Indigo Children: Bollocks or Buddhas?

Couldn't agree more. Alot of the personality questionnaires (to determine whether you are indigo or not) are so lengthy and all-encompassing that to fail to be classed as an indigo would be a mircale in itself. I watched a prog a while back about indigos and most of the mums were either mystics themselves or parents with children suffering from add, etc. You're right, they'd rather their children be 'special' (indigo) than suffering from some mental/physical problem which requires time, effort and alot of emotional expenditure to remedy. When I visit mysticism forums I argue about indigo all the time. One woman (who claims to be in regular contact with God and the astral realms) claims that 99% of children born are now indigo (or since the 1980's.) Where she gets this statistic from is beyond me - and I mean literally - because she 'received' the percentage from the otherworld. The mystic's greatest get-out clause - if you can't prove it empirically then create a realm inaccessible to 'us mere mortals'. People in the states are paying hundreds of dollars to be invited to sit in conference rooms with their children whereby they are privileged enough to be told 'officially' that their kids are special, lol. The 99% of kids born since the 80's who are destined to change our world are demonstrating their advanced spirituality in some very ironic ways, don't you think! Give the rogues their due - they know how to make a quick buck through talking complete shite. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Wow. If a kid is a bit precocious, a bit rowdy or seems a bit confident, it must be due to spiritual intervention or powers beyond this realm. Right? Can't people just be the way they are because they are? Amazing things can happen without ever needing to explain them by introducing new and amazing powers, gifts, realms and entities into the equation. Conversely, you don't need to think your child is extraordinarily gifted to let them be creative, or to help them to be so. You can just do that you know, without recourse to unearthly spirits to prop up your decision. Cheers, Mark

People want to believe things so they make things up or read about it or see it on TV or something and eventually convince themselves it is true and that it applies to them. It is bullshit. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Well, apparently my middle child is an Indigo Child. How else can I explain her out of control behaviour? Her ADHD? Her abhorrence to authority? Wow. I am a lucky mum. There was me thinking I have a future anarchist within my walls. Instead, I have a esp specialist in the making. Ack!

I forgot to say - what a load of bullshit.

