Well that's the edited script mississippi, minus commercial breaks, how it actually went is:
In the light of recent events terrorist attacks, school shootings, etc,
There's never been a better time to buy a used Chrysler, and we're giving 'em away this weekend at Crazy Bob's Auto Shack..
Let’s see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found only recently), complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and we said, OK.
And you'll be saying OK too when you go don't to Bucket O Burgers, where it's all you can eat for just 6.95!
Hi we're back and I'm talking to Anne Graham, you were saying Ann..
Then, someone said you’d better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says, “Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself.”
Are your neighbours annoying you? Well then you need the Ingrams 9mm sub machine gun, there's nothing better when it comes to home security. Call 1-800 red hot death...
God's got the hump with us so that is why he lets bad things happen....
Is that the point?
It is people who write and distribute the stuff in the opening thread that give God a bad name.
I do believe in a an all knowing God that is good... but is powerless to act. It must be pretty painful to be in his/her position sometimes (all knowing) without getting the blame for our actions too.
Just be glad that whilst you are alive, you have the power to act, and use it wisely while you can. He will not be best pleased with you, if you fuck up, when you eventually meet up with him.
After doing some revision study (*hangs head in shame*) I came across a section of my notes called Post Holocaust Theology. Obviously it relates to the Jews but there were some interesting theories from various people about why God let it happen such as:
Free will (obvious and therefore boring but had to mention it)
God taking a step back from History : thus allowing us to make our own choices otherwise we'd just be puppets to his whim (not the same as above, honestly) the idea is that he leaves us to find our own way for periods then reins us back in before he has to cause a flood
God broke his covenenant and therfore it is now a voluntary thing rather than obligatory (to practice Judaism)
God's dead
Punishment for the various other sects (in particular zionism - i.e. the belief that Jews should have their own land, which would be ironic if true as one of the direct results of the holocaust was that Israel was made a Jewish state.... mind you maybe he's pissed off about that and therefore the nightmare ensues)
Various other things which wern't quite so intersting
Of course this is all based around the idea that the holocaust was a unique act of genocide which is quite annother debate altogether.
Still just thought I'd mention it ;)
See... I AM studying
*promptly opens amazon web page and orders a new DVD*
How to patronise God in one easy lesson:
'I believe that he has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?'
This woman obviously believes she has more say so than any God, and that we can demand that he leaves this world alone????
(oh, Jude where are you when we need you?)
'gentleman' hm, what like, er, say Prince Charles or Piers Brosnan?
'I think it started when Madeline Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found only recently), complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools.'
You think what started exactly? Terrorism? Shootings? There was a single moment??Now this is getting laughable, except that this woman is obviously taken seriously and published.
So we are to blame, yes, the ordinary man in the street, for suggesting kids shouldn't be smacked but should learn discipline in a more complex way related to humanitarian principles, tougher than saying 'God will be cross with you, Jesus would be sad if you did that.'
We are to blame for deciding to have non-denominational schools? To not put kids off faith entirely by forcing some naff shadow of an idea of faith to them by saying prayers at meals and in assembly. Who is stopping them going to church at week-ends anyway?
Trash God...not many trash God as such, rather they trash what people present to them as God, all the magnificent cr*p that purports to serve God, such as Bush's Holy War and Jihad.
As for all the little right wing stances on all those emotive social issues. Yes we have chosen the difficult path of self-moderation, of learning in a much deeper way about our responsibilities, in the hope that a more sophisticated understanding of these issues might carry more weight than the argument that says, we shouldn't because God says it's wrong. How easy is that to say? Far too easy. In fact it is so easy to say that God is behind acts that many fly the banner of God when they murder thousands.
But there is nothing of God in that ,only a great deal of man.
'We reap what we sow' - oh, so what are we going to get as a reward for the work of Amnesty International, the Red Cross, Medicins sans Frontiers etc etc etc...I want a pressie as I support them.
As was quoted on another thread, 'He is the true Messiah, I should know, I've followed a few.' This tells us a great deal about man and nothing about God.
I meant to say this and forgot - redemption and salvation being a central part of Christianity, it would be wrong for a vengeful NEW Testament God to kill sinners because they had offended him, because they ought to have the opportunity to redeem themselves in years ahead.
