George,
That would be really interesting since the first polls don't even close until 7:00 PM Eastern Time, 2 hours from now. With a total of 0% of the vote counted, George Bush leads by 1%. Exactly what is 1% of nothing?
You're cracking me up there guy.
The conversation seems much more civilized on here than the other discussion board I've been contributing to! (Although, I've had enough of a headache and I won't go into detail about why I voted for Bush.)
It would be interesting if Hillary ran in 2008 ... I think she would have a good shot at it. Although, she would really have to do a good job protecting her image from mudslinging more so than any other candidate. If Hillary ran, conservatives are going to come out of the woodwork to damage her because they HATE her. They hate her more than they hate her husband. On the other side, Guiliani or McCain, I think, would be great if they ran in 2008. McCain might be a little old by then, but Guiliani seems like he would make a good prez (and they're both moderate, too, I believe).
For starters, I live in the Southern US, and I voted Kerry. The state I live in, North Carolina, voted Bush to win 56% to 44% for Kerry. I knew from the start of the election that Bush would win North Carolina. Why? Is it because we're dumber in the South? Here is my theory....
First of all, I think Americans in general are some of the most poorly educated, ignorant, close-minded people in the world. But, that description does not only lend itself to the "Bible Belt," as it were. It spreads all across the land, amongst Bush and Kerry supporters alike. The South gets a bad reputation for being dumb because of the stigma that surrounds it, from the culture, to the history (slavery, etc), to the accents, to the lifestyles (lazy summer days and lemonade), to the livelihood (farmland), to the dependence on religion. But I will point to the key factor as to why Bush won the South and Heartland states; he sold himself as being more traditional in his morals than Kerry.
If one thing is certainly true about the Southern states, it is that they are some of the most traditional in their views. In most states in the South, there are STILL laws governing whether or not you live with a lover without being married, what positions you have sex in, etc. Bush presented the more "moral" choice, given his stance on abortion, mainly, and his equivocable nature to quote scripture and evoke the name of God at the drop of a hat. Think what you want about the man, he sure knows how to speak to his kind...
Unfortunately for the poor cretins, at least 51% of the country are his kind, which allowed him to win the election, along with Kerry's inability to capitalize on 4 of the worst years in American history. Conversely, over 75% of the rest of the world wanted to see a new leader in the United States (according to Globalvote.com's poll). We're seeing thousands of soldiers killed every day in a country that was declared "won" over 3 months ago. Daily beheadings of innocents, including non-Americans and peace keepers, occur every day in a country that we supposedly "helped" by removing a dictator whom I agree was bad news, but I also think should NOT have been our primary target. I live in a country that has alienated countries that have been our friends for hundreds of years, and who has further angered a growing population of dangerous extremists, adding more fuel to their fiery jihad against our country. Bush has created a new Crusades with his rhetoric, citing that they are the evil-doers, and we are the heavenly saints, never looking to see the other side of the coin, the whys behind the hows. He has made the war religious, combined the church with the state, something our country has written we should NOT do, and the blind sheep in this nation are eating it up, not just because it feels right to them morally, but also because they fear change so much that they ignore the obvious signs that change was needed.
If I had the financial means, I would leave this country for the next 4 years and watch the blaze from afar, glad I could escape before the vessel finally sank. But, I have to suffer under a leader I have NEVER supported, who I have NEVER voted for, who I cannot respect on any level, and I have to keep quiet about it for the most part, since he's enacted laws that tend to punish the free thinkers.
The first thing that needs to change in this country is how our president is elected, because the current system is fundamentally flawed. People who feel strongly against the administration stayed home in states that Bush would win because they knew that their vote would not count in any capacity under the current system. And others stayed home to vote with the incorrect notion that by not voting, they would not be affected.
I wish this country would figure their shit out soon, because I'm too young to worry about my elders.
Well it IS an American news service, Denver, I'm just reporting what they say. As far as most Brits are concerned I believe there's so much hatred of Bush they've overlooked that maybe Kerry is either no better or maybe even worse. For my part I'm just grateful that the immigration people in Atlanta didn't pick up on my motoring transgression of five years ago.
Yea, but MSN?
