Exactly right Vicky - for me, the major part of abc must always be to help get those stories out of drawers and somewhere that they might get read. At the moment, I fall into camp 2, but I was certainly in camp 1 two to three years ago and I would never have made the improvements that I hope I have, without abc and thoughtcafe giving me the impetus to write knowing that someone out there might read it and like it.
Our Britgrrl has just been having a barney on UKA because she didn't want her work to be selected for their anthology (a request which I'll point out swiftly that Andrea and Richard were more than happy to comply with), but there was a feel there that 'if you're not writing to be published, you're wasting your time' - I don't believe that. I believe that people write for a whole host of reasons and that the web can provide support and guidance for all of those people.
I'm against a subs site.I donated last month and intend to again. I don't like being forced to pay but if I can afford then I will. Its a bit like visiting a nature reserve or old building with donation boxes. You enjoy and donate so that others can enjoy in future. Ironically what I prepared to donate is more than what a subscription would be but I'd still drop out if charging became compulsary.
We can hope for lottery money and so on but lets start by digging in our pockets and giving a pint or twos worth...charity starts at home. Who can't afford it? Some of you maybe can't but a lot of us can forfeit a round of drinks now and again.
However David is right...realistically we cannot operate on a commercial model with premesis and wages and allsorts to pay in the long run.
I think what abctales stand out from the rest of writing sites online is its personal touch. The people who are involved here are helpful and seem to be never far away. What other site trys to bring its users together.
*no im not looking for a cherry, at some point*
My idea last year, and which i reckon would work and also create a reinesance for poetry in the UK is.....open an abctales.com cafe maybe in Lodon brighton glasgow. In fact just now in glasgow there is a massive redevelopment going on in the city which is backed by european grants and bascially they are going to turn this part of the city in to an artistic throughfare with the hope of cafes and shops that will cater to the arts. Cities in the UK are crying out for such venues where poets and writers can meet and talk and stuff, where they could perform there works everynight give feedback ect why not an abccafe then in to europe then challenege the murdoch empire and with a new way to braodcast new items ect...You could even sell shares to abctalers and cover the cafes with our poems or somink like that..
One thing that works so well for me with this site is that I can sit at my computer working on some piece that I'm writing, and flick back to the forums at intervals for a little chat. That way you can keep going for much longer with the writing. It's a less lonely experience. Keeping your readerhsip in mind is a great reality check.
I also think if the Uk gov are series in challenging literarsey problems in this country they should obvioulsey be making sure web sights like this don't go short of funds..
I think Ralph's idea is a good one. I'd love a ticket for the 'do' should it come off.
I also like the idea of a second hand book exchange. I haven't got a lot of dosh, but I do have spare time and would gladly offer my services in typing up lists of books available or help with anything I could do to aid running it. We all read, pesumably we all have old books kicking about that take up room and attract dust. Why not sell them for a couple of quid a time and donate the proceds to ABC?
Why not get a couple of shit-hot critters (!) on board. Obviously someone with a bit of clout who knows what they are talking about and who could do line by line in depth critiques. People writing something that matters to them, something for a comp say, could pay a fiver a time for up to 5K words. Curtis Brown offered their critiquing service for awhile didn't they? I'm sure T&M could persuade someone else to give a couple of hours a week to do it.
I totally agree with Missi that members shouldn't be paid for their work. I don't like that idea and I think it would come down to the blessed few basking in glory.
More comps are good though.
Instead of cash, perhaps books could be donated as prizes, but then would people pay the entry fee?
I am one of the guilty who take of the site and give nothing in return. I keep meaning to both here and on UKA but bills always seem to get in first.
Lets do some sums:
Say on average you spend a couple of hours or so a week on the ABC site... uploading stories, reading other peoples work or messing about on the forums... Over a month thats 10 hours.
What's it worth to you to keep this site alive and thriving... say 25p an hour?.. cheap for all the recreation/participation/insults you currently get for free..
