Hmm

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Hmm

Hmm – I’m beginning to think that I have completely misunderstood what this site is about. I took this site to be an ‘interactive creative-writing’ site where people could predominantly exchange experiences and perceptions (and formal techniques) in a supportive and caring environment. It is, after all, called ‘ABC TALES’. But, I’m beginning to wonder if I may have made an incorrect assumption here and that the site is, in fact, predominantly a ‘literacy-training’ site or, indeed perhaps, a ‘grammar-training’ site or, indeed perhaps, a ‘rap-on-the-knuckles’ site. (And no, I don’t know if that should be ‘wrap’ or ‘rap’, and I can’t be bothered to look in the dictionary right now. lol)

I also find myself wondering whether grammar and ‘flow’ are always in harmony with each other, and I wonder if (1) linguistic correctness and (2) seeking one’s voice and theme, necessarily, are two things that one should attempt in tandem. And anyway, when it comes to publication, there are no end of editors who can handle that stuff very proficiently, if the publisher decides they want a ‘standardised’ text – in my experience, they don’t always for fear of actually alienating their target market.

Also, in my view, there is not one grammar of English, or of any language – every individual has their own ‘grammar’; the beauty of any single language is that it is able to be a collection of millions and millions of mutually intelligible, individual grammars. Also, it’s a moot point, in my view, where grammar ends and idiolect (and, for that matter style) begins. A seemingly quirky or unusual idiolect or style is not, of itself, wrong – it is just a slightly subtler challenge for the ‘punctuationist’ than a more essentially conformist style of language use. And, there is the whole question of regional variation of language use, particularly with a language like English that is spread over so many different continents and a sub-continent or two. (There is an interesting and thought-provoking book in this area called ‘World EnglishES’, published by C.U.P.)

I have this feeling, in part from studying some of the discussions on this site, that the ideas of grammar and literacy are often confused. I think they need to be kept distinct. For example, if someone were to SAY 'your write' to mean 'you're right', then, in terms of auditory decoding, that would be correct grammar. But if someone were to WRITE 'your write' to mean 'you're right', would that then be incorrect grammar? - I'm beginning to think that, no, it wouldn't - it would simply be incorrect literacy (within specific regional or social norms of acceptability), in that it would only reflect a relative lack of awareness of , or more probably an interest in, how the underlying grammar is expressed in a particular regional-standard graphology and punctuation system.

If my thinking in any, or all, of these areas is nonsensical, then I wait – no, I genuinely do – wait to be enlightened. Maybe, mine is something of an extreme position, and I am happy to accept that view. However, in my view, what I might style an over-rigid position on linguistic correctness militates against what I feel works creatively and in terms of the enablement of self-expression and self-individuation. I haven’t expressed that very well (I know), but those final two issues are , for me, vastly more important, certainly within a creative-writing context (as opposed to an academic, or negotiatory or professional context), than any ‘Academie Anglaise’ absolutes of grammatical correctness. Surely, within a CREATIVE process, one does not have to be negotiatory, nor culturally or linguistically conformed – your text is your truth and your right.

Mmm... I think that you are confusing two things. First of all there is the deliberate use of idiomatic language - and that, in my view, is entirely acceptable. That idiom can spread to spelling, grammar and flow. It can be wild and unique - but the key is that it is being used knowingly. Then there is just plain bad use of English. 'Your write' does not mean anything. It is plain wrong. That is a major differentiation and should be corrected. If, underneath all of this, you are sometimes disappointed in the standard of writing on here, and that is your real gripe, then I suggest that you stick to the 'cherry picked' pieces - although you will miss some very original and idiomatic pieces if you do. We welcome all writers, regardless of their standard. By writing, our members (a) get better, (b) learn to communicate effectively and (c) gain confidence - and that's great for everyone! I think that you can nit-pick too easily. We do not subscribe to the 'elitist' view of English Literature - but we will always try and help writers to improve. We're not always right in our suggestions but we do genuinely offer small pieces of advice from the position of assistance. English is not a 'pure' language but when it is used imaginatively it is a wonderful thing - and we encourage experiment and diversity at all times. Does that help or does it merely confuse the issue?
You are a tosspot. Is that correct English?
Well said tcook. I fully endorse your comments. Animan just needs to go back to basics. tcook correctly points out : "It can be wild and unique - but the key is that it is being used knowingly." Write will never be right!
How will you ever know if the writer is using it knowingly or not, there are good points on both sides here, having had a look at the site and having viewed lots of different styles of poetry, I am not sure abc does encourage wild and unique, but perhaps with some gentle encouragement, it might nudge forward a little bit at a time. I do prefer wild and unique to boring content stuck in stanzas, but everyone has different tastes, something which perhaps isn't always taken into consideration on this site, poetry is a very diverse creative form and some writers would actually say that you should use the language of today, but there again that is open to opinion, illustrating how diverse a craft poetry is, so we should encourage new ideas along with traditional, thereby giving everyone the encouragement they deserve.