(A bit tricky this, because we then get into the 'well, God is ominiscent and knows the future, so knows they would always be evil' as against 'but then that negates Free Will, which is an integral part of the deal - if we live out a preordained future as part of God's plan, then he can hardly punish us for playing out our role' argument, and that involves me reading more Thomas Aquinas than I'm prepared to do on a Monday afternoon)
My point being - on any given day, even the most heinous of sinners could repent and find salvation, so you have to believe that God does not pick and choose people, but instead allows fate and accident to select those who die.
This is a complex issue. Murder and immorality have been around since before and outside religion.
It is whether or not we allow God into our hearts not our schools that makes either Love or Fear.
Jude
ps ...just got back from the convent yesterday can u tell???
well considering your ideas on the deadly cold cures thread I have to say yes.... at least convents always drive me to drink... but that could just be my aunt
Did you have fun?
I might be a right-winged conservative Christian from the States (actually, I'm more Libertarian in ideology, but that's beside the point). I think Ms. Graham (or the Christian script-writer ... which it probably is) had some valid points. I had never thought about some of those things quite like that before.
I don't understand him all that well, Vicky, but here goes :-
The argument I summarised above - does man have Free Will, and if not, how can he be blamed or rewarded for carrying out his preordained role, and if so - how does that fit with a God who as an omnipotent being must be able to see the future? was one that exercised a great many philosophers a few centuries back.
Thomas Aquinas I think comes to the conclusion that God is omnipotent and therefore must be able to perceive the future, but that does not mean that he can influence the future (which again is a cop-out on omnipotence, but we get back to the 'can God make a stone so heavy that he can't lift it' debate - odd as it may seem and despite the meaning of the word, there must be some limits to omnipotence - God can either lift everything he can create, or he can make something too heavy to lift, he can't do both, even if he is omnipotent, as that leads to paradox)
Aquinas says essentially that God exists outside of time and perceives all time, but if he were to interfere (say to prevent disasters or tragedies) that would be an interference with Free Will. My take on it is that God is like the Time Lords in Dr Who - they were able to travel through time and could thus have made the universe in their own design, but voluntarily choose not to do so.
Faith and redemption and sin make no sense whatsoever if Man does not have Free Will. It simply has to be the case, for Christianity to work, that Man has the power to choose to be evil and it is in resisting that choice that Man becomes good. God could easily have made a world in which it was hardwired into all humans to be good and to believe in God and to follow his commandments - the fact that he chose not to do so suggests strongly that it is CHOOSING to do good that is important, not merely doing good because you can do no other. (see also A Clockwork Orange, in which Burgess argues that choosing to be bad is better than compelling someone to be good with no free choice)
I don't actually see the Jesus and St Peter thing as a paradox - if all time exists and is capable of being observed, even things that haven't happened yet, then occasionally someone may come along who gets the occasional glimpse of things yet to come. I actually find this less troubling than the raising of Lazarus - not because Jesus (if he were the Son of God) wouldn't be able to raise the dead, but because he shouldn't - (a) how do you pick who to raise from the dead. (b) wouldn't you get swamped with other people asking you to raise their dead relatives, (c) once you begin raising the dead, how does anyone get over their grief, they would just keep hoping for a return, (d) it interferes with either Fate (it was Lazarus' time and therefore he should be allowed to pass without resurrection) or Free Will.
I have to say... a well behaved polite respectful child is a child that has experienced love and respect not a birch at home or school... in my experience it is kids who are unloved that grow into godless (to use a christian word) beings than kids who are battered into submission... to use spocks sons suicide as a valid example of why modern child rearing practises are not working is stupid and unkind.
And the part about internet child porn doesn't even deserve commenting on, it's so ludicrous. Shame on you Mark YB, what ARE you thinking?
Okay thats pretty cool thanx.
In anticipation I prepared this random quote from Aquinas's Summa Thologica
“It is impossible for any created intellect to comprehend God: yet “for the mind to attain God in some degree is great beatitude.” As Augustine says (De Verb,..Senn xxxvii). In proof of this we must consider what is comprehended is perfectly known; and that is perfectly known which is known so far as it can be known.”
Qu 12
What's THAT about... *sigh* see what I have to put up with?
