my heart goes out to..

... and another thing, how the hell do people like this get together to act out murders on kids? hindley/brady etc. I mean, I cant get a handle on it at all. what, are they laying in bed, post coital, and one says to the other, 'Hey, I've got a great idea..' etc i would be outta there so fast id scorch the doorway. *baffled*

Having at last finished and posted to you Henstoat I was amazed how many had posted since then but shouldn't have I suppose as I am so incrediblly slow at getting my words down not that it seems to matter much, but at least I got a reaction from you which is a rareity for me so some good came out of it...

I think Missi's talking about me, among others. I would suggest that in order to merit getting an intelligent reply, he has to first write an intelligent post. But here's a free starter: First of all, I'm not a fan of blatant hypocrisy. You have a problem with people who "think they know the answer to everything," and in the next sentence imply that you yourself have "enough experience to know what's best." You claim to be annoyed by people who force their views on others, yet no one on this board snorts at and derides other people's suggestions more consistently than you. Just in this latest post you bang on about "uninformed rubbish" and "smartarse students." You listed among what you're crap at "being patient with tossers," yet by every definition of 'tosser' you seem to subscribe to, no one fits the bill better than you. I never suggested that advocating a 'change' in society would reduce the numbers. That's your own inference. And I don't claim to know better than everyone else - like everyone else, however, I'm dissatisfied with how things are done at the moment, and would like certain changes to take place in order to make the country safer. My suggestion is that changes have to begin with you and your immediate environment - if your idea of improving society is sitting at home calling far off people tossers and smartarses, then I would *suggest* you need to rethink your strategy. You know what pisses me off? Arrogant old men who think citing their age immediately proves their intellectual superiority over other people. I've heard this 'wet behind the ears' nonsense before, and this isn't the first time it's been used to compensate for the absence of a coherent argument. I shall now ignore you completely *excepting* the worthwhile points you make.

Thanks, Jay - and I agree with you. I didn't find you harsh - just wanted to explain myself more clearly.

What can we do - we can pressurise the government to give more comprehensive and supportive psychiatric care. Sick people end up doing sick things and that's why they attract each other. It's too easy to say shoot them did anyone say help them when they were kids or teenagers.No they were probably disruptive and difficult and shunted out to fester. I worked in art therapy at a child guidance clinic in the 90s. They were totally overbooked and deluged with referalls, in a quite pleasant middle class area. Support in the early years should have grown but it didn't it was reduced. Just ask teacher's if they've any time to devote to the emotional requirements of kids. They'll piss themselves laughing. I know it doesn't make it any easier on Holly and Jessica's parents and I'd feel so revengeful myself and want the perpetrators to suffer - but that's a normal reaction when someone's hurt your loved ones, but we, joe public, can't end up like baying hounds.

I so agree with you Mississippi my two children who are in their 3os they know it all and think even though we, who have lived it, still think what we say is crap but they will find once they are older its the other way around and feel just the same when they listen to their younger generation trying to teach them how to suck eggs, what gos around comes around as the saying gos, as I suppose we found to our cost but most times not all we were perpared to listen to our elders but now aday instead of being a mind of imformation because we have live it, we are just dodery old fools to most of the young. I sometimes wish I could be around to see how they feel about it all when it happens to them and it will. Not that as per usual I am expecting anyone to reply but don't tell me you won't feel the same as you won't be qualified to speak on the subject until you have, lived it...

that is very true. but when something is as emotive as this, it's very very hard for many people (inc. myself at times) to remain rational about it. Not playing any kind of parent card here, but it DOES change things when you have your own kids. Just look at Jays post, about how she is a mum and grandmum. It brings it home faster, and puts a whole different spin on it. I worked in the mental health industry for ten years, and i know all about how vicious circles in abuse work. but it doesnt stop people being horror stricken, does it? As we all keep saying, we dont know the answer. Doesnt stop us having opinions though, ALL of us...

post was in response to hovis.... posted at same time as jay. just occured to me, as i was taking some baked potatoes out of the oven... i burnt my hand on a rack, and yelled 'S.HIT!!!' at the top of my voice, and closed the door with a hefty kick, and several more swear words, how we definitely arent always rational when we are hurt and surprised... Gut reaction makes us behave in manners we dont usually..

