God you people talk shit!
Near the supposed end of WW2, Hiroshima was not fire bombed like the rest of Japan was at that time by US forces, because that f**khead 'Harry T' want to live test The Bomb on humans subjects within an intact urban environment to measure its impact and results ... dirty filthy scum!
It was Japanese school teacher (I forget his name) was the first person responsible for instigating and training the Japanese insurugence of suicide bombers into WW2! He trained them to jump beneath tanks and detonate Bombs in Ruff-Sacks strapped to their backs ... very high tech!
As for Treaty of Versailles and its effects on the German economy: Yes, it was a catasrophe ... but the German people were willing to, and did, abide by this until either Russia or Holland (?) breeched it by refusing to simply load a German ship with pre-regulated supplies .... which started WW2!
And if your really honest, David ... you'll tell them all how it was British angencies whom underestimated German resolve while masterminding this Versailles breech! The same way Winston C dragged The Americans into the war by setting up the Japanese with propaganda that preempted them to strike at Pearl Harbour first!
Fatalky ... If you think yours or The U.S. military can wipe out Arabia with nuclear weapons ... then by all means, go ahead and try it!
You might get a few missles off. But I can promise you they won't hit the ground ... and whomever fire them will be vapourised before they can blink ... so be my guest, suck it and see ... I dare you too?
The new-aged weaponry out there are amazing ... American nuclear wepons will be like throwing dust at tanks!
You mob are in deep deep shit right now!!!!!
This is World War 3, but not by stealth nor proxy either! It's at a Mexican Stand-off stage right now ... but those dumb Yanks will get all gung-ho and flitch first ... then get blown away by China ... watch that one!
Then we are all next ... so who gives a flying f**k anyway as they can all go kiss my arse !!!
well of course, that explains it, why didn't I think of that. Perfectly plausible explanation, could have happened to anyone.
Must have been listening to the samba remix of "police stop!" on one of those new ipods that don't need any ear pieces and are just loose stripped wires.
... Pockets! of course, pockets, that makes loads of sense he went to a meeting in a big jacket because.. he didn't want to carry his rucksack because of all the bombings recently so he kept his notes and electrical equipment in his big pockets!
Who are these guys with the guns? never mind that I don't want to miss the tube I don't have a ticket for so I'll just leg it and jump over this turnstyle, it's probably nothing.
it all ties in now.
"As for Treaty of Versailles and its effects on the German economy: Yes, it was a catasrophe ... but the German people were willing to, and did, abide by this until either Russia or Holland (?) breeched it by refusing to simply load a German ship with pre-regulated supplies .... which started WW2!"
You may need to consult your history books on this one. WW2 was the culmination of a period of a sustained military expansion by the Nazi government.
Britain (and some others, I believe) declared war on Germany when German invaded Poland in 1939 having previously grimaced and tutted while they annexed Austria and the Sudeten and invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia in the the preceding years.
At the time the war started, Russia (the USSR) was actually on Germany's side and they initally planned to split Poland between them.
Not sure how you'd judge whether the German people were ever prepared to accept the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles. Their more moderate post-war governments didn't really have much choice. Obviously the knock-on effects of the Wall Street Crash in 1929 didn't help too much either, in terms of the economy.
Hitler was elected in 1933. It's fairly safe to say the people had more than had enough of the economic situation by then - unclear what the loading of ships had to do with it.
You miss the point completely, Ely ... as per usual!
Let's kill everyone who doesn't have white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, or a vacant look on their stupid face.
Now do you still need more information?
It makes me laugh that even after so much evidence of how this government works people still leap on their official statements as if they were the words of god :o) Good job they never lie or exaggerate then :o)
Let's see what the story is in a month or two when the the 'powers that be' are satisfied that most people have got used to the idea that innocent people might be shot by mistake and something closer to the truth starts to leak out.
Fascinating Tv Programme on last night which covered the role paranoia played in defeating Hitler and in misleading Stalin into thinking that Churchill and Hitler were working together. It makes you realise that God certainly does work in mysterious ways and how easily it could all have ended so differently!
You certainly wouldn't have wanted to work for Stalin - you were shot if you didn't do what you were told... and shot if you did.
You've taken a decision and are choosing to interpret a currently unclear set of facts and circumstances in order to support it.
"The man was leaving a house already listed as associated with bombers. what are the chances of that?"
