Form Poetry

I've studied haiku quite a bit in depth over the past year or so since I started writing. For me haiku should be simple in it's language, and use a seasonal word or a reference to nature. Ideally it should be connected to the elements in some way, but not in an overly verbose way.. it ussually contains three lines.. and the first line should contain a split- A haiku should at the same time with it's reference to nature- point to some deeper meaning to do with our lives or with life.. forming a duality. Working together, these two aspects of the haiku evoke mood and emotion in the reader. A haiku poet shouldn't comment on the connection though; but leave it for the reader to discover. Show but don't tell.. Words being like a bowl and what is left unsaid being like the space within the bowl. And like that old Taoist proverb: it's the space within a bowl which makes it useful. But without the shape of the bowl the space couldn't be useful.. so both are as important as the other.. and help to define each other. "Now the swinging bridge- Is quieted with creepers ... Like our tendrilled life." - Basho Something interesting to note about the 5-7-5 syllable format; from what I've studied some of the great Haiku poets like Issa, Buson and Basho hardly ever stuck to this syllable structure. I could be wrong here, but as far as I know none of them wrote in any set syllable format. They tended to use free-form: intuitively feeling for the rythm rather than sticking to a syllable structure. The only Japanese poem that really used the 5-7-5 syllable format was called Renga. Which was a collaborative poem: the first poet in Renga wrote the first verse in the 5-7-5 form, and each following poet had a different structure to follow thereafter. Though I could be wrong here.. so don't take what I say as fact.. as I've also read that when a haiku gets translated from Japanese to English it's hard to keep the original syllable format without spoiling the poem.. so Japanese haiku translated into English tends to have less than seventeen syllables.. and also a lot of great Japanese haiku poets stick to 5-7-5 and write about it being an important part of Haiku in their essays.. so I really don't know.. I think personally it doesn't matter what syllable format your haiku follows. Be it free-form or structured.. as long as it is like the bowl, simple but strong enough to say more in a few words than could be said in a hundred words. I like using the 5-7-5 format myself.. not always, sometimes I use less syllables.. but generally I find 5-7-5 a good sound rule to help guide me.. a bit like scaffolding I guess, that helps the builder.. it helps me have some kind of structure in mind in order to keep the rhythm together.. and it also helps me choose my words more carefully, which is what you're aiming for in haiku. I am dead fussy about a haiku having some kind of reference to the seasons or nature though.. from the essays written by Japanese poets about the haiku: the season-word or reference to nature is a principal ingredient of the haiku and was what helped to differentiate it from linked verse(renga) and gain independant stature in the first place, and it has remained an essential ingredient of Haiku ever since, in Japan anyway. Take away the season word or reference to nature; and it loses some of it's independence, that makes it the haiku. The argument from the West is: that a lot of people are city dwellers, so they are quite alien to the elements and the countryside.. and so find it quite hard to use a seasonal word or reference to nature in a meaningful way. I personally would like to see the seasonal word/reference to nature stay in the haiku.. without this it isn't a proper haiku for me.. the reference to nature makes it feel more sacred. A lot of Western city dwelling people who claim to be writing Haiku - are just lazy really.. they have parks they could go and sit in. They should take more time writing their haiku.. it should be more sacred than just any old three lined s.hite that pops into your head.. I'm sure they could find a haiku if they went and sat quietly in a city park for half an hour or so. And it would do their minds the world of good to do this as well. I think personally form is important.. it doesn't hurt to learn about form and structure.. as once you know the rules you can then break them properly.. and be more creative.. but it's best to learn the rules first before you do that. Learning in depth about form and tradition etc can help you understand the theory.. and so therefore help you write better haiku.. and once you understand the form.. you are free to be more creative; but any tree before it can grow needs good sound roots. A lot of people think haiku is easy.. and you just write any old thing that pops into your head and that's a haiku.. they are wrong. A haiku if done correctly.. will take you a fair bit of time to write, as you need to sit down and think carefully about your words.. you need to choose them carefully; drawing from some aspect of nature around you and weaving it into a duality that points to some deeper meaning/truth in life.. doing this is therapeutic I find and kind of like an exercise in mindfullness.. a kind of writing meditation. "Winter solitude- in a world of one colour the sound of wind." - Basho "Summer Grasses- All that remains Of soldiers dreams." - Basho Basho was the person who invented the haiku and Basho stands for: the poet of the banana tree hut. if you want to read more about Haiku, and learn how to write it.. then this site is wicked, you can follow some free on-line lessons here and tutorials that if you finish them you should be writing good Haiku.. is worth chercking out for anyone whose interested in learning how to write haiku: http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/index.htm this page is just a great long list of good Haiku links to other web-sites- more information than you'll ever need: http://www.execpc.com/~ohaus/haiklink.htm Sorry for the long post.. haiku is something I'm very interested in.. it is simple.. but perhaps one of the most beautiful kinds of writing on earth.