A thousand subscribers at £2.50 and you get a total of £ 2500 per month. Not a tremendous amount by any means but certainly a help... (I personally think a fiver a month, the price of a couple of pints, or a pack of fags would be acceptable)
To encourage writers to continue to contribute (agree with David) you would need some potential of a financial reward over and above their paid subscription value.... after all a lot of people here want to get published and and what better way to start than by exposing their work to criticism that counts... Are people prepared to convert their appreciation of your work into pennies of encouragement?
In the future, when technology has got to grips with the mechanism of passing value, everyone will be flicking off to everyone else points for those human interactions that presently and sadly goes undervalued... thus good nurses/teachers may one day earn a decent living as will writers of poetry. This is a trend that can already be seen through likes of paypal, internet micropay and loyalty cards etc
I would suggest that at least half of any subscription takings should be distributed to writers... the mechanism for this exists in part on ABC but needs to be made more foolproof.... Each paid up subscriber would have the capability to allocate points (once only) of appreciation eg out of 10 for a piece that takes to them. Monthly this would be totted up and the proceeds distributed in proportion to the most favoured pieces.... Fair or What.... and a real incentive to spend time in improving your future work if you take your writing seriously.
ABC started off as a trail blazing site... why can't this continue? If you sit on your laurels too much in this world you just become quaint and old fashioned in time... its time to be radical. If ABC does not do it someone else will! (Would not surprise me if someone does already)
Off course, I would suggest that reading and forums should remain free... it is only if you wish to upload (and maybe above a certain number of pieces) that you should be asked to subscribe so as to help support your fellow writers and the site... also allowing you entry into the realm of voting and potentially benefit. Off course too, all the financial side should be totally transparent.
Well, at least we have a debate going on this important topic.
I'd happily pay a regular subscription, but the idea of paying the contributors on a popularity basis, or any other basis that depends on popularity, is just plain divisive and should be avoided like the plague.
I think you've got an interesting idea, Gerry.
Not sure I'd support it in its current form but it's definitely worthy of some further consideration.
Initial problems are:
1. I share Missi's worry's about payment by popularity.
2. I'm skeptical about our ability to get 1000 paying subsribers.
3. This scheme on its own wouldn't raise enough cash to make ABC, in its present form, a sustainable operation, let alone a profitable one.
But that's not to discount the general idea as a possible part of the solution.
I believe Andrew is right on practically every point he's made in his posts on this thread. One point that has been over-looked by all here and that might have some bearing on the differing stances adopted, is one of age. A long while back Jon was incensed by what he saw as ageist comments in my contributions to a thread, (I can't remember what the thread was about and can't be arsed to go looking). He thought I was putting youngsters down, and not crediting them with any intelligence etc. I see in THIS debate that youth does, to some extent equal enthusiasm, and in my case, age equals disillusionment and an acceptance of lost youth. One of my favourite sayings is 'my future is all behind me'. I think many older people aren't really looking for recognition for their writing whilst youngsters are ambitious. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact it's probably the natural order of things. I write when I feel moved to, which isn't often. When I DO write I post it on ABC, because in my way I feel it allows me to join in here on the forums. I don't really care whether anyone reads my stuff and care even less what they think of it. I'm not looking to 'improve' as a writer, it's more that what I write is 'me'. To say that 'if you're not writing to be published you're wasting your time' is patent bollocks. To have publication (even in a modest book with limited sales) as a goal and mark of success is, to my mind, rather egotistical. The world is swamped with books full of shite writing, along with the good stuff, so publication isn't necessarily a guide to quality.
I'd agree with you on that Missi - what a load of sh*t gets published these days. Even more reason for abctales to be on the vanguard of communication re-writing. By the way, has anybody looked at the website of Ms Gillespie - link posted on the site. She seems to indicate at one point that serious hopeful writers of novels shouldn't bother with short stories...
Thanks once again to one and all. We are taking up the offers of help and life will continue.
ABC is not in danger of any imminent demise - it just needs some help and you folk are giving it.
Thankyou.
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