I went to a barbeque after the last burial I attended. They were mostly republicans there, but I had a good time anyway. Don't think I saw any of them thumping bibles and by golly, most of em' had an education also. As a matter of fact, most had college degrees, some were doctors, engineers, military officers and a few just plain folks and probably all had IQ’s above 120.
For the record, I'm not registered as a Democrat or Republican. I vote Independent, I stay Independent. I use my head and choose after a thorough consideration of the facts, as best I can sift them out of the bullshit. I have issues with Republicans and Democrats alike.
I presently have more negative issues with Republican politics; however, I find on the whole as individuals, I enjoy their company more.
But...comments like yours Justin, make me wonder. The Democrats, as donignacio aptly points out, have a plethora of flakes spouting their own brand of hollow bullshit. In times of trouble, people turn to their faith and the Democrats are not known as the most religiously tolerant bunch in the world.
You don't have to agree with a person’s religious faith to respect it. When you show no respect for their faith, you run the risk of alienating that person. You can't win the heart of somebody by calling him or her stupid.
I've seen the British and European newspaper headlines doing this also, and my question is, who's stupid? Do the editors of the newspapers that running headlines calling half of America dumb think that's a solution. What they are doing is insulting the majority of Americans that don't agree and pissing off more of those that may have agreed but now feel betrayed by the very people they were trying to help. It’s running counter to their own avowed position that it was our intolerance of Muslim beliefs that go us all into this shit in the first place. This same old bullshit thing...”If you don't agree with me, you are stupid.” Well, stupid is as stupid does, and that's about the dumbest approach to solving the problem for the future I've seen yet.
The place to start is to STOP! STOP the Killing! STOP killing people because you don’t like their religion. STOP hating people because you don’t like their religion. STOP trying to shove your religion down everyone’s throat. The Muslims, the Christians, the Jews and all the other’s have been doing this for so long it makes me want to puke. You treat people with respect and dignity, you don’t enslave them, you don’t require subservience, you don’t belittle them. You have to live side-by-side in peace with the very thing you despise before you’ll ever come to understand it.
Tony Cook pointed out earlier, with passion, why he was angry, but he didn't resort to calling Americans stupid for voting for Bush. He derided Bush. I respected his words because there is more truth in those words then somebody railing at a Republican for being a "bible thumping idiot.”
If people don't start talking truth, and keep flapping their bullshit, they're no better than the people they hate. The Democrats in America better find a soul and start acting intelligently. Until they do, many good decent folks will see the likes of Bush as a savior rather than a problem. Many more good and decent folks will die for no good fucking reason. We can’t pick and choose whose religion we’re going to support. We either treat all with an even hand or we better shut the fuck up.
Anyway bush is back, return of the mack
and his drill, not for home improvements-shucks-
but for oil under the soil
sounds like soul
but wheres his soul
wheres the souls of the innocent
all gone for his oil
not chip pan oil
but oil from iraq iran
is that his next tan
shucks
the mack is back
return of the mack
and his military hijack
*crikey*
whats clear to me, is that this so called idea of bringing peace to an instable region, has failed. Not only has it failed, but it's failed SPECTACULARLY. And so what do they do? They step it up. That which has spectacularly failed, they continue to promote, in spades. (Not too bright)
Stop the killing... I agree. But Bush, alas, does not. And as an aside, he has no religious tolerance, he is so wrapped up in his own.
Now you may say that we dont have the right to call people stupid for admiring him, but I disagree. He is a moron and if people vote the warmongering, bible thumping, narrow minded, intolerant bastard in again, then pray tell me, what does it tell you of their values and IQ?
Youre using that word hate again Denver. Please don't endow me with your own values?
Lets put it another way... If the Brits elected the BNP by majority, I'd be horrified. And I'd feel that you calling those people fascist idiots, because thats clearly what they are. It's hardly rocket science.
I feel like, that as an American, I am entitled to calling Americans stupid. I live with them. I see them every day. I have always felt this way. Then, when you see someone re-elected who has OBVIOUSLY flubbed the past four years, regardless of religion, morals, etc., you get a reinforcement of those ideas. I never said people's religions were stupid; my point was, the fell for it when Bush played to their love of God, and that by doing so, it's a hypocrisy of sorts. How can you trust a man who has lied repeatedly to his nation? One that has killed in the name of God? You're absolutely right... STOP the killing. You want to talk about intolerance.... take a gander at the Patriot Act, which Bush signed into law. It might as well read: "If you even LOOK Muslim, leave." I don't feel the need to sugarcoat it to spare people's feelings because I am not running for public office.
As for the rest of the world calling us stupid, I don't blame them. Look at it from their perspective. How smart is it to invade a country that poses no immediate threat to you with the premise that they do? How smart is it to alienate all of your allies? Our president is both dumb and stupid, and we get another 4 years of it. Now THAT is something that makes me want to puke.