There's nothing, repeat nothing, I hate more on abc than haikus. Sorry for anyone who loves the form. I just don't have the type of brain that can read a poem and count syllables, and the form itself just seems pointless. Every now and then I come across one which (right number of syllables or not) seems to say something that is either beautiful or overcomes the horrible limitations of the form. I've learned in my time here to appreciate poetry, but I will never till the day I die think of haikus as anything other than a shackle on what the poet is really wanting to say. It goes beyond the usual trying to condense and put an orange into a shot glass metaphor about poetry, which I think can be a useful exercise and just seems to me either too limiting or too clever-clever look at me. And as for the other stuff, I'll leave it to Liana to judge whether a villanelle is correctly formulated, I judge on content and style, not format.

I love haikus, principally because of the themes Funky speaks about, rather than the construction. I think poets should be free to break away from, and play with form however they choose to. It might be an effective metaphor, for example, for a man's descent into chaos, if a poem started off in a very strict format, and gradually unwove itself til there was no structure at all, then the sentences don't make sense, then maybe even the words are nonsense. I gather then, Andrew, that you would not have picked 'Rhyme Damn You!' as a poem of the day?

I'm not a big fan of hiaku either, but maybe it makes more sense in Japanese. Seriously. As for form, sure it's ok to break the form, but then it's not the form, so don't pass it off as being on form. An almost-sonnet is an almost-sonnet, not a sonnet. It can still be very effective, but it's not a sonnet. I can remember studying rhyme in high school. Then we were supposed to write something in the correct pattern, or alternatively, read a sample poem and identify where it deviated from the form, if at all. I remember those as rather fun exercises, but nothing came of it. Back in the days when poetry was actually read by masses of people, all of this was a big deal. Nowadays, it's probably mentioned on the abc forum more than in the rest of the world combined. :))))

I think I did cherry Rhyme Damn You - but forgive me if not, I see a lot of pieces and I can't remember all of them. I'm not saying that I don't think form is important - more that I don't know enough about the academic side of poetry to know how rigidly someone is sticking to form and when someone is bending the rules for effect. And I'd guess Justyn was right - outside of university courses and places like this, most readers don't know either. My sole experience with syllables is that gesture Lionel Blair makes by laying a certain number of fingers on his biceps during Give us a Clue; my brain just doesn't work in a way where I can look at a piece and go 5-7-5 syllables. And I wonder actually what I would be supposed to do if I saw one haiku written in 5-7-5 that was quite good and one that was better but that was 5-7-6. I don't think I'd penalise the improperly formed one. Sonnets are a bit different - if you're setting out to write a sonnet rather than just a medium length poem then you do need to get the format right. I suppose what I'm saying Stormy is, because I can't stand the haiku form, the form itself doesn't win any points with me and I judge the thing as a poem. It's either a good poem or it's not, and more often than not, haiku are just bad poems because they don't have room to say anything of charm or consequence. Sonnets seem to me to have a purpose and a grace about them, and the form can actually work in the writers favour like for example a prose writer limiting themselves to 1000 words, whereas haiku are much more like a prose writer limiting themselves to sentences of no more than 30 letters. Very nice, very clever, but what's the point? It's hard enough in writing to express what you want, without boxing yourself into a corner.