Also I agree with the whole raising from the dead thing... except doesn't it suggest in the Gospel that Jesus did it because he needed to show that while we will all rise from the dead 'on the last day' that here and now he is 'the ressurection and the life' and if you believe in him you will never die. The timing is important too if I remember rightly cause Jesus actullly knew about Lazarus being ill for a few days but waited until he'd been entoombed to show up...
I think it's in John somewhere
Wow... I really have learned stuff .... who needs to study huh?
It's Sunday so I'll put on my christian hat (sorry, Mark!).
There are some VERY valid points and, as a society, we do reap what we sow. Unfortunately that diatribe picks out the usual suspects - "illicit" sex, video nasties, lack of parental/school discipline - and gives Republican sacred cows such as widespread gun availability and unbridled capitalist profiteering a wide berth.
Christianity at its best is holistic and is therefore largely found in the Third World where they are struggling with food shortages, health problems and official opposition and will naturally share Jesus with their neighbours rather than send them offensive E-mails.
Child pornography is VERY illegal in the U.S., but that's not what I want to say.
I think a lot of you do realize this, but I'm going to bring it up anyway. Christianity is not a religion that you'd typically come to out of logic (although, there have been cases of this, mainly of aethiest researchers). It is something that'll come to you through a very inner process, and when it does, you'll suddenly see the world in a whole different way, and you'll have an exciting new purpose in life. Also, you're never going to come to Christianity by happenstance. You've got to ask God for it! And, if you continue to seek him (by reading the Bible and going to church), you'll soon be ready to take the 'leap of faith.'
And so, a lot of the questions that many of you are asking, nobody has an answer for. You could formulate dozens of theories about these topics and all the other topics that have and haven't been brought up, and you'll never know for sure.
I also feel it relevant to bring up that God doesn't want people to die without seeing salvation. Even though there are tons of benefits from becoming a Christian, there are responsibilities that Christians have on their shoulders, and one of the major ones is to spread The Word. The reason that people die without seeing salvation is because Christians weren't zealous enough to lead this person to the faith. The next time a Christian tries to tell the Gospel to you, don't dismiss this person because they have a very narrow-minded view of the world. They understand as much of the world as you do, and possibly even more. You'd be the narrow-minded one for not listening and refusing to even properly entertain the idea.
wow I've been away from a day so it's good to read all these replies.
I absolutely agreed with most Anne Graham's points.
In the West most of our laws are based around the ten commandments, and it's only recently that we've had a society, mostly in the West , that embraces relative morality and look at the results, a huge spiritual vacum being filled by materialism, self-centredness and greed yet just look at the youth of today. They have no role models, no plumbline and their parents are as lost, confused and desperately in needas they are.
After 14 years of being a Christian I'm no longer shocked at the incredible prejudice and patronising responses of some non christians to any type of Christian posting, on this site.
The point is that I've been following Christ all this time, have prayed, studied the bible been involved in various types of ministry, and therefore base my views, about my faith on a certain experience.
I have to say that some of the people who reply to my threads so often can't be bothered to do more than use bigotted attacks against people they accuse of being bigotted, and their experience of Christianity is of media reportage which have their own agenda, old views that have been long discredited, and so called Christians who don't reflect any Christian virtues, and who are so obviously not really representative.
I still stand by the view that the most vitriolic anti-christians have far more personal angst based on annoying moral dilemmas within their own consciences than actual well thought out arguments.
I know the last point is extremely provacative but I've seen too many converts who were formally incedibly bitter against what they imagined was a religion that was nothing to do with real Christianity. Usually people, brought up in a religious school where they were subjected to abuse at the hands of so called `Christians` and many other types of religious hypocracy throughout their life.
Yet what has that got to do with the message of Jesus and the `good news of the gospel` that we who need forgiveness (because of a deep seated sinful heart that makes us spit even to hear such words) can be forgiven by a risen christ.
It's not really good enough to have such bitterness based on such flimsy arguements.
i.e I won't believe in a christian God, I won't even engage intelligently because I don't like the feelings that come up. Feelings that allow me to be as abusive as I like because it's so pc and right-on.
Feelings based on people that I've met who don't reflect at all the teachings of Christ, or people in the public eye who've fallen. The fact that they are falible humans and so am I, doesn't come into it.
