Helping ABC

Here's an idea for raising a bit of cash. What about setting up a second-hand book exchange in with members are totally responsible for managing their listings and can charge for p&p, but each transaction earns ABCTales a small percentage of price? Just a thought, I'd be interested in buying in this way.

that should read 'in which'

Right. Tony and I had a little chat about holding an event at the Bloomsbury a couple of months back. We were slightly pissed but the idea still sticks. I am only here for a few more months but heck,we can make thiswork. We can hold 500 plus here at this venue. Get some name writers in to do some readings (I know enough and their agents, Tony does to), charge us punters a tenner a pop, sell the gaff out and you make £5,000 (£4,000 less £1,000 hire fee, which would be a huge discount to what every other client gets). Also a huge event will get potential sponsers and funders on board with the site,. We have had many readings here and the right people performing sell like a bomb. ABC would have the support from the theatre marketing know-how plus the kudos of it happening at UCL. If this is a stupid idea then someone please tell me. Cheers Ralph

Sorry to be thick but why would this event attract potential funders and sponsors to the site. Doesn't TC or someone at ABC try to do that everyday?

I think Ralph's idea sounds good. I also agree with Mississippi that paying contributors - although nice in theory - would be a disaster in practice. A few years ago there used to be an American site for writers and poets called Themestream which went down this route. Despite the site owners' efforts to prevent it, there was massive abuse of the system, and the site eventually collapsed. Instead of focusing on well thought out quality writing, many people just churned out short attention-seeking pieces that would attract lots of clicks and therefore larger payments. Most of these pieces were cynically written, entirely superficial and had no literary merit. In my view introducing a payment scheme for contributors would just skew the whole focus of this site and change its character for the worse.

Flash A big event attracts big people. Get some top name writers, mix it up with some of the top writers on the site, stick them on a big stage. Give selected potential sponsers or funders a drink and a sausage roll, let them meet some of the university top brass (they love that), and they will show an initial interest. What happens after that is when the real graft starts, but you have to grab them by the bollocks first. We do a lot of this schmooze malarky here and believe me it pays big. I am not telling anyone here how to suck eggs just trying to raise thre profile. Cheers Ralph

Is the main problem the cost of the bandwidth? If so, why not encourage people to cull old stories and poems that no longer need to be part of the archive, or limit the number of pieces people could upload? Re. subscriptions I feel that there are lots of much bigger subscription based writers' sites out there who offer more services for the money. Another obvious point - this forum gets a lot of hits. Could bandwidth be saved by cutting the forums, or limiting them to certain times? (Don't all rush to throttle me at once, it's only a thought!) Don't get me wrong, I love coming on the forums but how essential are they to the core work of the site - i.e. people posting their work - compared to how much it costs to host the forums 24/7? It's hard to comment though when we don't know the costs involved with running the site, and the breakdown of what goes where. Richard and Andrea on UK Authors seem to fund their site themselves, which has over 1000 members. I've funded my own popular sites before now. How much is involved in hosting ABCTales? From my own experience with running websites, people are happy to come and take from the net but don't want to pay for anything, sadly. Ralph's idea could be extended to create regular ABCTales nights, which could act as fundraisers, say every couple of months.

I still think that writing competitions would be a decent revenue spinner. Someone independent of the site to judge, cash prize, open it up to people outside abc. Writing competitions make money. A better method than Gerry's IMHO, is that people pay a membership subscription, and that some of this money is diverted into print - I'm sure Andrea can help with how they are doing it on UKAuthors, but if people were paying subs in the knowledge that they were also helping writers here have a chance to get published, that would sweeten the pill. I do think Gerry is right with the idea that we should somehow add value to the writers if subs are introduced - but agree with Missi that a popularity contest is open to severe abuse.

Ralph's idea sounds like a good one. Don't really like the idea of competitions - not within a writing community. Unless like Andrew says you have an independent judge and something different from a cash prize - publication somewhere for example. There are horror anthologies printed every year. Or you could have the abc Woman's Weekly competition. There's also a newish magazine called Ink. and so on...

mutitasking - does this involve mutation whilst doing lots of things at once? I'd give it a go.