Louise

Christine
Anonymous's picture
If you write write when you mean right or even rite for that matter, you are not right you are just plain wrong.
But I would rather read an interesting piece of work where the person has put rite wrongly than read a boring piece of work where they have spelt it right.

Louise

"To write the rites to right my wrongs" as an old (but never very fashionable) song goes ...

 

I think Tony put it very well. Wild and unique is absolutely descriptive as to much literature published here on the site. So I disagree with Louise 178. Also you can always get a pretty good picture of the author by his/her writings and can most certainly tell if they are using the language knowingly by reading between the lines and getting a notion as to who is wrting what and what is written by whom. Stick around for quite a while and get to know everyone, newcomers as well and you can read their style.It is truly invigorating- By the way I think you can say "your write" as what you have written i.e your piece- sort of slang maybe. . language is liquid. Just comes pouring out for some ;) xx Pia
Just wanted to say ‘thank you’. Really interesting comments. A lot for me to mull. Also, don’t get me wrong. I’m a great believer in this site – one of the very, very few genuinely worthwhile and predominantly beneficent interactive sites around, in my humble opinion. I just can’t begin to imagine how many lives (inc. mine) that this site has, no doubt, saved from some form of collapse or another, directly and/or indirectly and, even perhaps, repeatedly ... ;) P.S. Can I add that the so-called ‘literacy-challenged’ tend, in my experience, to write the best discourse – the most moving and challenging and engaging ... discourse that I always learn from and try to emulate (actually, usually quite unsuccessfully). Somehow, when the literacy is ‘perfect’, the ‘heart’ can seem to get lost a little, the authenticity, the ‘chromaticism’, that extra meaning and resonance from an apparent mis-spelling, for example ... in my view ... just my view. I tend to see natural, impassioned even, discourse and formal ‘correctness’ as two horses pulling a troika – fast! – you’ve got to let both of them have their head and let them snarl at each other evenly but, ultimately, you hold the reins. The ‘yin’ and the ‘yang’ and the ‘author’ of every piece of creative writing - but not a model for the rest of life. Maybe, that was Tony’s original point – can’t remember now. P.P.S. It seems to me that sites such as this one carry a huge burden of responsibility, in that they have become a key way in which people (and particularly creative and preternaturally questioning people – brave people in other words) receive some part of their life-long education. Many people also can use sites such as this one to assert (or, at least, to test out) some of their own individuality in a broader context, for good or ill. In a way, this is the ‘new publishing’ and, more and more, will very possibly sideline certain areas of the traditional media. I do feel that sites such as this one are becoming the crucibles of the future, the hives in which key elements of the future are being created. Our children’s lives and our children’s children’s lives will very probably be, to some degree, defined by the current and future group-dynamic of the interactive networks. That’s quite a burden of mutual and collective responsibility; but, the more positively it can be faced, then the more positive and beneficent will be the intellectual and emotional ‘capital’ that interactive sites can nurture into existence, to the benefit of everyone’s future. That may be innocent naivety on my part, but it feels a more hopeful suggestion than simply opting for any, perhaps more ‘pragmatic’, path of jadedness, or pessimism or opting-out. To my mind, finding a discourse and dynamic that is robust, not harsh or bitchy, gentle, not wishy-washy, clever and authentic, not strategic and manipulative, pluralist or eclectic, not ‘uniformist’, challenging, not confrontational, questing, but not ‘wild’, reasonably cautious, but not ‘safe’, seems to be the current challenge in many areas of life. And, yes, even though I set these as goals for myself, I struggle to achieve much of this. I’m not being smug. Absolutely not.

 

Not smug but you sure have a way with words. Thanks for the mighty fine ellaboration. Truly there were quite a few words to look up in the dictionary. It's okay. I rather enjoyed reading the above ;)-enlightening and profound. pia
animan, where you having a bad day last Friday ?

 

Bad grammar often results in meanings being read that the writer doesn't mean, because readers read it differently. Of course, this works the other way when someone writes completely 'correctly' and the reader cannot read it the 'right' way because they do not have the same depth of understanding of how language works. (if that, in itself, makes sense!). I would always rather someone pointed out the errors for me so I don't continue to do things the wrong way, and I will always endeavour to help people to learn. Some people appreciate it and some don't like it, but then surely the point of a site like this is to develop as a writer and that requires some laying aside of the ego. I comment on a lot of work, and others don't... do you comment much, animan? J x

 

Yeah FTSE100 but I do prefer correct to colloquial when reading a long dialogue or even a story or better still , a poem. If the geek done fit a brass knob on de fing then let's hope he hit the right key!!
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