went off track. Started on amphetamines and end up on crack Gotta get some substance, somehow, some way. I need a little help just to get thru my day. God comes thru a needle, a pipe or a pill. Just to get another visit - I’ll beg, steal or kill.

I love the thoughts of the poem. I don't know much about poetry, but enjoyed the story and think your questions are legitimate. tom

Thanks, Tom. Well - that's two of us then ;o)

mmfffffmmmmmmpftttttttt ... *the sound of self restraint from saying "doesn't the poet know most about the poem, mykle?"* *exits pleased with self restraint*

:o)