I think the comment about haiku only really working in Japanese is probably write. I've written flippant one, one of which was published in a fairly well-known magazine but one the whole I think we're better off leaving them to Basho. I think different forms and structures, if used well, are very impressive. Dylan Thomas's 'Do not gently into that good night' is great poem and, I think, a perfect villanelle but most villanelle's I've read on serious subjects are awful. The problem with form and for that matter rhyme is that doing it well is very time consuming. Lots of people use limericks, sonnets, rhyming couplets etc as an template for write bad poetry in a short space of time while feeling very clever about doing it. I generally stick to free verse because it's easier to do well.

wow! Brilliant replies so far. Andrew, the cherrypicking aspect of my post was probably the least part. I just mentioned it to back up my question of whether form is important or not. Way before you were an editor I came across an abc piece that contained many Clerihews. It was cherrypicked and 'some' of the clerihews were funny. Most, however, were not and also failed to meet the form criteria of a clerihew. So why was this piece picked out as the best of abctales? The form was wrong, the satire missed by a mile in places. But it obviously worked for some one and we get back to where I came in. I do take the points people here have made about breaking from the form, especially henstoats, but I still think only the very accomplished poets can pull it off successfully. I think many amatuers break the form unknowingly, more often through ignorance, because they have not understood or researched the form in question. Haiku seems to be the trendy form of the moment which perhaps explains why there is an abundance of poorly written ones out there. Funky's excellent post on the haiku shows that he has looked into and understood the meaning of an haiku. This should make his own haikus better than those who have not done so. However, I also understand haiku form can drift away from the original concept and can be used for humour, for example. But, it should still follow the 5,7,5 concept. If it doesn't, as justyn says, it ain't a haiku so why call it one? I happen to prefer writing free verse myself, for the reasons David outlines above, but I also like to read form poetry when done well. Unfortunately this is rare on the internet. Somebody posted about rhymes a while ago. The essence of the post was 'poets' using a word or sentence to make a rhyme despite the fact the it added nothing to the work. This happens often and is probably the reason for me taking so long to 'get into' poetry. It is only now that I have studied these forms - as well as free verse - that I am beginning to admire the art. The downside is that I am becoming increasingly intolerant of poorly written poetry. I cringe at some of my early stuff but at least I know they scanned where intended. I have only written one villanelle and, upon reading it again tonight, have found an error in two lines (both one syllable short) but at least it follows the prescribed form which many so called villanelles do not. Form is very difficult, but that is the art. Writing something that makes the reader say WOW and yet staying within tight parameters is a great skill. *** A Literary Riddle I am Out of my tree Away with the fairies A nut. A fruitcake. What am I? Answer: One line short of a cinquain. (Roger McGough)

On the 5-7-5 matter, Stormy: having read the page Funky directed us to, I've found that although the original Japanese form had a 5-7-5, or sometimes 3-5-3 rule, to translate it directly to English means losing some of the main characteristics of the haiku. The Japanese do not stress their syllables like we do, and often when Japanese haikus are read out the middle line is the same length as the first and third. There is debate over how best the theme and effect of haikus translates into English. I'm of the opinion that the syllable count shouldn't matter, since its impossible to translate exactly into English a rule that applies to Japanese. The principle of the haiku is far more important to me - that the words serve as a kind of 'bowl' - that what is of greatest importance is what is NOT said, rather than what is said. More than any other poetic discipline, it forces the poet to choose their words with the utmost care and to leave the main space of the poem to be filled by the reader's imagination.

I got interested in haiku I wondered why the translations did not conform to any syllabic count. Remember the original 'haikai' were long poems conforming to the 17-syllable 5-7-5 scheme for each verse - BUT they were written in ideographs, and therefore had an artistic/visual element as well. At the start of a 'haikai' was a first (or establishing) verse called a 'hokku' Eventually, these developed a life of their own, and became independently valid. The history of haiku begins in 1890 when Masaoka Shiki established the term 'haiku' for the independent use of the hokku. Original hokku's are sometimes termed as 'classic haiku' and haiku's independent of haikai, as 'modern haiku' When written in roman script, either the first or the second line ends normally with a colon, long dash or ellipsis. Each Haiku must contain a kigo, a season word, which indicate in which season the Haiku is set. For example, cherry blossoms indicate spring, snow indicate winter, and mosquitoes indicate summer, but the season word isn't always that obvious. However, as japanese words have, in general, far more syllables than english words, one modern opinion says that the syllabic count of 11 syllables in english (3-5-3) is equivalent to the 'meaning' in a Japanese haiku, and some modern roman-script poets favour this form. You will see that, in roman script, the art has been lost, so many haiku are presented within 'haiga' - an artistic picture relavant to the 'haiku' That is what I have learnt. Hope it helps you! as with many things taken up by the west, . most of what you see presented as 'haiku' bears little relation to the name! cheers, e-griff