Let me say that I don't think anyone is a fool just because they're old. On these kind of issues, I can quite happily discuss things with my parents and grandparents without getting into a blazing row about who is "naive" or "outdated," or any of that rubbish. I know very well they have different perspectives and experience, and I take their accounts as an invaluable source for my own opinions and ideas. And yes, older people are *generally* wiser than younger people. If I didn't pay attention to what older people said, it might well be that I'd cry, "Hang 'em." After all, what is there in *my* private experience to suggest that this isn't a perfectly acceptable solution? I don't have to give a damn about some child-killer, do I? My opinions, therefore, are formed from applying my own logic to the experiences of others, from deciding who of my 'teachers' (by which, I mean everyone whose words I have read or heard,) makes more sense, and appears to have the better intentions. I respect wisdom when it is presented, but age alone is *not* an automatic badge of authority. As far as I can see, Mississippi just feels good when he can get righteous with people. The fact that I'm a student just happens to be a good card to play. I say again that he is not the first gentleman I've encountered who extracts pride in his convictions from contempt and disapproval of other people.

i am not sure what changes in society could have prevented this crime ... i expect it was premeditated and those who are eventually charged for it - if guilty - will get a life sentence with a very hefty tariff ... i have often heard that there are no more cases of this type per year than there were in the 1950's - not sure if that is true but i do think these cases are rare ... probably nobody could have predicted these people would kill in this way ... and i doubt very much that these two who have been arrested would be on any kind of paedophile register - they certainly would not have had the jobs they have if they had been ... we have a society which glorifies murder in almost every way ... look at the popularity of t.v. programmes that deal with murders - fact and fiction - films - books ... the list goes on ... go to madame tussauds or have the jack the ripper experience ... why IS brutal murder glorified in this manner? ... why are people so interested? ... i believe that the majority of children murdered are killed by their own parents or close circle - where is the massive media circus when this happens? it is a shocking and sad story - i can't imagine how those parents must be feeling - as a parent the thought of this happening to my own kids makes me feel physically sick .... i don't have any answers about how to prevent this sort of thing happening any more than i could tell you how to prevent road deaths or child abuse or anything ... the best parents protect their kids and also allow them certain freedom and a way to become independent ... my kids go out with their mates ... all i can do is to warn them and make them aware of the dangers ... but what if the abductors are people in positions of trust that the children know?

I have nothing to declare except my empathy. Now if that upsets you, that's bloody tough. Where did I say that I was 'baying for blood' where did I mention anybody for the murders etc? Forgive me for being a human being who happens to feel for another human being. Now if that's wrong get on with it, for I will "Never Enter this site again". Well done henstoat and hovis for you have won and I am very sad that you have done what no other has been able to do. Goodbye all, for this site has deteriorated beyond belief, whereby you can't wish a family well, without the mindless and may I say gutless (behind the anonyminity of the computer) posters. my tears they flow as I must go I wish you well and time will tell was I right not to fight who will know as my tears did flow.

I didn't realise at first how close to us this was going on - Soham is a matter of mile from Milton, and as such it had a huge impact on me. You really do always think 'It could never happen to me, or anyone I know', until it happens on your doorstep. I cannot imagine what the families are going through, and I sincerely hope that this whole horrible mess is over as soon as possible, for their sakes.

Now that's just silly. You *know* your empathy didn't upset us - it was your insults. I don't know where you've got the "Never enter this site again" quote from either. Not my words. Neither are "baying for blood." Forgive me, but I feel coming out with these assertions that *we* laid into *you* for expressing grief is just another rhetorical device, it's so without basis. *You* were the one who attacked and insulted for no reason at all, using crass tactics to try to make us feel ashamed for our views, and you got your comeuppance. It has nothing at all to do with your expression of sympathy. As Andrew says, it should be taken as read that we all agree with you on that matter. And no, you may not say gutless.