Subscription + voting as I suggested above would most certainly be open to abuse.... If it can be made foolproof, whats wrong with the idea of rewarding writers for their efforts and to encourage more works? We all buy books don't we? Here is an idea that I think could work and would be more in tune with the ethos of this site:- When you sign up , you are encouraged to deposit a small pot of money (amount left to user)... 1)This pot of money remains on 'account' unless you decide to spend it. You can spend it for example by flicking a few pennies worth to another user... because you have read something you like or whatever. You can also spending it by buying books, accessories etc that are promoted by the site and for which the site would recieve a commision (eg ABC account money could be used on sister websites + other third parties too) 2) Of course, as you spend it... your little pot diminishes. You are free not to spend it and/or to remove the balance at any time of your choosing. You can also replenish your pot at any time if it runs out. 3) You may end up a Beneficiary! People who like your latest work may flick you a few pennies. Taken together, that could end up a tidy sum. You may end up with more than you started with! 4) Transparency. You have a view of all transactions impacting your account. Tho, there should be a facility for sending monies anonymously! You have the option of providing feedback/criticism together with your pennies. 5) The summary stats would make interesting reading and a true indication of the popularity of genres, pieces and authors on the site... and how much of an impact new writers make etc 6) I can't help but think that 'good' members, those that flick out the most transactions and interact with the most people should be rewarded back in some small way.... perhaps a small deposit from ABC back into their account every month. In this scenario, ABC is acting a little bit like a bank and makes an income in a number of ways: 1) Interest on the deposited monies 2) A transaction fee (eg 10%) of all transactions, including when you flick some money to other writers. Benefits of this system:- * In this model No One plays if they don't wish to. However, if you don't play you cannot earn either. Fair. * If you did deposit a sum, you are free to remove whatever is unspent at any time. * Generates income streams for ABCtales to help run and DEVELOP the site further. * Most Importantly IMO, It will encourage interactions between writers and readers - As a reader, it will give an opportunity to show appreciation and encouragement for a piece that has touched you. As a writer, you get real feedback on your work, and an incentive to improve your skills and experiment more. * A thriving and expanding site with new people coming on board all the time. These are the bare bones of the idea, however, there would be have to be pretty defined rules and some nifty code (but nothing too major). Could it work? Most definitely IMO, and what fun!

Some women would say that men certainly mutate into something rather unpleasant when it is suggested that they should attempt to multitask.

Hahahaha .... Hasn't Smile got special promotion on at the moment where if you set up an account you get a free webcam?

Hey now - I can juggle you know!

So it was you in purplehaze's tumbledrier?

I may be able to juggle but I don't bend.

Thankyou for these suggestions - plenty of food for thought. And a very big thankyou to those of you who have helped us out in the financial way. Not enough of you, by the way, but undieing gratitutude to those who have! Mark and I will chew over the suggestions and come back to you on them shortly.

And thought it was just me sitting at my computer mutating and multitasking whilst juggling ball's without bending. Dose this get me a free web cam?

Yes, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. Comps don't make any money really though, Andrew, especially if you're offering a cash prize. Basically I run them for fun and because they encourage people to write. And the work involved in setting them up (finding a judge, promoting, keeping track of entires/entry fees, updating pages, answering related emails etc) far outweighs any financial gain. Ralph's offer was very generous, and I quite liked the book exchange idea, too. But there again, not a lot of dosh involved, I wouldn't have thought. Don't think the bandwidth is the prob either (although I could be wrong) as it's not that costly to upgrade to a higher b/w account. I agree with Missus re paying by popularity (sorry, Gerry). It's been tried on several sites and hasn't proved very popular at all. And, indeed, Themestream collapsed because of it. Plus it's quite difficult (technically speaking) to set it up. Just my thoughts, not very helpful, I know. Let me know is there's anything I can do...

The other thing that occurs to me, is (and we've mentioned this before) is that there are companies about who will provide a detailed crit in exchange for money - there are people here who might be willing to give up their time to do a crit for writers who want feedback and are prepared to pay. Something along the lines of 'pre-submission polish', so part proof-reading, part constructive criticism, to get it into shape before sending it to publishers/agents. It seems to me that a basic low monthly subscription, plus a series of 'extras' which people could opt for if they desired might be the way forward. How does the publishing on ukauthors work Andrea? And by the way, very pleased that barenib is being published - he's certainly a writer who deserves a book on the shelves, one of the finest poets here.

Ralph's idea definitely has some runnings... can it be made to work? A high profile boost for this site.