here we go. Below is a traits list which would determine whether you are indigo or not. Now a very simply process is at work here and I'm stunned that the people attracted to this don't see straight through it immediately. It's simple: this list is a pyscological model of the 'type' who would be attracted to the indigo 'idea' - that's all. So transparent, but one of the dominant traits of these people is an eagerness to believe. If you ever happen to discredit a mystic with hard facts then be prepared for the gnashing of teeth. Sensitive, insecure and escapist to the hilt. This list is for the 'first wave' of indigo adults, btw. ~ Were born en masse between 1969 and 1987 (With stragglers before and after). ~ Highly intelligent in their "Own Way." ~ Are literally "wired differently" than other people. ~ Many have strong or unusual Psychic and Telekinetic abilities. ~ Have extraordinary levels of compassion. ~ Have purple/UV as their favorite color or see it in their dreams. ~ Have an affinity to Knights, Castles, and Dragons. ~ Shut down psychic abilities because it scares people. ~Feel like they could be one of the characters on the 1980's television series "The Misfits of Science" or one of the young people in Xavier's school for the gifted in the recent movies from the comic books "The X-Men." ~ Many times get along better with animals and nature than people. ~ Have a bond/connection to the trees, and nature in general. ~ Can relate well to children and or the elderly. ~ Creative, inventive, and very intuitive. ~ Involve themselves in human/animal rights efforts. ~ Have an innate sense of "oneness" and connectedness to all of creation. Get confused and disturbed when others don't share their reality of "at-one-ment." ~ High capacity for love, and therefore others may feel uncomfortable by their intensity. ~ Very sensitive, sometimes "Hyper Sensitive" and may not be able to distinguish between the emotional fields of those around them and their own personal emotions. ~ May go through periods of apathy and cynicism as coping mechanisms. ~ Intense longing for "their own kind"….Soul Mates…but don't know where to look. ~ Have what I endearingly term H.D.D. or "Hug Deficit Disorder" and need immense amounts of physical touching, hugs, and love to "cuddle." ~ Because of being misunderstood and then betrayed, may develop strong trust issues, and therefore keep many of their thoughts, feelings and opinions to themselves. ~ About 30% have difficulties expressing them selves, especially in writing. NOTE: If you read some of the poorly written correspondence from some of these First Wave Indigos, you would assume they were uneducated and nearly illiterate, but the truth is, that these same people can also be speed readers and can absorb information in seconds that would take others minutes to understand and retain. ~ Very disciplined when properly motivated. ~ Get bored and or frustrated in school. ~ Male Indigos (and many Females) for the most part don't "do authority" very well because most of the time they are smarter than those in authority. ~ Many find themselves in "Alternative Schools." ~ Female Indigos seem to be able to cope better with the school systems than their male counterparts. ~Have a strong sense of truth, ethics, justice and freedom. (That is why "authority figures" many times irritate and frustrate them). When these are in jeopardy, will give their "all" for their cause, and many times feel they would rather die than give-in to tyranny and deception. ~ Many are labeled "Dyslexic" and find themselves in "Special Classes" at school that usually never work for them. ~Indigos have a strong desire to know "why" …and if they don't see "the point" in something, (or if is it isn't explained properly), will feel it is simply not worth their time/energy and will either react with resistance or just simply "blow off" the people/things that seem not worth their time and energy. ~ Innately have their own ways of calculation and many have been accused of cheating in school because they do the answers in their head and cannot show their work. ~ Indigos have an evolved awareness of how things work, therefore, many of the rigid rules and methods of learning Math, English, and Physics (NOT metaphysics or quantum physics) make no sense to them. ~All First wave Indigos have what might be termed as "A Gift of Healing" ....whether it is making people feel better with their humor and wit, hands on healing, animal and plant healing, healing with music and tone, or healing with new "unproven" methods.. …some of which are natural and need no external training for. ~Many Indigos have "Telepathic Healing" abilities and long distances make no difference to the efficiency of their work. ~ Because of their expanded perception, unusual creativity, wanting to try new things, and running way ahead of what is being taught in class, many were diagnosed as having Attention Deficit Disorder, and put on Ritalin as children. ~Most Indigo's (especially males) have a high innate aptitude for computers/electronics and or auto mechanics. It is common for them to "Just Know" how to operate and trouble shoot with very little help from a book or an instructor. ~First Wave Indigo's are extremely creative, and express this innate skill in many (and often times OUTRAGEOUS forms.) These skills manifest in: Drawing, Painting, Sculpting, Decorating, Photography, Writing (in sometimes very extreme and unique ways), Making Blueprints and Prototypes, Composing and Playing Music….(even if they have never had lessons), inventing games, and creating new & more efficient ways of doing things. ~Very few Indigos are interested in aggressive sports such as Football and Hockey. They would rather spend their physical exercise time and energy in personal achievement and outdoor sports such as track & field, skateboarding, mountain climbing, cycling, kayaking, etc. They are also attracted to discipline and self-defense sports such as Fencing and Martial Arts ~Because of their feeling so foreign to this planet, a very high percentage of Indigos have been put on "Antidepressants" to make them appear "Normal" and fit in our society….this is just a temporary fix though, and only adds to their challenges. ~Many Indigos are drawn to Theatrics, Drama, and Stand-up Comedy. In these venues they can "pretend to be someone else" when actually they are using this as an outlet to vent and express their own views and pent up emotions. It is also a place for "misfits" to find a place of refuge and "fit in". ~ Because of their feeling so "alien" here, many go through periods of severe grief, loneliness, and displacement…..and may turn to drugs, alcohol, or attempt suicide for a way out. ~One trademark that a high % of First Wave Indigos have, is living through extreme hardships as children, teenagers, and young adults. Many were born into family situations that were physically, emotionally, spiritually and psychically abusive. These Indigos had to figure out how to balance and keep their inherent integrity levels, while being subjected to painful and life shattering experiences. A large % were inplanted in such horrendous situations as: organized crime, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and even ritual/cult abuse & mind control. It is also common for First Wave Indigos to have some kind of Alien encounters. NOTE: There seems to be a Dark Agenda on this planet to keep Indigos from waking up and taking on the mantle of power they have inside. That is why so many Indigos have been sucked into such harsh and debilitating environments. The dichotomy is, that Indigos innately know that in order to transform the corruption, pollution, and dysfunction on this planet, you have to go inside to the core or mind of the system to know how it operates and thus how to change, alter and bust that system. Indigos came here to bring order and balance back to a planet in chaos…..and headed for distraction. I believe that Indigos are the 5th element that has come as part of "The Cosmic Clean-up Crew" to rid the planet of corrupted consciousness and physical/energetic diseases that are imprisoning, destroying and mutating all life forms here! ~Many have been the recipient of a "Shove-In" (see Laura Lee's book "Living in an Indigo House" for more information on Walk-Ins and Shove-Ins) because of their deep empathic abilities. This can add to the pain and insanity in their lives. NOTE: Shove-Ins can be removed and taken to their proper place through a session with Laura Lee and her Ghostbusting partner Ronnie. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