I know the Dems feed us bullshit, too. All politicians do. The point is, whose bullshit will harm the country less? Whose will help it more? You can't argue with results.
So, Justinl...
How do you feel about the Racism in your own state? I lived there in Currituck County, and I thought it was one of the most bigoted places short of Louisiana I had ever visited.
Well, dialogue and reaching out is all good and well and I'm all for it, however, according to my experiences it's very difficult to reach out to somebody who tries to live by the book and believes ardently that the Almighty himself is endorsing this point of view and everything and everybody else is wrong.
In terms of a dialogue it's only a matter of time until you hit your head against a wall of scattershot bible quotes and self-righteous indignation in an attempt to reason a little bit further. They're not even allowed to teach their children about Darwin in some of the bible belt States in order to preserve their religious status quo. Under those circumstances, what could you possibly say to those people and, more importantly, what would they be prepared to listen to. Not much, if you ask me!
I think that's what gives many "moderate" people the creeps: The fact that ardent Christians (like ardent Muslims!) are not interested in dialogue at all unless it involves some kind of conversion. You're either for them or against them - as Bush said himself after 9/11 - which basically means it's either on their terms or on no terms at all. Please tell me how the Democrats or anybody else for that matter could practically and possibly reach out to that.
[%sig%]
If he won fair and square, with no cheating then I fear the majority who put him back in power are even more stupid than I suspected. (an incredibly difficult achievent).
I am sick to my (yellow) back teeth of being told to stay out of american politics - fuck that, what those morons do, affects EVERYONE. If you were a tin pot nation whose stupid electoral decisions affected no one but your dim witted selves, then we wouldnt be interested.
Denver, and those who tried to get him out, I am sorry you didnt manage it... fight on.
I think Racism in this country is not limited to this state. You went to a small, rural county, which will generally be more racist than, say, Raleigh, where I live. However, there are different faces of racism in this country. You have your Southern racists, who are of 2 varieties; the brash, in your face redneck and the quiet, subtle racist who breed hate in hushed voices behind a cupped hand. Then, there are your Northern racists, who sneer and stare, or presuppose with their eyes, follow black men in stores to make sure "nothing happens."
What I have noticed is that a racism that is largely ignored is the hatred of the Latino population, particularly the Mexicans. I guess it's a "justified racism," since "most of them" don't speak English, take our jobs (which, incidentally, are usually jobs no one wants to do anyway), and stare at our women.
However, I don't feel like America is alone in its racist stance. I'm under the impression that racism is a global sickness, that you'll find intolerance under pretty much any stone you overturn. What's it like over there in Europe? I remember having an Italian friend in college who was very racist and homophobic. Is he the norm? Or an abberation?
If they keep insulting people who voted for Bush and make fun of religions, they're going to resent you for it. They will never vote Democratic again and they won't look back. Not only is this creating a rift in politics, but a rift in religion.
The reason for the switch to the Republicans are morals. If Democrats could realize that, perhaps, they're pushing the liberal agenda too strongly, they would do well next time.
If you go to this site:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
You'll find a test on where you land on the political compass. Believe it or not, but Kerry landed on the conservative authoritarian side of things, right around where Tony Blair and Gerhard Schroeder fell. Bush, on the other hand, was further right than Ariel Sharon, and as far as historical figures, fell right around where Margaret Thatcher fell.
As for me, I was:
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67
Closest to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama.
Check it out. Point is, Kerry wasn't as immoral as most people tried to believe. His problem was that he was transparent. People could see that he was only saying what the country wanted to hear, even though Bush would say what he really thought, then change it a few days later to what his advisors said he should have thought.
Which takes us into a whole other debate about whether it is the place of political parties to try to get elected on a manifesto they believe in, or to dilute their principles in order to be more electable... I think the latter is what happened to Clinton, and Blair followed suit over here. For all Bush's faults, at least what he stands up and says he believes (perhaps a bit too fervently) - I wasn't really sure what Kerry believed.
I don't think there's much point getting angry with Bush, or his voters. Kerry just never did enough, against a guy that has clearly had a pretty lousy four years - I'm talking domestically here, the fact that I don't support the war doesn't mean that it might not be very popular with some American voters or that it was necessarily a mistake.
Not all, indeed not most, of the people who voted Conservative in the Maggie years were rabid Tories who backed everything she said; a good chunk were just people who thought that the alternative wasn't really up to the job of running the country. Same here, I think.
What we say doesnt affect those who dont care about us Gary. Does it? Unfortunately, what they do, affects us. We certainly shouldve had some say in the election if you ask me... because he is governing the world, and the world has no choice in it.
It makes me sick.
I think Racism is the root of most the worlds problems. As for the Racism towards Hispanic peoples, not very much of it here in Colorado. Very Very strong Hispanic population. Very deeply religious culture. Now, Texas...what I've seen down there makes me very sad.