What d'you mean, Andrew, the publishing of submissions or the UKA Press? If the latter, I've just done an interview with Mark Brown, which not only explains all, but should be posted on ABC shortly. If you'd like a preview, and Mark doesn't mind, I could send you a copy. Yes, I was pleased for barenib - and we're doing a Tom Saunders, too :-)

Can you send me a preview Andrea? Andrew.pack@langleys.co.uk

Have emailed you, Andrew.

As a business consultant and freelance writer, one of the most important things for a well-run business operation is a business agenda. Without it, there is no direction. This applies to those owning and operating a website for writers as well. Most business owners overlook the most obvious source of revenue which is free advertising and proliferation of your site's name consistently. If this website was a Fortune 500 Corporation, a complete network of associated businesses would help generate revenue. Knowing your biggest competitors is also important. Perhaps to save this site, a restructuring of the original format may help. An epublishing site has to have extensions and outreaches to advance itself. Its always sad to see a website tanked when it can be saved by use of a few strokes to fortify it. Especially in the literary arts, quality must always come before quantity. Its better to have a site that moves forward because of its reputation for quality than to have a site that is overloaded with quantity material. This is no different than any regular business. Those with benchmark reputations maintain clientele for decades. And, incidentally, revenue. So, first thing is to weed out the unnecessary. That alone can save money. Then, look for areas where a relative network can be established. Use every possible opportunity for free advertising of your site. But, first define what it is about your site that marks its reputation for quality. This is the bedrock method of pulling a downward sliding site into one that grows. To me, the old axiom that "The Best Always Lasts" is something to remember. You can have 600 mediocre writers pumping out material or you can choose to maintain a standard of quality. It all comes down to value to your clientele. Knowing your audience is also important. Who reads the material written on your site? How can you draw more readers to it? What is the signature style of your site that will most easily become recognized? Just wanted to put out a few ideas from a business point of view.

Well I can see that you obviously DON'T get the point of the question Jon. >> I don't see many people paying just for the privelege of having their piece 'published' - the point of the publishing is to be heard, and to reach out to other people. If there is no evidence of their response, you might as well post your work in a blank envelope, never knowing what's going to come of it. << By your own admission >> I'm sure most of UKA's users (like, what, 90% of ABC's?) don't participate in the site on a day-to-day basis << So according to you, 90% of users are wasting their time? To correct you, one of the points of publishing is to be heard, there are others which you probably wouldn't acknowledge. As it happens I wasn't having a pop at UKA or any other site in particular. I actually had a couple of American sites in mind when i typed the bit about mutual appreciation societies. I was making a general observation which obviously rankled with some.

It is certainly the case that an unknown writer trying to publish a COLLECTION of short stories is in for a difficult task, but it is possible to get individual short stories published... and as a short story fan myself, I think that firstly, it is easier to get someone to read a 10 page story and give you feedback than a novel, it is less daunting to try and write one and if it doesn't work you spend a fortnight on it rather than six months, and most important factor last - you get better at writing BY writing and the discipline involved in short story writing is a very useful skill to learn.

I find my work is better recieved if I DON'T try Andrew.. what does that say about me huh? When I sit down and write the first thing that comes to mind it's fine... when I try and polish it it all goes to hell.

I don't see how that 90% of users can be wasting their time when they aren't spending any of it on the site! But if they were paying for it, I think they'd be wasting their money, yeah. Do you beg to differ? Do you think people would pay a monthly fee to occasionally upload a piece into the ether, with little chance of personal feedback, or even acknowledgement that others have read it? There is the danger of commentary boxes encouraging only 'mutual appreciation societies', yeah, but don't we, to an extent, do the same here? There's a mere handful of contributors who go so far as to offer critical commentary, and not many more who take time for a full and considered response. When the subject is ABC writers, it's mostly about how wonderful the writers are. Which is fine (before someone bites my head off,) but why is it so much worse when this takes place in commentary boxes, instead of forums?

I nominate fish, Rachel and Liana to run a "Three legged" marathon

i nominate us for three legged cocktail drinking contest ...

You try and promote the site around writers events. The edinburgh festival and other regional events around the UK and Europe. Would that not help get more finances, a bigger audience i mean.