I have loads of the characteristics, such as feeling like royalty but I go to meetings that help me deal with this now jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Hmm. Rereading 'Cat's Cradle' at the moment. Kurt Vonnegut says: "Anyone who cannot understand how a useful religion can be founded on lies will not understand this book." He's also made other comments at various times to the effect that truth can go to heck - we become better people by believing in ludicrous lies. So I guess that applies here, to an extent, if people can love their children better by believing in this Indigo Child stuff, fair enough. It's no more bollocks than many of the ideas that cynics exchange as cod-wisdom, or indeed, most of what Oscar Wilde came out with. Different people find comfort in different untruths - usually ones that provide the illusion of truth in very simplistic terms. What *is* offensive, however, is how painfully dull the whole myth is. It's psuedo-mythical, flower-powered, sub-sub-X-Men tedium of the worst kind. It's like some kind of Neo-religion for Pre-schoolers. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

yes. especially the colour of sound. I can also taste smells. weird, but i think most musicians can sense colour in sound because mixing and mastering is often referred to "colouring" a track. Many brand processors have their own unique colour and are used for the purpose of applying certain colours to instruments (such as tube amps and certain reverbs.) Beach Boys pet sounds does it for me colourwise. It's overflowing with a firework spectacular of colour. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

Yes, Newcastle Brown Ale *tastes* brown. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Yeah, all this sounds like experience association rather than synesthesia. "I can also taste smells." Oh, come on. Taste *is* smell, except for sweet, salt, bitter, sour. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

Oh - I didn't mean to imply that I had synesthesia - far from it. Sometimes when I say something tastes like petrol I'll get a response like, "how do you know that when you haven't tasted petrol?" But what I mean to say is that somethng tastes like petrol smells. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

'Yeah, all this sounds like experience association rather than synesthesia.' Jack, excuse my ignorance here, but when you say this do you mean that AG may be associating the colour green with Bach or Bach with the colour green because she may have been chewing on a lettuce leaf or something when she first heard his music? I find that wanting because, given my personal example above, the first time I heard 'Pet Sounds' I was sitting in the dark wearing headphones. I can understand the fact that when we mutter a word such as "teapot" a group of neurons will fire and present an image of a teapot in the mind's eye, but how to explain the brain associating a colour with a piece of music or vice verse, I dunno... There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

File this one under bullshit interpreted as glossolalia.

Chains and ricochets of experiences, yan - make some effort! I've been listening to John Power recently, which is a warm mahogany colour, because the drum beats sound very woody and he mentions autumn a couple of times, and all sorts of other reasons. Sometimes you have to think about it, but most sensory experiences can be described in terms of others. Why is it whenever people describe synesthesia they always make it sound like a a dead duck of a superpower? I'm Man-Man - I was bitten by a radioactive man. Now I have the powers of a man. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

I thought you played guitar, Jack. Here's a piece from : http://www.musicianshotline.com/education/200610_educationcenter_eartrai... "Focus on Listening and Color your Music with Perfect Pitch. Perfect pitch is easy to understand. It’s just “color hearing” – very much like the way the eye sees visual color. In the field of sight we can perceive all the colors of the rainbow – red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet - because of different wave frequencies. Red light waves vibrate slowly, and yellow light waves vibrate faster; violet light vibrates fastest of all. For some reason, the eye is able to discern distinct and very beautiful colors according to the frequency of the light waves. It’s the same with musical pitch. All the tones on a piano or a guitar are just a sound spectrum - the tones at the high end have sound waves which vibrate quickly, and the low tones vibrate slowly. If the ear is wide awake, it will hear delicate sound colors which it can learn to identify, much the same way as the eye identifies different light waves as different visual colors. This is color hearing - perfect pitch. Perfect pitch does not mean that you associate visual colors with tones - for example, thinking of F sharp as red, G as green, etc. Rather, it is the perception of precise sound colors which are heard, not seen. If this seems a little unusual, it is only due to unfamiliarity with the experience." As I said before, musicians use certain processors (such as tube-amps) because they have certain colours. Many composers hear in colour. How can you justify your theory when it comes to the colour of an outboard processor? There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