Sorry aj - you can't go about accusing people and hurling abuse and then expect no response. I didn't accuse you of baying for blood and you know it, that was a general comment about 'joe public' mentality. It had nothing to do with your intial post. I thought your post was very sympathetic and thoughtful but the discussion had moved on from paying condolences. I was voicing an opinion that carried on with the development of the thread. I didn't actually move it off that line so what's the reason for homing in on myself. I was not personally attacking anyone but you did. You well and truly laid into me completely unjustified. And here goes, just to satisfy you. I actually paid my respects to the families in a more personal way. I didn't want to parade it publicly. You need to be a little more comprehensive with your thinking and less judgemental. And gutless/anonymity - where the hell's that coming from. My name's up there and my email. I've no desire to hide behind anything.

I think this one is going to be particularly difficult, perhaps more than any since the Bulger boys, purely because it seems at the moment that a woman may have played some part in it. Sick weird loners are something we can cope with, albeit with a wholly justifiable amount of revulsion; but the idea that someone could persuade a woman to go along with something involving pain and suffering to children is going to be very tough. I don't actually think the prevalence of sex abuse has gone up at all, the police are a little bit better at achieving successful prosecutions now. I'm not sure what legislation you can provide to prevent this attrocity in the future - I've had many talks with people about the drawbacks of "Sarah's law" - 1. that it tends to drive paedophiles underground rather than being where the police can find them when they are searching for abducted children, 2. that any list draws no distinction between USI (as someone said earlier, a man aged 19 having sex with his girlfriend aged 15 1/2 is a sex offender) and serious sexual assaults and 3. that most sexual offenders I've worked with have never been convicted and that therefore there's a risk that parents will view the list and think that those who aren't on it are safe. It's a dreadful thing and I can't even begin to think how the families must feel. What I would say is that attacking the person producing an argument rather than the argument is not a way to conduct a debate, and it happens all too frequently in these forums.

Tell me something With all the kind, brilliant people on this site how did we go from thinking about people in pain... to causing people to be in pain? my advice? Settle this privately guys

Is true, is true. Jay and Andrew are quite right. And I would not defend my previous assault on Mississippi's character on the grounds that it helps the debate. I just find it extremely difficult to absorb abuse complacently.

Perhaps Henstoat as my wife's family say, 'It was six and two threes. '

Sorry if my comment was interpreted as bolshi or dictatorial - of course everyone's got the right to an opinion - I thought that's what I was doing. I still think prevention is better than cure.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other?

noooo hovis, i didnt see it that way at all..... i agree with you, entirely... cor, we cant half get ourselves into trouble in these forums... its the lack of facial expressions i think...

That last comment of mine was in reply to Andrew

gawd... we're all on eggshells now... heres a facial expression :o)

You know this is what happens when something so negative happens it sets little random sparks a flashing..and I'm a bit sparky today anyway. I suggest a cold beer all round and turn the tv on. I'm a watching a behind the scenes cult show thing and they're featuring Dallas - it's hilarious - Brad Pitt was even in one episode ;)

I have to say, I think it is just a misunderstanding of Henstoat saying that perhaps we all could do a little more to look out for each other to mean 'the parents are to blame' - anyone who read Henstoat as meaning that would be rightly upset, but that clearly isn't what he meant. My own view is that you can have a thoughtful debate about very sensitive issues, but perhaps for some people it was too close. I am sorry that anyone has been upset, but I think in general people on this site sometimes take differences of opinion too personally. You can disagree with someone's opinions without having to dislike them. There are a few people on this site whose opinions often run counter to mine, but they make their points well and I've no doubt that in person I would get on with them very well.

I know I might be stating the obvious but only to the ones who have kids, it was Liana who prompted this. A good parent never, but never stops loving or worrying about their kids and then comes the grand kids it is always again but always, there with you were ever or whatever you do and when you get old and can't get to see them everyday like you used to your thoughts can sometimes become a nightmare because you mustn't show them your fears when and if they vist as it could frighten them also they must be allowed to grow each doing there own thing with guidance of cause from their parents. If anything it is harder being a grandmum as you have so much time to think about them and wonder what they are doing wanting desperately to be part of their everyday lives all the time but knowing you can't, most times watching from a distance but wanting to hold them in your arms as you could when they were little. What do they say about wanting to turn back time which as we all know must surely be in the minds of the two little girls parents and family now and always. Having got to know most of you through ABC I know you won't mind me including all of you in my next words to them. We wish with all our hearts that we could wave a magic wand and turn back time for you making this nightmare disappear but sady we haven't got that power if only!!! we had, we would fly to the moon and get it for you every last one of us, what little is left is this>>>>>>> In all our thoughts we reach out to you In all our minds we hold your hands to comfort you In all our hearts we enfold you in your hours of need In all our prayers we will remember and pray for you.