Here's one of my problems with Bush. He's from Texas, a deeply bigoted society. Is Bush a Bigot? I don't know. If he is, he hides it well. There's evidence to suggest that he's not quite the enlightened "bringer together" he like us to believe. Bigotry is an ingrained cultural thing, you learn it from your family and your friends, you think it's normal and you pass it on to your children. I'd say, there's a high probability that Bush doesn't have minority issues at the front of his agenda, which means he's stuck in the past, which means he isn't going to lead this country much less the world into a better future. Simple things like this play out big when you look at the basic facts. The circumstantial evidence suggests Bush is a racist. He hides it well. He actually laughed about executing a black man in Texas years ago when he was Governor there. You don't see him laughing about white's getting killed do you. He doesn’t value human life unless it votes for him. With all his moral posturing, his soul is empty. His actions betray his words. You didn't see Kerry talking about this did you. Kerry couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag.
So, where is the battleground? It is our own back yards. We have to change the way people think. We have to change what they think about. We have to convince them to use their own intelligence and not react with a jerking knee nor out of fear. You can’t beat it into them, you can’t shout it into them, you can’t insult it into them. You have to convince them and that takes a better argument than what’s been presented so far.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
However, despite Kerry's inability to really drive home his stances on issues, and his propensity to say what he thought the people wanted to hear, I still felt like he was the better candidate, based on the past 4 years, both domestically AND abroad. I felt that electing Kerry would have revived our international credibility almost instantaneously, rather than the current worldwide fear and confusion over what Bush will do next.
Again, I feel like it comes back to fear of change, and in a time where our nation's fear is at an all time high, no one wanted to rock the boat, even if it was taking on water. Bush/Cheney knew that fear was a big element in the campaign, which is why they played to that emotion. One good example was Cheney's inference that, if Kerry was elected, the terrorists would be happier because they'd feel like America would be weaker with Kerry at the helm. It didn't help that Bin Laden seized the opportunity with his newest tape, where he voiced his support for Kerry. Was it posturing by Bin Laden, to coerce the American people to vote Bush, since he knows how much America hates him? Or was it sincere, where he genuinely felt that Kerry would give the world the best chance at ending this conflict? Judging from his past actions, I'd lean toward the former... but one never knows.
You're wrong in part Liana, I'll tell you why. There are people here that do care what the world thinks. I'm one of them, and in some small way I represented your wish's as did 49% of the country. There are many in that 51% that care too. You have no legal right to vote in our election, but your voice is heard. What you need to be aware of, is that blood is thicker than water and there is a great deal of water between the US and England. You're not going to bitch your way to success with America. When you insult my friends or family or neighbors, even if they voted for GWB, you're insulting me (even if I voted for John Kerry) and I'll side with them before I side with you. (I'm generalizing here)...That's a common way of thinking here and no bitching or threatening or manipulation is going to change it. Your best recourse, in my humble opinion, is as I've already suggested (in a light hearted and off handed way) in my earlier posts. We're friends, you can keep it that way or not. Do you treat your personal friends like this when they do something you don't agree with. Do you insult their family and their beliefs because you don't like the color of their car? Cooler heads will prevail, that's all I'm saying. For everyone that doesn't do what you want to be a moron is...welll...moronic.
oddly enough, I put what is right, before the blood is thicker than water thing... thats clan behaviour, and it's what starts, and perpetuates wars.
I know you care, and I know that many others do. Read my post again, and you'll see that.
I also think Bush is somewhat of a bigot.
I've read quotes he's made (can't find them currently) and if you look at the Patriot Act, that's racial profiling at its finest.
I'll try and explain it another way... you know how slaves had no say in what their masters did/treated them? That was wrong... and we ARE affected by american politics... terribly affected, but we cant control it. Thats why we get so angry, and feel such depair about it.
I've been at Uni today, with mostly young kids - they are literally shaking their heads, stunned at the fact that he got back in. They feel impotent. Thats because they are... and they shouldnt be... it's wrong. If it didnt affect us and the rest of the world so negatively, we wouldnt care either.
You see?
Human's have been clanning since the dawn of existence. This will never change. American's are no exception to that rule. How do you think we got to the top of the food chain?
Well one reason some people voted for Bush was for their own best interest. Colorado beiing a prime example. The military establishment carries a great deal of political clout at election time. I'm a very strong believer in keeping a very strong military, so I understand this mentality. The Democrats (and I've witnessed this first hand) can fuck the military up, meaning "not prepared". Clinton did it. Carter was our biggest security nightmare. Our military fell apart. That's not to say I advocate the way the military is being used though. I want to be able to kick any ass we need to kick. I don't believe in kicking ass because God told me to do it. I don't want to be the worlds police. I just don't want people flying passenger jets into my office either.
My political compass was on the southeast quadrant. Why aren't there any other famous people with me? It looks like I'm mirroring Tony Blair, across the x-axis, though.
(A lot of those questions were loaded by the way. I think I knew what the writer was getting at, politically, but I can imagine that 99.9 percent of the people would answer the same on them.)
Pages