Good points but, as much as I did not want this thread to become a 'form against free verse' thread I want it to be about all forms and not just haiku. The fact that henstoat and egriff can discuss haiku shows they know the subject or have researched into it - as I did many months ago - and presumeably will not write a four line or two line haiku as a result. unfortunately I have seen haikus with neither of the syllable counts you mention and with the lines I mention. I like your point about choosing words with utmost care henstoat but this then begs the question 'why are there so many crap haikus out there?' Is it because web poets have failed to understand the basics? Have they come across a bad haiku themselves and thought 'yes! i can write 3 (or 4) lines better than that' before proceeding to massacre the form with a birthday card poem? I am yet to be persuaded that a form poem that fails the basic criteria of the form can be feted. If you have great words within you it seems to me they will be accepted as good poetry now matter how you present them on the page. But, why choose to do it in 'form' style if you cannot count syllables or even understand the premise of the form.

You have to remember also, Stormy, that good poetry is a subjective thing, and even these crap haikus may be seen as very good by someone. In fact, I have no doubt that for someone who doesn't particularly care for words, ANY haiku is a load of crap - "It doesn't say anything!" or some such. But I can picture what you mean by crap haikus, and I doubt I'd disagree with you on the adjective. The reason they emerge, I think, is because most people now are taught about haiku in school (I was,) but very briefly. Children are encouraged to write them because they are very simple, and make for a good aspect of an English lesson on poetic form. Later, in adult life, they remember what they were taught, maybe disregard the syllable count because haikus they've seen since them don't conform to it. They don't know the history very well, but they write in what they deem to be a haiku form because they find it appealing to do so. The result of their efforts may not be pleasing to you or I, but if it's a positive experience for them, they have every right to get on with it. They may be ignorant in calling what they produce haikus, but I don't think you'll ever change that ignorance on a greater scale, and in a way it takes something away from them to do it. Like maybe to tell someone they haven't written a novel, not a novella, after they've proudly proclaimed themselves a novelist. It'll take the air out of an arrogant person, but wound a less confident one. The beauty of constrictive form is that it *is* a test of skill to write something competent and impressive that sticks to it. In a day and age where so many people are free enough, literate enough and (in some cases!) bored enough to have a crack at becoming a 'writer,' we are to expect a mountain of pieces of work to emerge. The masses that won't appeal to you make the few that do even more holy, and even more your own, as should be the case with all these half-assed haikus.

good topic. i've never tried a villanelle before. i shall write one this very evening. *throws down gauntlet* i have 3 guineas here that says mine will be the finest villanelle on the site.

*Throws down hat* I've already written one, I think. It was based on the rules for the villanelle given in a single lecture, so I concede that I may have gone wrong. Mine is called 'When I am carried across the moor' and is in 'Poems & Extracts from Manley & I'

I think you will find a certain poodle of this parish has already done it, Chant.

I'll try a villanelle - with strawberries, I think! Yes, but I've written a Paradel!

Stormy, I know you are trying to make a serious point while seagulls swirl around you. My gut is to agree with you - rules are rules - if you don't like them, do something else. Stick to the form, KNOW the form, and hone your skills - it is fine art. the reason why people write crap haikus is because they don't know what a real haiku is. (Thet's what set me off to find out about three weeks ago - it only took me 20 mins on the web to get the truth) doesn't mean I can write haikus, but at least I'm closer than many who have claimed to write them In a contradictory way , however, breaking the rules can create a counterpoint, a contrast, a surprise. I was just writing a poem with regular lines, and I thought , hell, stop that one short and pull 'em up so they don't get too comfortable. I think it works if its a small divergence. remember the haiku itself owes its existence to breaking the haikai rules and separating the hokku! But I agree about the 'birthday card rhymes' that people call haiku. This may be a stretch of the imagination, but I have faced similar events in many situations (oh, guitars out of tune? never mind, just play) I was doing a physics experiment, and went to the prof - 'this 'ere bit' I declared, introduces innacuracy - I can't do it with this apparatus. "Ah!" guilty look, well, look, just do it for the excercise - we'll take it into account. 'Bugger that', I thought, got some stuff and rebuilt the faulty bit. It's the people who say,'stop being so picky and just get on with it'. There comes a point where there's NOTHING to get on with that's worthwhile - jobsworths and carers/professionals! So the 'just do the Haiku/form poem and never mind it isn't really ' view I heartily reject.