I think the problem with this sort of thing (back to the “Indigo Children” topic, btw), is that people who use such labels tend to shroud the actual real truth of the matter in mystical-speak, thus alienating people from the real cause and therefore shooting themselves in the foot in the process (or perhaps more accurately shooting the feet of those they claim to be helping/supporting). Indigo Kids = gifted/creative/spiritual. Many kids have one or more of these traits, but lose them as they get older, have them suppressed for various reasons or are “misunderstood” or mis-labelled. Kids who are abnormally “gifted” in some way do, most likely, have a lot to offer the world – but is labelling them as “Indigo” really going to help their potential to be realised? I think not! Psychologists/psychiatrists certainly don’t have all the answers, but it doesn’t make sense to shun all that these and other scientists have given to the world, in favour of “higher” truths. I believe in “higher” (or perhaps “deeper”) truths… But I believe they can be arrived at through all, and not just “mystical,” forms of knowledge. [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

I never said it didn't exist just because I didn't experience it. It just seems to me that synesthesia is one of those things, like schizophrenia or ADD, that makes people go, "Oh, I think I've got that!" when they hear about it, because basic descriptions make them sound like very normal things. It's pretty normal to associate music with certain colours - and pop music in particular as some sort of aural firework display - just like it's normal to identify different aspects of your personality that seem to be at war with one another. You have to get an expert opinion before you diagnose yourself as being mentally crosswired. Yan - that whole extract you quoted is blatantly just wielding colour as a metaphor. One might equally switch the whole thing around and describe colour in terms of different musical chordings. You don't actually *hear* colour, since the specific definition is to do with light wavelengths, and you don't actually *see* music. But what you see and hear can be described in such terms because of the parallels between these senses. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

AG said... "I think this whole idea of indigo children is just silly" Well… I don’t think the central idea is silly… What I was trying to say above was that I think it’s a question of packaging. If an idea is a machine, the machine may be useful and have all the right parts and basically work, but if you encase it in a box which has dolphins and butterflies on it and call it the PsychoMagnotron 2000… it kind of loses its credibility, doesn’t it? If you trim away all the crap (and there’s a lot of crap) of this “Indigo Children” idea, there seems to be a core of sense and something that may actually be useful… Intelligent, creative, spiritually-minded kids need to be nurtured and supported more, and if they are allowed to believe in their talents, they can do a lot of good for the world. See what I mean? It is, of course, totally possible that such kids are imbued with some kind of spiritual GodChip, or they are direct descendants of Christ or whatever, but when we focus on this stuff, we are kind of missing the point. Jesus did speak to people about esoteric, mystical-religious stuff (more of which can be found in the Gnostic Gospels than in the “traditional” New Testament), but his core message about being nice to people was what he was most famous for – and isn’t that what really matters? I think the Indigo Children movement is probably more likely, in the long term, to damage the children whose status they are supposedly elevating. [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

Human-centrism again...duh...all our existence is and will be is a momentary, insignificant, nanosecond flash of light and energy in the universal 'tale' - billions of years passed before us and billions will pass when we're gone. Not to say that we're not unique seeing as we're (so far) the only part of the cosmos that can address itself, but if you study the history of this indigo idea you'll discover that its origins are even more contrived and fake than the resulting 'indigo' thing! I feel sorry for these poor kids; they're in no better a position than kids who have christianity or islam forced upon them before they're responsible and intelligent enough to make their own life choices. As Dawkins said (yeah, I love that guy:) "There are no christian or islamic children, only christian and islamic parents." There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

AG: “But shouldn't *all* kids be nurtured and supported more and allowed to believe in their talents?” Well yes they should, but… Speaking as someone who is the partner of someone who studied giftedness in depth for several years, I believe that the balance, in terms of the support and understanding that is available, is weighted in favour of more obviously “underprivileged” kids. Being “gifted” (and I am speaking about kids who just can’t fit into a normal school) can be as much of a handicap as being autistic, having ADHD or whatever. In terms of a child’s emotional life, it makes no difference whether you exist at the extreme right or the extreme left of the bell curve. The problem with helping gifted kids to realise their potential is that, in many people’s eyes, it smacks of “elitism” (my girlfriend was accused, by a lecturer at the uni where she was studying, of just such a thing) and we fear the creation of a Nazi-like superhuman race or whatever. Whereas all it’s really about is helping gifted kids, like any other kids, feel like they have somewhere where they belong. Yan: "Human-centrism again..." Very true, but best make the most of it while we're here, eh? [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