Okay, so you got a speeding ticket in Atlanta 5 years ago. The statute of limitations is over on that one. I don't think they extradite speeders either, so you're in good shape. So, you had a good visit then. How'd you like Naw'lins? I'm going to Mardi Gras next year (if I don't die or something). I've been to Louisiana more than I care to remember.
In keeping with my serious and important resolution to not worry about Bush, Blair or the world situation (deteriorating or improving - whichever it may be, I haven't been paying attention today), my therapy arrived today. Seinfeld on DVD.
It was like coming home. With the first twang of that slap bass my spirits lifted. Just seeing Jerry's enormous mobile phone was enough to bring on a nostalgic nirvana akin to seeing the Himalayas up close for the first time.
Laugh? It was like a blessed release.
It has NOTHING to do with "my guy lost."
My COUNTRY lost with Bush's initial election, and they stand to lose more with his re-election.
Trust me, if a monkey in a fez hat had run against Bush, I would have voted for the monkey not named Bush.
well the second sentence is true. Being a Bush supporter, you should be tops at spotting rhetoric.
Way to go Dan... you and your fellow Bush voters just condemmed the rest of the world (who have no say in it) to another 4 years of the fundamentalist smug bastard that doesnt care about anyone 'cept America.
Well, what a damp fucking squib that was. Kerry did worse than Al Gore. Worse than Al Gore? Worse than Al Gore...
Actually, I was sort of rooting for Bush, we get more interesting news with him, and Kerry always made me think of a coffin come to life. Jeez, how bad do you have to be to not only get beaten by George Bush, but actually do worse against him than Al Gore???
Faced with John Kerry, even the Anyone-But-Bush bandwagon voted Bush...
It wasn't a speeding ticket. It started out as a 'failure to yield' ticket (though I still believe that I was the wronged party) handed out just before I flew home from NOLA. I eventually paid the fine by mail in order to leave me free to return at a later date. The problem arose from the fact that the Traffic Court gave me 14 days to pay the fine and it was 7 days overdue when the notice arrived here in England. The court sent a receipt for the fine, accompanied by a demand for a further payment as a result of late payment. This was 14 days overdue on arrival. I explained the reason for the delay and appealed for common-sense to prevail. This only served to aggravate the situation and increase the sum demanded on the basis of my 'contempt of court'. I subsequently replied that in the light of the court's inability to address the issue with a modicum of reason, I found it difficult to feel anything other than contempt for their system. My rashness resulted in the court sending a notice that my driving licence was now suspended, the matter referred to the licensing dept. in Baton Rouge, and a warrant for my arrest issued. A US citizen offered to help resolve the problem on my behalf and I was eventually assured that the warrant hadn't actually been issued and the details removed from the computer in Baton Rouge, however although I trusted the word of my helper I had no official notification and was a little apprehensive on my return in October. After being finger-printed and eye-scanned I fully expected to be investigated by the CIA and sent to Guantanamo Bay whilst my family history was excavated. Fortunately the immigration officer was the good guy and I was declared acceptable.
Oh and I love New Orleans, it's now become my second home. Especially a lovely old French hotel on Esplanade Avenue. (Lamothe House)
I sat up until the wee small hours listening to David Dimbleby footling around. I didn't have a lot of hope in the (just) majority of the American people and I was proved right to do so.
This is so disappointing - and so dangerous - for the rest of the world.
The only person celebrating outside of the USA is Osama Bin Laden.
Can't those thick Bush voters twig this?
Lost all hope after hearing the news that Bin Laden's Party Political Broadcast on Friday had actually served to strengthen Bush's lead in the polls. I realised after that it would be more useful to bang head against wall than bother to have any faith. (Am loving the replies from America in The Guardian email to influence the vote campaign though - would almost be worth it for comedy value, were it not so dangerous).
But didn't you think Rachel that that was exactly what the Bin Laden tape was intended to achieve? He wants a clumsy US president that reaches for the gun rather than the phone.
(And to be honest, so do I - there's no point having Sky News unless there's something pyrotechnic to watch on it) And to be fair, I kind of like George and he didn't give me the creeps the way Kerry did. Not surprised he won, surprised it wasn't even close. With the way the electoral college system works, Kerry should have campaigned on double-tax-rates for Texas, cheaper taxes for people in Florida and Ohio. Apparently towards the end, the floating voters in Florida and Ohio were getting regular phone calls - the whole thing boiled down to probably quarter of a million undecided people in those two states.