Here's my paradel:- It is a very simple one, but obeys the rules. Paradel It was a fish! It was. A fish! Away! I swam silver Away I swam, silver A silver fish swam away. It was I The sea singing The sea, singing Sang wet Sang! Wet. The wet singing sea, Sang! The dark. Shape! The dark shape Glides mighty Glides. Mighty! Dark, a mighty shape glides I was a shape - fish! Swam wet. Sang the dark singing! The mighty silver sea, it glides away.

what's your vill.. called, Stormy? and what meter did you employ? the iambic pentameter?

chant, I was inspired to start this thread because I am trying to rewrite my form poems at the moment. You might have seen them before. I wanted each to stand in its own right but put them into one piece called thoughts that count... an amusing look at remembering your anniversary using form poems linked by the odd line of prose. I originally thought all the pieces had worked but spotted the villanell error soon after posting it. I did struggle with the iambic pentameter and although I ahave the syllables right (apart from those two evil lines) I am not sure I have the iambic correct. Some-one else told me a possible weak spot is in the links betwen the poems so I have started to tighten the whole think up. What I really set out to do was try some form poems using an humerous style but also sticking rigidly to the ideas behind the form structure. so my haku should contain references to nature and its relationship to man as well as my relationship with my wife. I've written myself into a corner at the moment and have decided to put it down until after my holiday. In the meantime any comments either here or by e-mail will be very welcome. In fact you can put them here. Let's shred by attempts at form in public. Everyone including me might gain from the exercise. Just realised have not got a link handy for my poem. I'll post this then go get one. e-griff, I remember looking into paradel's when you mentioned it but became distracted on another thread. I didn't like the idea enough to have a try though and it seems there is little of it about apart from one's by the guy who started it all off - I forget his name.

any chance you could post the vill.. here, Storms, as i can't enter your piece while at work - seems to have a 15 rating, and, as the site's rejecting my screen name, i can only view stuff that's suitable for kids?

It’s the thought that counts she once said as another ill suited present was sent packing so this year I did some thinking and counted on my poetry winning her over I sent her this: Lover Finger painted your lips with Unscrewed warm oils, Chemistry and art coming together, Karma and kama, sutured You, motionless for a second, Offered me your canvas again. Under moonlit skies I applied the finishing strokes. She sent it back. Not my fault she spotted an unintentional acrostic. I tried Haiku Our Love faithful, deep and true one score of rings protect us strong boughs flex in storms she sent it back having added two seven syllable lines - as is traditional you can forget all the past if you forget my presents “Did you like that, Tanka?” she asked (I forgave her the typo) I nearly replied in Haiku again but the lesser spotted Renga is a dangerous beast for apprentice poets I sent a sonnet; fourteen lines of love in a Petrarchan rhyming scheme. she replied in a succinct cinquain Only One Shopping Day Left! (She titled it) Now look, abba, abba ain’t music to my ears. get a life you arty farty tosser Right. That did it. I resorted to the trusty Villanelle. Guaranteed to get the message across. Eternal Rejection Slip I love you for eternity I always have and always will Why do you keep rejecting me? You did not vow to obey me Though other words I cherish still I love you for eternity Physically and mentally You give me such a thrill Why do you keep rejecting me? On each anniversary The presents become harder still I love you for eternity A wardrobe of red lingerie Peep-hole bras and knickers with frills Why do you keep rejecting me? So now I try with poetry Thoughts that count, word presents, no ills I love you for eternity Why do you keep rejecting me? Almost immediately I received a Kenning in return. It said: STORMY PETREL Bed clothes hogger Cliché writer Meal burner Inappropriate gift buyer Hopeless @!#$ Forgetful bastard My soon to be EX (if I do not get a decent present!) Clearly it was not going to work. I needed an instant gift. I made some phone calls and arranged for a delivery at her work. I sent her a fax. Clerihew Mrs stormy petrel Thought she wasn’t tret well The cement mixer (with a red bow) arrived for our anniversary Dumped it’s load as she read “How’s that for concrete poetry?” There has been no reply.

aha. ta very much. H's vill..'s not in iambics, i notice, and yours isn't either. challenge you both to write a vill... in iambic pentameters on a serious theme. Dylan Thomas's 'Do not go gentle into that good night' to set the standard.