I was merely pointing up the apparent contradiction in your two posts, Jon. Personally, I'm not so sure about why people post their writing on any website when, taking into consideration the one thing we seem to agree about, ie. the miniscule percentage of users that actually take an active part in the day to day proceedings. On the subject of commentary, I venture to suggest that practically ALL of it, whether on ABC or UKA or any other site, is about how wonderful the writers are. Or put another way, I have rarely seen any negative comment, apart from that which occurs on this open and unregulated forum. One of the problems with critique forums and comments on a community site, is that everyone gets sensitive and cliques form. There isn't much writing that I have read on any public web-site that I think is 'wonderful'. In fact most of it is in my opinion, garbage. I nevertheless think it's 'wonderful' that sites such as this exist so the not-so-wonderful can display their not-so-wonderful writings. I wouldn't differentiate between commentary boxes and forums, I just can't stand sycophantic bullshit.

"In this model No One plays if they don't wish to. However, if you don't play you cannot earn either. Fair." My prediction is that if there was a choice whether or not to pay no one would. Why pay for something that is there for free?

Oh yes, am in for the cocktail contest. Not so keen on marathon, unless involves running to the bar....

Hmmm Martini vodka Sex on the beach mojito Raspberry daquiri Cosmopolitan Slippery nipple Traffic light Tequila sunrise Sloe comfortable screw Black russian White russian red aftershock blue aftershock Kir royale I'll the site a fiver for each of you to drink everything on the list on Friday

I am definetly sending a donation this thursday have been saying this for quite while now as the orifice staff are probably quite aware but definelty this week.

I meant I'll give the site. Losing my words! I will also donate a giant size pack of alker seltzer photographic evidence required

>> If it can be made foolproof, whats wrong with the idea of rewarding writers for their efforts and to encourage more works? We all buy books don't we? << What's wrong Gerry, is that ever since it's inception, ABCtales has been an egalitarian site, i.e. everybody is equal. Now I accept that some 'writers' are better at writing than others, but once you start paying the tiny minority that are lauded on the site you open up a chasm between them and the proletariat that will cause dissent, disenchantment leading to jealousy and eventual disintegration of the community spirit if not the site itself. One of the qualities that I admire in Tony Cook is his utter determination that this site is open to all, and free of any kind of censorship or elitism. Long may it continue.

"there was a feel there that 'if you're not writing to be published, you're wasting your time' - I don't believe that. I believe that people write for a whole host of reasons and that the web can provide support and guidance for all of those people." This is interesting. Especially in reference to anthologies such as those published by UK Authors. For me, I do want to published but publication is a means to an end, that end being people reading my writing. I've been published in numerous small press magazines and anthogies and also have also had a poetry pamphlet published by a small publisher. But there is a question, which I deal with on a case by case basis, of whether there's any point being published in publications that nobody's going to read. Many small press anthologies contain a large percentage of work that is so bad that it's virtually inconceivable that the books would ever be of interest to a general reader. So do these publications widen the exposure of writing or simply waste paper? I'm not sure. There's nothing wrong with online writers groups publishing their members work in paper form in the same way as offline writers groups do but there might be some confusion about what 'publication' means in this context.

Nothing is ever for free George... Someone, somewhere along the line has got to pay... And if you really find consistent value in something is it not only fair that you contribute in part towards its upkeep. It is immoral in my mind to purely rely on the charity of others. With payment (money=time) comes growing appreciation and also accountability. However, not as in giving to charities - what I personally find frustating about giving to charities is the fact that you are expected to give without any accountability or follow through whatsoever.... that to my mind is an unethical request too. The internet trend, now that value has been established is moving towards paying in one way or another for services that people want and use... Whereas ABC was perhaps new and attractive a few years ago... there is not much to differentiate it from the plethora of writing sites out there now... certainly not in terms of the facilities it offers. It still has a community of interested parties though, just about though, as I would venture that is not growing as rapidly it used to.... My fear is that ABC, without development (and that means resources and funding) is in real danger of degenerating into a cozy club with just the regular suspects in attendance. Instead I would rather wish for a dynamic environment, always looking out for new ways to encourage new people to come on board and to stimulate creativity and experimentation amongst those already here... We must never forget that it is good writers that make other people come here too, and to my mind we should find at least a small way of rewarding those that obviously put a lot of time and effort in their work. To continue being attractive, you need to be a little different to the rest and perhaps the time has come for something innovative (such as my money pot idea)... to bring in the punters to have a go.... I think it would be fun. Who here cannot afford a tenner?