It's going to happen as soon as you start bringing words like "appalled" and "obnoxious" into the equation to describe other people on the site. The accused has a choice of either being big and ignoring it, accepting that said words describe them and their attitudes perfectly (not likely!) or answering in kind (most tempting by far.) Disgust breeds disgust, and it all ends in tears.

This site is now a poorer place.

Poor show, poor show - ad hominem arguments are, as far as I'm concerned, indicitive of poor reasoning and as such should be considered a victory by the opposing debatee. How do you create a society in which young girls cannot be snatched off the street? Or, by extension, where planes cannot be flown into buildings, where politicians cannot be assassinated, where your family cannot drown in floods. Events like this burst people's protective bubble, and show them for that one, brief moment before they close it again, that life and people can be brutal, harsh, and it can end at any time. You are not invincible and no matter what you do it is possible you will die in agony. Those are pretty unpleasant truths to absorb, and so unsurprisingly people grasp for ways to regain control, or ways that at least give them the comforting illusion of control. Of course, the ultimate way of controlling someone is to kill them. You have ended them, you have contracted the locus of their influence to nil. They cannot hurt you or do anything unpredictable. It's what provokes the witchhunt mentality. The death of the two little girls saddens me, and I feel sorry for their families. Unfortunately it is a reality of life that there is not a great deal you can do to prevent suffering and random acts of what appears to be malice. It serves one well, rather than lashing out in a futile bid for control, to reflect on how precious life is, and how each day may be your last. It shows that, in a world where people may choose to be cruel and vicious, the most important thing you can do is resolve to be loving and compassionate. That is what can attain true control over.

Yeahbut, yeahbut! It may not solve anything, but beyond resolving to be loving and compassionate (which, I agree, is the most important thing to do,) is it not worth asking how you can change - or what change you can influence - that might help even just a little? I think we can easily afford to be more attentive towards each other - to reach outside the private shells we often make ourselves - and perhaps take more of an interest in our surroundings. I think we could improve matters simply by rallying against our own laziness.

applauds henstoat.. and, asking how you can change, and despairing that you cannot personally cure the world, helps people to deal with situations like this... if we stop asking and despairing, thats when we become a truly uncaring and cynical society.

I wonder how long it sticks - my guess is that if you are even tangentially involved, it never goes away. I bet anyone in the shopping centre the day Jamie Bulger went missing hasn't turned a blind eye to an upset child since. I remember very well walking to the paper shop during the search for Sarah Payne and being approached by a kid of about eight or nine who wanted me to play football with him. I said that wasn't a good idea and he suggested going to the common to play. I told him in very definite terms that he should never go off anywhere with someone he didn't know and without telling his mum. He went on to ask if I'd buy him some sweets. Point being, in the midst of all that panic, and I've no doubt anyone who had kids feverishly telling them about strangers, kids still have that innate sense of trust and lack of danger. Not sure preventing children from playing outside is a solution, unless you want kids to grow up with memories of nothing other than cartoons, Crazy Bones and Game Boys. Perhaps we all need to take situations less on trust than we do - don't know the full facts yet, but I wonder how many people would even have noticed a woman walking along with two kids - even afterwards, when they'd have been looking for a dirty old man dragging screaming children into a van. And that is why I think demonising paedophiles is a bad idea - we expect demons to look and act a certain way and could easily miss them when they don't fit the package.