Justin,
Howdy. While I share your electoral decision, I must disagree with your assessments and reasoning’s. I seriously doubt you'd gain much from moving out of the country and watching it burn from a distance. A typical emotional over-reaction to something that isn't likely to change your real life much from what it may have been with Kerry elected. Quite possibly even worse, as Kerry would still have to contend with a Republican majority in Congress and the Senate, which would more likely than not result in even less improvement and social/political progress. Good government isn’t about feeling good and Hollywood actors and glittering generalities. Good government starts with good ideas and people willing to work hard to change things for the better.
With such pent up passion, rather than stomping your feet and ranting on incoherently, why don't you get involved with your own community and try to effect change at the ground floor for the next election. The 2004 election is water under the bridge my friend. Move on, look to the future. Until the Democratic Party can turn the majority in states like North Carolina and Colorado, the Republicans will continue to dominate politics.
You're ranting about Bush when the real problem is the politics in your own back yard. Start there man. The power for change in this country is at the State level. With the race so close, all the Democrats needed to do was pick up a couple states, like Colorado and/or North Carolina. This is real business my friend, not somebody popping your baloon, you have to work for change. You will never bitch your way to success, Kerry found out the hard way.
No, I don't know if it was his intention. But either way I hoped that the electorate might have been a little brighter. Doh!
I think wanting Bush to reach for his gun is OK for Bin Laden, but not for us, or for any other person on the globe. But then, the masacre of thousands for the sake of entertainment is not really my thing. The only saving grace is that it may be Bush who gets to see the consequences of his mess. But it's a very unlikely grace, like expecting a dog to feel guilty about crapping in your shoe, clean up the mess and promise never to do it again.
Kerry wasn't really a viable candidate and negative campaigning never pulls the punches they think it will. Hilary Clinton 2008?
Yes, a disappointing evening wasn’t it?
Kerry’s problem, as perfectly illustrated by the little red & blue maps, is that he couldn’t connect with Middle America. Your average American is more concerned with security than social issues, which Bush played too. Life in Kansas and Oklahoma and all those other red states is good, even if you don’t care for they way they talk or the way they feel about the affairs of the world. Blaming Bush’s victory on Bin Laden or outside influences is naïve and pointless.
I heard some folks bitch’n about the Brits for mailing letters to Ohio, saying they fucked it up and turned it to Bush. Same thing, bullshit. There’s a split in our society and we can either mend it or rip it further apart. Ripping it further isn’t going to help the world nor America. If Bush’s victory holds up, he’s done in 4 years anyway and there’s another opportunity. If there’s a message here, it’s for the rest of the world to stay out of American Politics. Americans aren’t and will never look at the world from a European perspective.
For one, how do you know I'm not already involved to the extent I feel the need to be involved? I educate. I write. I raise awareness. I volunteer. However, while I admire the grass roots idealism, my problems with Bush's election falls beyond that.
My local politicians did not:
1) Lie to the country about the rationale of going to war
2) Go to war with a country we had no business going to war with
3) Have shady business dealings with Halliburton
4) Insult the rest of the world leaders by disrespecting their opinions and ignoring their pleas for peace
5) Call for a religious war on terror (I can find quotes if you like... he didn't come right out and say it, but he might as well have)
I don't fault my local politicians. They worry about if we have parks. Or if our schools are maintained. Those things are fine by me. My issues lay with the bigger problem; our figure head, and the direction he is steering our nation.
This is not a case of bitching and not doing anything about it. It's a case of bitching because I cannot do anything about it. I cast my vote. I made my opinions known to all who would listen. But you can't change someone's mind... they have to change it on their own. Telling them they are wrong does nothing; showing them they are wrong is what works. Unfortunately, we won't know the full effects of this administration until far after it's gone... and it's already too late to change it.
>>I think Americans in general are some of the most poorly educated, ignorant, close-minded people in the world.<<
Yep, and this extract from your post confirms it:
>>We're seeing thousands of soldiers killed every day in a country that was declared "won" over 3 months ago. Daily beheadings of innocents, including non-Americans and peace keepers, occur every day<<
'Thousands' every day? I don't think so.
'Daily' beheadings would, logically, have to occur every day so your last three words are redundant. So, how many beheadings have occurred over the last week? 5? 7? No? Maybe one.