If it's the case that my faith could be as weak and insecure as to be affected by what other Christians do to discredit it I would be no longer a Christian.
My Christian faith is built wholly on the foundation of Christ. Not other people. A faith based on the bible and Christian spirituality that has a connection over 2 thousand years , a religion that is still spreading world-wide, changing lives and bringing hope to millions.
The news is out their if you would choose to read it. Look at South America, China, Africa, whose revivals are so life changing that they are sending missionaries to the West!
I must reiterate that of course by no means all of the responses are lazy and patronising, but going over the postings on this thread, quite a few are
Aren't you assuming that if someone tries to tell the Gospel to me and I dissmiss what he is saying that I don't already know the Gospel as well as he does and have rejected it nonetheless?
On the other hand, it's always good to hear someone else's point of view as long as they are equally openminded. (er meaning the man who tried to tell the Gospel to me that is)
Do you? If you've truly tried taking the leap of faith, then I hope God will reveal himself to you one day.
Yes, it does seem to be a bit of a one-way street there, which is unfair I suppose! Although, Christians are merely asking you to take a leap of faith, which wouldn't hurt you. However, asking a Christian to abandon their faith would hurt something drastically.
Well if there's anything heartening about your message Mark, it's that you are obviously well again. I'm glad you're in good health, but not so glad to see you are still trying to convince yourself (and everyone else for that matter) that religion is a part of human life. How ever do all the other species get by without it?
british christians are the biggest hypocrits of them all. I walked away from organised religion because they are there biggest charltans on the earth. When i was homeless sometimes i would pop in to a church looking for some spritual support and i would hear some priest going on about how homless people brought it on themselfs.
In scotland most christians are alcoholics and hide behind ignorance to there brother and sisters plight. Oh i believe in jesus and i found him (and just blike the bible says it is the fallen who find god) but i know he wants the message put across that the present chritian religion is nothing to do with the G.
The spanish are real christians unfortunetly as i said the british christians have failed miserably and that i know truly.
Well for starters Vic, I've been led to believe that the most successful animal life form on the planet are ants. I've never noticed them filing into church on Sunday mornings.
Faith, by definition can't be asked of someone Don. It's either there or it's not. It's not like asking someone to be nice. You can't make yourself feel something you don't. In that way it's a bit like trying to force yourself to love someone when, for no reason which you can explain, you just don't.
The truth is that it CAN hurt for people to ask me to take a leap of faith. I would give anything to feel the way that you, or Jude or MYB or, for that matter, my late mother, feel. To have something greater than myself watching over me would be very comforting, and all I have to do in return is to live the way that I do anyway (morally) except that I wouldn't feel so alone. But in the same way I can't force myself to love someone, I just don't feel that God exists, in any way.
And yes, I have looked.
A priest once told me that God had 'another plan' for me. Well if that's true I'd love to know why I seem to be the exception to the rule that if you want to let God into your life you will find him.
Hmphh
Not that it's all black you understand. I quite enjoy my life, I have to you see cause either I'm right, and this is all I get, or I'm wrong and eternity's gonna be very unpleasant.
;)
true, but then religion doesn't have to involve a central place of worship... for all we know ants worship flowers for being beautiful and spiders for being terrible... stands to reason that if they DID have religion it wouldn't be anything like ours, they are, after all, er ants
Interesting - I went over to the thread that "anon" points to, and read it. Seems many others engaging here have also read it and are in intelligent debate, and yet Mark seems for some reason to be pointedly ignoring it.
Mark - you say that we say: "i.e I won't believe in a christian God, I won't even engage intelligently" - how laughable is that? I know lots of people are waiting for you to fulfil your stated intent to elaborate further on your reasons for your belief on the "a meditation on jesus" thread. Kevin responded very intelligently to you there and suggested a discussion - as I see it, you fell to pieces there and are running scared. Can you convince us otherwise, or shall you continue to ignore someone who evidently has the brain to engage at a higher (no pun intended) level?
Sadly, I can only conclude that there's no evidence of any intelligent rational individual consideration or thought behind your rhetoric - and therefore that is all it must be - rhetoric. You should take a leaf from Neil's book. Here we have a rational, intelligent Christian with firm beliefs who manages to engage in debate without spite or aggression.