Here is a villanelle by PoetryPoodle. How does it fare? I can't decide which one I'd rather lose I think so hard I get a cranial bleed It's poetry or you - I have to choose. I might have thought you'd turn into a muse The opposite is true I now concede. I can't decide which one I'd rather lose. I'm used to fags, unhappiness and booze A misery transferred to those who read. It's poetry or you - I have to choose. There's nothing in this romance I can use How can my gloomy verses now proceed? I can't decide which one I'd rather lose. I think you came along just to confuse and though I'm very fond of you indeed It's poetry or you - I have to choose. I must elicit other people's views a toss up: love or verse is what i need I can't decide which one I'd rather lose. It's poetry or you - I have to choose. (can't pretend it could take on Dylan Thomas but then poodle is only a dog)

I have tried the villanelle as promised. all I've found out so far is that it is bloody difficult. First, you got to choose the main rhyme with lots of options. Dylan chose night - how flexible do you need,? what a wise man! I started one and found I couldn't think of any rhymes!!!! the one above is successful I think, not just in the technicality (which can often swamp you) but in the meaning and 'fitness' which is the important bit. so you don't think ah a villanelle. you think - that's a bloody good poem! oh paradel. I don't claim very much value for mine. they do have a haunting quality when well written. there was a competition on R4 - the winner WAS good!

chant, that wasn't me who posted my poem. Thunderstorms and power cuts (5 this afternoon) have prevented me using my pc let alone getting on line since lunchtime. You can't simply say it isn't in 'iambics' because much of it is. I was wrong about the pentameter part (I get muddled - my english education stopped at 'o' level nearly 30 yrs ago) it was supposed to be written in iambic tetrameters ie a line consisting of 4 iambs. According to the villanelle guide I read, it said this form was best if you want to increase the pace and use humour. ' I love you for eternity' is, I think, a perfect iambic tetrameter as is 'why do you keep rejecting me?', the two lines that hold the poem together, as are a few others in the poem. The other lines do, however, leave much to be desired - hence my rewrite. I might still not get it right if I can't find the words to keep my meaning. I'd rather drop an iamb than do that. I'm not sure I want to write a deadly serious villanelle in the style of Thomas. It does not suit my unclassic education nor my humour and own style of writing. Eddies published 'Liverpool Villanelle' is in tetrameters but he breaks the rule of using 5 tercets and a final quatrain by using seven tercets before the quatrain. I have seen other published villanelles that are not iambic at all but are still very good. However, they all comply with the basic villanelle rhyming scheme of A1bA2 abA1 abA2 abA1 abA2 abA1A2 whereas in some of the ones I have seen, and perhaps this is what my first post was about, the author has failed to grasp this basic tenet of the poem's form let alone get down to the nitty gritty of iambs.

aha. who's your agent? yeah, sorry, Storms, i meant yours and H's weren't in pentameters. the gauntlet's still down for a serious vill.. in pentameters though!

and what's the form for paradels, E-Griff? i can't find a site on the net that will tell me.

My hat is still on the floor right next to your gauntlet, Chantyboy, and my mind is on it even as I validate invoices.

I love writing villanelle's. Difficult but rewarding. I don't write too many of them. I wrote 'Tangerine Laundry' and I believe 'She Knows Not Why' is also a villanelle. I have some odd aversion to haiku. I just can not seem to write one that is in any way good. For the best, I'm sure. ;o)

chant, the paradel is a hoax form started by billy collins the USA poet laureate last year. I managed to find many billy collins' sites but none that mentioned a paradel. Odd, because I found one last time I searched. I did, however, discover that a paradel is also a type of apple pudding. difficult is entirely correct lisa :-)

It was a hoax form originally (maybe a bit like a haiku, eh?) started by Billy Collins, yes. But he is a poet. therefore it has merit. I heard the winner on R4 - it was a haunting, effective piece! I did explain on abc threads many months ago. Chant, I will find a link for the fomat. I can only say its bloody difficult if you go beyond a few words per line!

Well, I've done Chant's villanelle challenge. It has been added to my 'Hats Off, Duo' collection and is titled as follows: I can't afford you kindness as of late I'm very pleased with it, as it's a condensed form of a rather overlong and ambling poem that I'd been scrawling for hours before. Now, onto my next challenge - Trimtin's mystery story set in the Bastille, starring a male priest and concerning transgression.

thanks, Stormy and E-Griff, for your help on paradels. is much appreciated.