Best to refrain from rhetoric if you want to make a point in this forum. Stick to facts and you will get a better reception from the likes of me.
An un-eloquent post, badly said. (my last two words are, of course, redundant).
To be honest, Gary, a lot of it is sublimation. We want rid of Blair, but it'll never happen. Our opposition is utterly unelectable (and to be honest, worse than Blair) - so we were hoping to get some vicarious kicks by getting rid of Bush. Same reason as the tabloids trying to get rid of Sven after Blair got off scot-free on the Hutton enquiry.
I can't actually envisage any party than Labour getting elected in the next three elections, just with a smaller turnout each time. Have to say, given that 99.9% of those voting were completely academic AND they had to queue, I was impressed that Americans turned out to vote in such numbers. Every single person voting in California or Texas was completely wasting their time, and they knew it and they still did it.
As for keeping out of American politics, sorry mate, American politics are world politics now.
I don't think Kerry was any more a saviour for the Left than Gordon Brown would be - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
A rant from someone who voted for Bush (me) ...
It's partly because Democrats as a whole come off as arrogant and elitist that really made me distance myself (as someone who's at least capable of breaking for the Democrats) from them this year. Besides which, most of Kerry's issues and stances (as well as the wild suppositions post by the lot of left-wingers) I happen to disagree with. Democrats as a whole conducted themselves very poorly during this election. ...What was this "Anybody but Bush" thing? That automatically alienated more than half the nation from voting for Kerry, because his job approval rating was sitting over 50 percent. More than half of the nation LIKED Bush for pete's sake. For all we know, they voted for him just to spite the Dems.
And DON'T WHINE! I've been listening to Democrats whine for the past four years about the 2000 election, and I'm really not looking forward to listening to them whine for another four years. (I mean ... apart from his admirable foreign policy ambitions, the only other reason I was hoping that Kerry would win is in hopes that I might finally stop hearing the term "stolen election" for the 293,495th time.)
I think those things hurt Kerry and the Democrats as much as anything.
Anyway, Bush won and there's nothing you can do about it. Kick the dust, put your hands in your pocket and accept the facts. If you don't like his policies, then say something about it. That is your right as an American (or your right as a member of the International community). Don't alienate people by calling them names (i.e. Bible-thumping lemmings) or by whining or by making wild and unbelievable accusations (or, if they are true, then make it at least *sound* true). No more silly, malicious protests (face it, toppling that statue of Bush in England was entirely reminiscent of drunk college students) ... they'll distance people from you. Use logical, civil, well-thought-out arguments to state your case. I really didn't like Kerry from the get-go, but I can speak for myself and many right-leaners ... just talk to us. We won't listen if you yell at us. We're not thick. Many of us voted for your guy in 1996 after all. If you really want to get a head start, do it before 2008. ... and that goes for Republicans, too. They should be thanking the stars that Kerry was unclear-of-purpose and that most Americans already liked Bush so they stuck with him.
I really don't care who wins in 2008 ... I just hope it'll be a landslide. I voted for Bush, but I came to the conclusion (inspired by my own brain and NOT by God and NOT by Jerry Fallwell and NOT by inbred hillbillies with rifles pointed to my head and NOT even to spite the disgusted grunts of anit-Bushites) that he was the better man. Nevertheless, WE NEED BETTER CANDIDATES! ... how about a moderate (preferrably a right-leaning one)? Where are the appealing candidates? The third parties even sucked this year. Where are the Ronald Regans and the Franklin Roosevelts? Someone's got to supply something by 2008, or I'll die.
Andrew,
"For once I have to agree with you"... Can I borrow your phrase?
Same thing here in Colorado. We only have 9 electoral votes and I knew when I voted Dem yesterday that it was going to be a Bush victory in this state. We're too heavily entrenched in the defense industry here and the democrats are well known killers of "black" projects. My girl friend is an Engineer in the defense industry on "black" projects and trust me...I didn't even go near her yesterday. She was Bush all the way and there was no changing her mind. Best to avoid the argument he heh.. At least we got our Democrat senator elected, which from our local standpoint is a very good thing.