Just because atheists disagree with you, it does not make them Satan.
If you continue to ignore reasonable posts and spout superstitious nonsense, then you must be prepared to be ridiculed.
Here you are Mark - this is still where you left it.
http://phorum.abctales.com/read.php?f=3&i=18391&t=18391
Yeah, I am a bit bored. I always try to provoke a fight at the height of boredom. The forum is a bit turgid anyway, ever since it was innoculated with the needle of death, administered by the moderators who have become bored elsewhere. Probably because their moderation has neutered any chance of a lively debate there. It reminds me of that old song about the guy that was so productive he worked himself out of a job.
Thanks Mississippi, It's been hard in my first full year of secondary school teaching, but as Elton said, "I'm still standing!"
About being patronising, my only wish is that when someone posts a thread that people do not agree with that there could be some intelligent responses , but I'm not being that naive, I've around this site long enough to know how much people love putting the boot in behind the anonymity of a web-site, that's why I never post `anon`.
You know what, I could be the most deluded person on this site but I do get fed up with the normal knee jerk liberal, morally relative responses from people who because they do not belong to a main stream religion or a recognised type of spirituality must be somehow more enlightened or superior. And as much as those type of people think exactly the same about `religious ` people why don't we dialogue seriously with respect?
This is a forum and it's good to challenge and be challenged.
I've enjoyed Andrew Pack's challenging posts and David Floyds.
Missis are more aggressive than thought out but we've known eachother enough, webwise, to really, respect each other's differences, and both think the other is wrong!
There is another strand of criticism which is probably the most patronising, where the person responds to a posting as if they're doing everyone a favour by bestowing their complete dismissal of a person's standpoint.
Usually one short `witty` line, when in fact if they had some integrity in their negative attitude towards the post they would have just ignored it.
I prefer the downright abusive to the arrogant detractor.
I am an opinionated mouthy person who regularly puts his foot in things and rises to the bait beautifully.
But I stand by my faith and I unashamably love and worship Jesus.
(I know that will make some people gag!!)
Seriously, man - if you're bored with the threads, isn't there something else you can do while they go their merry way? Think positive - think of a period of turgidness as a gift of extra time. Surely, stirring things up because you know people'll bite is manipulating the forums in a similar way to *getting rid* of such contention!
Marnie, A confession, it's just a matter of having no time. Enough people who have been on this site years know that I have many times , and I mean many times debated on my faith, I promise you. I used to be a full time editor on the site and had more time.
Now I'm a full time English teacher at secondary school, it means I miss the site for ages.
I would love to discuss my faith with you.
Are you mad Hen? If Missus doesn't provoke the threads then all we have are the trolls to provide entertainment.... YHVH, Jesus, AND Budda help us
bring on the boredom I say.....
Sorry David (Floyd) I insulted you by saying you were giving reasoned responses, not wanting to really pee you off I will amend that and say they were some of the laziest, sorry again Dave. I was being lazy then!
because people like being scared Flash... fact of life... and we're more scared by the thought of religion or no religion than we are of a man in a chicken suit that does our bidding...
Actually, no... I'm more afraid of the latter
Oh, no problem Mark - I cannot alas, discuss this as intelligently as kevin, I'm at least able to admit that. Shame, I know he was looking forward to it.
I could accept that you may be too busy to respond to him, if only you weren't posting such long things here! So, sadly I must conclude that his wonderful posts were too much for you, and you were out of your depth. Such is life.
ps "morally relative" ?????
Vicky -- It won't happen all at once! It took me ever since I've developed legitimate logic (maybe when I was 12) until I was nearly 19 until I finally grew out of my 'carnal, doubting Christian' phase to a more budding one. And even through this very short time, I've been going through spiritual agonies (mostly through the footholds I let Satan create during the 12-19 years). So, it'll take persistance to get there, and it'll take continued persistance to stay there!
Of course, it's your perrogative to not seek God. But, if you're still interested, I might suggest that you join some sort of Christian social group. I never would have 'budded' hadn't I done that. Perhaps if you see how God is alive through other people, you'll come to the understanding. (Also, keep in mind that, as a Christian, there'll be times when it feels like God has abandon you ... but that's for a reason.) Again, it works differently in different people. That's just how it worked for me.
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