It's a block of nine flats, so the chances of people other than the bombers living there are pretty big.
"He THEN decides, for no good reason, to wear a large thick jacket on a hot day."
He came from a hot country.
"it has been proven that anyone faced with a gun or a similar threat, regardless of guilt, will pretty much always freeze on the spot."
I'd like to see this proof because we've had several other mistaken identity shootings in recent years that suggest otherwise.
That said, I don't want to get into the for/against the police argument. I support the police as well but the police are not a political neutral public service disconnected from the government.
They carry out actions (mostly very bravely and competently) on the basis of political decisions.
Political decisions are taken about the level of evidence needed and the level of doubt allowed before the police shoot someone.
These decisions aren't taken by individual police officers on the spot and it's not an insult to these officers to want an explanation for the orders they're being asked to follow beyond 'terrorists want to kill people'.
I know terrorists want to kill people. Last Thursday they tried to blow up my local tube station, two weeks before my business partner was on one of the trains they did blow up (though, luckily he's physically okay).
I'm very scared but I don't think myself or anyone else in London will be made safer by a blind acceptance that the people in power know best.
Jasper:
of course I do but your use of the word 'more' implies that there was some information there to start with. You are as ever, a prick.
Smiley:
what makes me laugh is how many people would rather believe we live in some kind of power crazy big brother conspiricy than real life. what about all the evidence of the normal stuff that goes on in politics? Or is the world of government just one big corrupt fuck up after another, every day with nothing in between?
David:
finally, someone sane to discuss things with.
The address of how many other blocks of nine flats were found on a bomb? There are many many many places to live in london. The chances of your address being found in a bomb are still very slim.
He was from a hot country? Yeah I know, so? does that suddenly give him a need for big jackets in the middle of summer? I've just been talking with some friends from Pakistan, it's boiling out there and guess what they don't have in their wardrobe?
"we've had several other mistaken identity shootings in recent years that suggest otherwise"
I'm aware of some of the cases in question. In reports where people have been shot my mistake there are usually circumstances that take them out any relative comparison to this situation.
People have been shot because, when warned, they refuse to 'cease and desist'. Usually the people in question are under the unfluence of drugs or alcohol or suffering some form of mental distress.
In cases where the victim is a total mistake, the shots are usually fired from distance and the 'weapon' turns out to be a remote control or a lump of wood seen through curtains or a car windscreen. The most recent case I can think of is a man shot going the wrong way down a motorway while pissed up and carrying an object, he ignored warnings and was killed.
Then man shot in the tube was sober, had a clear understanding of English, suffered no mental issues and was in clear view of everyone the day after some attempted bombings.
As for proof, next time someone points a gun at you and shouts 'stop!', you just see if you can run.
finally, as for the insult to the police I'd appreciate it if you could quote me in context. I said it was an insult to suggest that the policy is now to 'shoot anyone who runs away' or, as some other dickless wonder just said,
"Let's kill everyone who doesn't have white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, or a vacant look on their stupid face."
This is making light of a very difficult job that someone has to do. I fully agree that accountability and command need to be focussed n and controlled but to accuse the police of running round like a bunch of trigger happy 'paki bashers' is just wrong.
does that suddenly give him a need for big jackets in the middle of summer?
I don't think a choice of clothing in summer warrants grounds for being pumped full of lead. Also the Weather had stated to cool off in London by Friday. I myself was in a jumper. thankfully I'm still alive!
My question is he was tailed for 27 minutes from his home to the tube. I don't believe police were not able to bring him down, non-fataly before he got on the bus.
“I want to show the people [the police] could have stopped him before he took the bus,” (cousin) Alex Pereira said.
"As he waited at a nearby bus stop the reconnaissance team sought urgent instructions on whether to challenge him right away or let him board a bus. They were worried about the dark, bulky, padded jacket he had zipped up on such a muggy morning.
The decision was taken to let him go, in the hope that he might lead his shadows to at least one of the bombers.
The bus journey was slow, as on any other Friday morning, but Mr Menezes seemed to be in no hurry. He was heading to Willesden Green to fix an alarm system. When it was obvious that he was getting off at the stop nearest Stockwell Tube station, the team on the bus alerted a three-man team of marksmen to move in. "
"I don't think a choice of clothing in summer warrants grounds for being pumped full of lead"
And neither do I jude as you well know but, again, it wasn't JUST that. That was one of several 'coincidences' that gave rise to the suspicion. But people love, for reasons unknown to me, to use statements like that to make the situation looks simple and the actions of the police, therefore, all the more attrocious.