There's another misconception that is profluent amongst the left. Bush is stupid. Bush isn't stupid. Bush is smarter than hell. He's conservative and being conservative doesn't make him stupid, neither does being from Texas. Democrats in their self righteousness tend to look down at people that don't always talk correctly, a big big mistake. Anybody with a southern drawl has to be an idiot. Well, look who looks stupid today.
You're right. Anyone who assumes that Bush is stupid because of his southern accent is an idiot. However, anyone who judges his stupidity by his actions, seems to have a point.
Who looks stupid today? *glances across the pond*. Um, really wouldn't like to say.
No one is suggesting that we should control American politics - just that American actions should not effect all of us. If they do, then we have a right and a duty to put our oar in.
As the USA is the global superpower and it's screwing up the environment, the complex web of international peace, most of the international systems of law and a fair bit more besides then it is quite right that we should comment on what that country's government does. It directly effects us.
Bush is dumb but he's not stupid. He has some very clever people behind him. The whole neo-con project is based on theft of the world's resources. All I can say to those who voted for Kerry is 'well done - try again next time' but to the American people as a whole I have to say: 'watch it' - the world is against you - lock, stock and two smoking barrels - and if you think you're tough enough, so be it. Just know, you ain't.
I'm angry, hurt and in despair. I love this planet and the people on it. For the first time in my life I fear that we may be in for a very very sticky mess.
Well, keep something in mind folks. American's are decent people, we do have morals and we aren't stupid. We're isonationist at heart.
About 49% of this country doesn't like what's going down. We have our hand on the chain and if Bush or anyone else gets out of hand, we'll pull that chain. Bet on it.
It's not all gloom and doom. Believe it or not, America is your friend, the best damn friend you got in this world. We'd like to think the same of you. What say we act like it?
I couldn't agree more. It's just when you are powerless you tend to hit out at the nearest thing - which for most of us is an American on holiday over here.
Of course most of the toursits are the 'good' Americans - those that want to see the rest of the world, who want to understand and learn from other cultures.
But there is no doubt that you hear that accent and you bristle - it's knee jerk, but entirely understandable. Now we want to shout at them and argue - that's just one step or so away from strapping a bomb to your body, hijacking a plane or whatever - you can see how it so easikly happens. We're going to need a little bit of love in the world and great deal of hard horse trading and brinkmanship to make this one work.
You know, I think I'll whine as much as I please.
You don't have to listen. Just sit there and accept the shovels of bullshit you've been accepting the past four years.
I don't care if it was a Democrat, Libertarian, or my aforementioned monkey in fez hat.... I did not want another 4 years of Bush.
I never said he won unfairly. I blamed it on the ignorance and fear of the American people, and on the fact that Kerry couldn't win the easiest campaign against an incumbant probably since Jimmy Carter-Ronald Reagan.
Will you all drop the royal 'we' please. There seems to be a common belief that all Brits think all Americans are arseholes. Tony, only 4% of all US citizens have a passport, are you suggesting that only 4% of Americans are 'good'? Whenever 'I' hear an American accent 'I' think, 'Oh she/he's an American'. So what? This USphobia is almost as misguided as SD's homophobic assertions and all the bollocks he keeps spouting about evil abusers. I don't care too much for George Bush and thought his father was a ****** too, but then I think Thatcher was a bigger ******. None of that means they are, just that 'I' think so, I wouldn't invoke the royal 'we' on the assumption that every Brit agrees with me.
Hillary vs Arnie in 4 years time. Remember, you heard it hear first. The producers of Alien vs Predator have already been booked to film the next US election as a sequel.
[%sig%]
Take a different tact Tony. Lavish your visiting American with praise, feed him well and then explain your blight in terms he/she understands, they'll be your best friend forever, then you can start slipping the facts in. When he leaves, hug him/her. We love hugs...Hug your local American. Lot's of us don't feel loved and when we get this way bad shit happens. We're much more friendly to friendly people than we are to angry people.
*blushes*
what are you on about mississippi. Trying to call my good name in to reputation, i mean, what are you on about ? What am i spouting about evil abusers. Your talking pure shit. A-i don't really use the word evil and if i have its been in the heat of a moment. B- i don't keep going on about abusers. Unforunetly what i was studying and involved in over the last few years took me to adomain wher these kind of words are mentioned frequently. I would really really appreciate it if you stopped trying to say my name with these words as it gives me the creeps. So give me a break.
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