just logged on after a few days and I am appalled that my honest and sincere thoughts for the families has turned yet again into a heated debate for all of the old and new adversaries of these forums. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Where except for the few, have just wished and been glad that you nor I have had to "walk the walk" as a wise man has stated above on this thread? the obnoxious post as pasted below is a prime example: "can we perhaps consider the possibility of taking a little of the responsibility ourselves? I'm reminded of a far less grave incident - the flasher on the UEA campus, who kept exposing himself to girls. Naturally, the student council and the student newspaper campaigned to have more lights, more policemen and more security cameras around to protect students, whatever the cost in time and money, but little was said about the idea of students protecting themselves and each other. It's just too inconvenient." How can anyone equate this in their reasoning with what happened in Soham? So these poor kids should have empowered themselves. Well yes in an ideal world, they could have, perhaps their parents had they had a crystal ball could have empowered them too. Get real, these sick bastards who prey upon the innocents are not worthy of any type of debate let alone a heated one. If I should tell you that I have printed the above posts out and I am now going to post them to the parents of Holly and Jessica, with your names and e-mail addresses who among you would hold your head up and be proud of your responses and who among you would be ashamed. Answer this honestly and then pour your spurious comments upon my head, let's face it, I have got very thick skin.

My comments are sincere. I don't need anyone's approval.

Ah now this is sincere AND heartwarming, I'm sure the folks of Soham will follow your advice! ......"I suggest a cold beer all round and turn the tv on. I'm a watching a behind the scenes cult show thing and they're featuring Dallas - it's hilarious - Brad Pitt was even in one episode ;)"..........

Aha! So you're joining in the mud-slinging? Good, good. Always nice when someone arrives late at a party, shouts, "This is appalling!" and then gets stuck into the drinks cabinet. In answer to your questions: AJ: "If I should tell you that I have printed the above posts out and I am now going to post them to the parents of Holly and Jessica, with your names and e-mail addresses who among you would hold your head up and be proud of your responses and who among you would be ashamed?" I'd be neither particularly - my opinions are not to be paraded around like a trophy, nor hidden in my closet. I'd think you were damned insensitive though, trying to prove a point by sending them my miscreant musings in their darkest hour. Shame on you for even concocting such a scheme! AJ: "Where except for the few, have just wished and been glad that you nor I have had to "walk the walk" as a wise man has stated above on this thread?" Firstly, what does that mean?? Secondly, calling Missi a 'wise man' when he was quite blatantly venting steam and age prejudice against my proposals (which he misread completely,) only proves you're as ready as anyone else to wallow in heated debate. You can stuff your "I'm appalled" nonsense. I was grasping for a possible way of provoking a change for the better among people (by suggesting we look out for ourselves and each other better - hence my reference to the UEA flasher.) The verbal abuse I receive in return is a load of hypocritical bilge, and I don't take it very well. AJ: "How can anyone equate this in their reasoning with what happened in Soham? So these poor kids should have empowered themselves." No. *People* in general should look out for themselves and others. I don't expect young children to be able to maintain constant vigilance and distrust, but I can *suggest* students and adults do not shut themselves away in their own worlds, but pay attention to the dangers around them. It's unlikely that any change can be brought about overnight, but unless we admit that we ourselves could improve matters, as Liana says, we've all but accepted this is going to happen til the end of time. While logic may suggest that, hope should refuse to acknowledge it. I had nothing against either you or Mississippi until you started laying into me with your holier-than-thou moral rhetoric. Please stop it. Here and now.

Sorry that was probably past your bedtime. Sincerest apologies.

......"I had nothing against either you or Mississippi until you started laying into me with your holier-than-thou moral rhetoric. Please stop it. Here and now."......... why? Touched a raw nerve have I? If the cap fits...................... At least you have the guts to own up to your "villainous thoughts".

tut tut, breadman, didn't your mummy tell you that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit......

so I'll reiterate again for those of you who misread the title of this thread: my heart goes out to..the parents and relatives of those two poor kids. my life and all of its ups and downs pail in to oblivion to what they must be going through tonight. I send my heartfelt and deepest sympathy to all of them.............:>( and those of you have a problem with these sentiments, put it on another thread!