Do you think he was shot for wearing a jacket Jude?
No, of course you don't so please don't say it like you do.
As for when they should have intercepted him then I agree entirely the decidion could have been taken earlier and those who make these decisions need to be accountable.
no of course not,
I just think the co-incidences weren't enough even together to KILL him at point blank range.
The mistake was to let him wander off in the hope he might lead to a bomber. If he was just a suspect they should have apprehended him earlier and avoided the tragedy
Alarmed onlookers said they saw up to 10 plain-clothed officers chasing an Asian-looking man before opening fire.
Reports said the suspect was pushed to the ground and shot five times at close range.
that does NOT sound good
"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."
Of course this is just an eyewitness account but should it be true I would be severely unimpressed.
That sounds very frightening indeed. I hope to god they were right.
WHen I ran language schools we used to make all the students wear backpacks with the school logo on them at all times so that we could identify them easily when out and about (so could the town louts but we won't go in to that). It would make life much easier if these folks did the same. Or perhaps we could all do it. I would have one that says "slightly sicky smelling bampot".
well I believe they felt another bombing was imminent and if he'd led them to another bomber then it could have saved many lives. Detaining him would have just cut him out of the loop and the bombers would still be anonymous until their work was done.
It's all just pie int he sky now because the reality of it has proven to be something different but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
It's wierd how life moves so quickly isn't it. The day before yesterday the idea of police shooting a man dead on a train would have been preposterous. Now it's simply alarming. I really really hope nobody caught it on video phone.
Ahhh, yes, sorry... it was Poland whom refused to load the cargo and killed two German Officials in the process ...thank you, David! Which is exactly why Germany declared war on Poland! But I'm also supposing here that you are well aware of the Polish Congo (instigated and administered by a few British persons, whom were Jewish btw) which decimated 10 million innocent lives ... Germany feared something like this might be its intended destiny also!
But then it was not the military which Germany was expanding at that time. It was moreso Germany's quickly advancing technological potential for weapons manufacture (potentia onlyl) which got the morganatic British nose out of joint ... just like it has with China and Iran at this present moment, hey!
It's your own hysteria which starts Wars, David ... not the other's! Mind you though, history is written by the winner of wars ...which clearly defines that furpie called justice as having nothing to do with the truth whatsoever! And no wins a War ... there is only loss!
Opinions are wonderful things are they not?
The suspect was believed to have jumped the ticket barrier during the pursuit.
London Underground have released the following statement,
"Please ensure you have a valid ticket for your entire journey on London Undeground..."
i thought it was odd (the jumping on him and shooting him thing), but, if they were concerned he had a detonator, maybe they thought it prudent. Lord knows.
it has been said, today, that the man shot was being followed as one of yesterdays would-be bombers.
We need to be so careful here because we're in a situation where if a man with a bomb makes it onto a train and explodes it in a tunnel then we've got possibly hundreds dead and decisions lasting lifetimes only have moments to be made.
the stop and search idea will only create (as said on radio 2 earlier) two queues at every tube station. One of happy white people and one of exremely pissed off black and asian people. we'd be creating a recruiting station for terrorists in every street in London. Besides which they will sinply find ways to get white female bombers to take their deadly cargo through unnoticed.
funnily enough, that joke link to the see through rucksack isn't such a bad idea. surely it's only the fact that you can't see what's in someone's bag that makes it suspicious. People should start carrying their stuff round in clear bags. It'll cost them a little privacy but help keep the queues moving. If everyone started it then the bombers would need some other way to get stuff on board and it'd leave them less scope for bulky homemade bombs.
One would think...given the current situation with the London subway system, that people would be intelligent enough to not carry a rucksack. Maybe a grocery bag would be a suitable alternative or something. A small laundry bag , one of those fishnet types with the pullstring, so's not to alarm the observers.
Well, less than a month later and news already leaking out suggests we 'must live in some kind of power crazy big brother conspiricy.' after all Ely :o)
CCTV footage and eyewitness accounts showed he was not wearing a padded jacket (which could have concealed a bomb) and that he calmly walked through the station, even stopping to collect a free newspaper.
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