Somehow, (perhaps for the sake of a good old argument?) my stance on this seems to have been radically misinterpreted. I said earlier, "when I say 'feedback', I don't just mean suggestions on how to improve the piece - just an honest response to it." To expand, I mean evidence that, as Andrew says, that "someone who is not a personal friend or a relative....liked it." Yes, I'm in the 'striving for improvement' camp, but I was arguing for Missi's majority figure as well. Let's call him Mr. Hobby-Writer. For Mr. Hobby-Writer, surely Andrew's second complaint against the commentary boxes is redundant - if he's getting positive responses without critical feedback, that'll suit him to a T. Better than simply posting something into the ether, as one does here. I mean, yes, the editors read everything, but if you don't stand out, you get no response - it's all trees falling in unpopulated woods. I can't believe Mr. Hobby-Writer would prefer that to the UKA system, where he might get 3 or 4 positive comments. There are problems, of course. Missi thinks of such comments as merely sycophantic, and therefore not worth paying any attention to. I would like to think (and in UKA's case, I thoroughly believe,) that most of them are completely sincere. That's good enough for Mr. Hobby-Writer, and it's good enough for me - I'm not gonna berate someone for not being critically sensitive enough. Just someone saying 'I enjoyed that' counts for something. Why the need to be so cynical about it? Missi posted his 'Essex Girl' poem on UKA, and people said stuff like, "That was funny. Cheers, George." To me, that exchange is what it's all about - writing sites should be about engaging with one another, critically or non-critically, through work and comment, otherwise it's just stockpiling material. The second problem is, I guess, that Mr. Hobby-Writer ends up getting the critical feedback he doesn't want, and is annoyed. There is, I agree, potential for upset and disputes, but I see very little of that on UKA, and what community could exist without that potential? "To say that 'if you're not writing to be published you're wasting your time' is patent bollocks. To have publication (even in a modest book with limited sales) as a goal and mark of success is, to my mind, rather egotistical." I'm talking about publication as it applies here - as in, 'to make your work available for other people to read'. That means uploading it onto the site. Now, I agree that some people write just for themselves (diaries, notes etc.) and I believe you when you say you only post it here to participate in the forums, but I think you're in a pretty slim minority there. I imagine most people who make the effort to publish something on a website *do* care, to some extent, whether or not people read it, even if they aren't looking for critical feedback, and would appreciate some acknowledgement, even if it's just a simple "I enjoyed reading that." Now, are we clear?

I've never wanted something for nothing, Gerry. I've already said i would be happy to pay, but not to give cash to elitists.

Stephen - only as and when - and don't go without for our sake! Still got 85 mugs for sale though!

An interesting point - I'm in favour of the UKA press idea, I think Andrea and Richard are doing a cracking job, and there is something different about having a book that people can hold. What might be the way of doing it, were we ever to go down this route at abc, is to pick the works that one would want to go into it, but also be saying "Right, here are fifty or so potential pieces for a book, but we would like the writers of each to spend a month really looking at the piece, perhaps with some help from one of our editors, to really polish the piece up, to make it a piece that is improved from the raw material that we liked anyway. " That has the twin-benefits, hopefully, of getting a piece of work that the writer can be really satisfied with and getting the book as a whole as good a quality as we can make it. I'll be honest, even after I've worked on a piece for around six months, I can make small simple but effective changes as the result of someone helpful looking at the piece and making observations (thanks Drew, Gerry, Emma, Liana and TC!). Where anthologies normally struggle is that they take the work as it comes and don't polish and edit.

nah, ya all deserve it and more.

There is no indication of how much would be enough from each of us to keep the site going. £10 a month? £20 a month? £30 annually? We could all dip into the credit card and give a random amount once in a blue moon, but I'm sure the site owners would appreciate a more consistent and regular approach to giving. However, that said, we still don't know how much would be enough. This ambiguous approach to the requests for donations that are becoming more regular lets the strategy down. It seems that the owners need to either decide to have a site that is wholly funded by sponsorship (with donations from site users welcomed but not openly solicited) or a subscription only site where veryone pays their way, with different levels of membership, as so many other writing sites operate.

Err.. what's a slippery nipple, Jude?

If you keep thinking of nipples at your age you'll have a nasty turn. I could sell my body on street corners if you want, i rasied £75.01p last time i did it.

you sold it 150 times?