Its now 3:40 am I'm safe when I write at this hour as my threads very rearly get looked at or any commet's made, but it gives me chance to have my say and makes me feel better getting things down and out of my mind while not boring the rest of you. Anyway I have read the above threads many times and I must say Andrew Pack said a lot for me, the Jamie Bulger case, now I have never!!! been able to get that out of my mind and now the two little girls and the thought of a women who mybe involved and so young. Next, nothing to do with the above but yesterday and I don't watch the news very often as it depresse's me I hear they are going to stone!!! to death this women in Nigeria for having a child out of wedlock and if I got this next bit right it was a law that had been scraped but they are bringing it back, its the stoning bit that I can't get my head round and the man involved never mentioned, him after all it takes two, well it did once but then I could have lost track of time. "What a world"

Yes, you've touched a raw nerve, AJ: My devout and unreasonable hatred of delusional, hypocritical piety. I have no problem with the sentiments you *state* with regards to the families. However, the fact that you use them as playing pieces to provoke guilt in others is utterly sick and twisted. Get it sorted, son.

Sorry there's no low form of wit. Unless you're talking cliches. And tip for the day - don't quote out of context unless you want a job working for The Sun... or maybe you already do. Yes maybe the forum moved away from your original premise but at least you can take something away from it. It was a good exercise in how easy it is to demonise the non-conformists.

The man has no worthwhile reply to make, Hovis - we can only expect more accusations and snorts. He's all righteous spears and bared flesh.

i think AJ is female, H. and you've not taken Jay's wise advice to heart. "Please let me say this you have already said on a long thread in responce to Mississippi all your thoughts which is your right to do so, but now you have just repeated quite a few of your words again on your last thread." i agree with the spirit of your argument, but not with this tactic of reissuing challenges when you don't get immediate satisfaction. if the thread is just going to drift into the trading of ad hominem arguments, i think it has come to the end of its useful life.

I generally only issue challenges in reply to people. My last comment was indulgent and pointless, I must admit, but before that I was making direct replies to accusations/questions levelled at me by Missi and AJ. The fact that they were meant to be rhetorical devices designed to belittle me shouldn't stop me answering. Also, while I'm usually just angry at being personally attacked, the line of argument AJ took has definitely struck a more fiery nerve - using the Daily Mail tactic of shoving people's private grief in your opponent's face as a way to make them back down. Proposing, even theoretically, to send my posts to the parents, and then attacking Hovis with a sarcastic, "I'm sure the folks of Soham will take your advice" is horrible - to simultaneously berate us for insensitivity and tut, "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit," is unbelievable! I freely admit my posts don't help, but I find it verging on impossible to let such things go by. Plenty of time for serenity in old age.

In an attempt to steer the thread in a slightly different direction (but with all due respect to the arguments raging above)..... Judging by the scathing character assassinations being carried out in the press, the caretaker and his partner have all but been found guilty. I haven’t been following the story too closely (I find the reporting of such terrible events far too shallow) but is there incontrovertible evidence that these two are guilty and if so, why haven’t the police actually charged them? If it’s only a matter of time before they do, could the quality of reporting adversely affect the trial either resulting in another weak conviction or the murderers having to be freed?

now settle down, Hen. i wasn't questioning your right to reply in the manner you see fit, merely your 'double' posts on this thread. and now here's a third post of the same kind. as far as your manner of reply is concerned, you might like to consider these words, written by a young man with a wise head: "Where my own anger is concerned, it is *never* a good way to react - I always end up making the situation worse, even if I'm angry for these moral reasons."

Hmph. You're right. As usual. In reply to Chooselife - I think your concerns highly justified. But it's not like the tabloids would care - if they can act in a way which threatens the legitimacy of the trial and causes killers to go free, it's only more easy meat for the front pages.

Henstoat you really are becoming the most annoying, pompous little brat this site has seen in a long time. No one gives a damn what you do, there is no need for anyone to belittle you, you're doing ok on your own account, everytime you open your youthful mouth and expose your arrogance. Now why don't you be a good little boy and go back to school, you might just learn a little bit about how to react to those you feel are your inferiors. Henstoat you really are becoming the most annoying, pompous little brat this site has seen in a long time. No one gives a damn what you do, there is no need for anyone to belittle you, you're doing ok on your own account, everytime you open your youthful mouth and expose your arrogance. Now why don't you be a good little boy and go back to school, you might just learn a little bit about how to react to those you feel are your inferiors. There's nothing worse than a conceited, cocky kid with half a brain.