"blowing shit up" = cool! There's a lot to be said for being saved the "tedium of everyday school life"... ;-) If I recall my other half's gifted kids studies correctly, yes the situation is much better in the States... [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

Pepsoid said above: "it makes no difference whether you exist at the extreme right or the extreme left of the bell curve. The problem with helping gifted kids to realise their potential is that, in many people’s eyes, it smacks of “elitism” (my girlfriend was accused, by a lecturer at the uni where she was studying, of just such a thing). Whereas all it’s really about is helping gifted kids, like any other kids, feel like they have somewhere where they belong." There is a bit of a difference though, isn't there? If you're at one end of the curve you are going to find many things in life significantly more difficult, based on the fact that you are less proficient than the average rather than more proficient end of the curve. In a situation of limited resources, I'd always say give the resources to the people who need them the most. If someone is unhappy because they might get eight GCSE rather than twelve, I'd say sod them. They're doing okay. Give the resources to the person who's struggling to get one GCSE. As far as I understood, school wasn't about helping people to find a place to belong. That's your own job, and I can't see the value in throwing loads of resources at people who will probably find their own way anyway, regardless. In the grand scheme of things, as long as you come out of school with enough qualifications to do something else next, school means f**k all to how you turn out. I'm not buying the line that 'gifted' children suffer far more from being under stretched. Give them a bus pass and tell them to get out and explore the world and to stop worrying so much about school. They'll be okay. They're better at thinking than other people, if we're taking Pepsoid's proposition as any measure. Cheers, Mark

Strongly agree with Mark on this. Not a lot of sympathy for these 'gifted' kids when alienation is par for the course in society anyway. Who decided that they have a monopoly on finding school immeasurably tedious? I'm sorry, but I do also think that there's something vaguely fetishistic about 'helping' these kids, like we want to see if we can kindle some kind of godlike powers in them or something. It's a bit crass how society largely ignores or pities people who have learning disabilities but wets its pants when the spotlight is turned on some child who's supposedly going to cure cancer with the power of his mind. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

The vast majority of people involved in this indigo illusion are escapists, fantasists, emotionally unstable, world-weary loonies, and those who just want to be different for the hell of it. Alot of them (whom I deal with in mysticism forums all the time) have no apparent disabilities whatsoever other than the inability to understand the concept of reason. Here's an admirable comment from a member of a forum I visit regularly:- "well apart from my mom believing im an indigo child, i read up on indigo, crystal, and rainbow children and i have a few characteristics of all of them, but......i also heard about "lightworkers" that they are not indigo, crystal, or rainbow but are here to help these kind of kids, and i have the most characteristics of a lightworker, so to burst my moms bubble, i do not believe i am indigo, crystal, or rainbow.......but i dont want to call myself a lightworker either altho i do have a ton of traits of one, frankly i dont want to call myself anything! lol, because why call myself something just to appear special above everyone else, and plus giving myself a label makes me self conscious about it all the time and i find myself trying to be that way constantly, and if i dont call myself anything, well, i can just be myserlf, and isnt that whats really important? (corny clapping of hands in the background)" The amount of times members have threatened to mutilate my soul over this argument! There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennett

"Being “gifted” (and I am speaking about kids who just can’t fit into a normal school) can be as much of a handicap as being autistic, having ADHD or whatever." Well, being an Olympic sprinter and being born with no legs both have their particular challenges but given the choice...

Having three children, one perfectly average academically, one very much above average, and one dyslexic and dyspraxic child, I can tell you that the less able ones do get more help in education. When they dont have help, they withdraw. An able child gets fuck all help in my experience and ends up destructive, miserable and feeling really crap about school. You may consider this less of a problem, I dont. Giving a 5 year old a bus pass and telling them to go out and stop worrying about school is a pretty facile thing to say. Both ends of the spectrum need extra effort. As a parent I do what I can, and I think i do really well. When asked if I'd allow the child to sit detention for negative attitude, then my answer was no, frankly. They moved her up a year and lo and behold the problem stopped.

Interesting conversation this. I have no idea what 'indigo children' are, but I am aware of the 'special needs' catagory, which in schools today counts the whole spectrum from learning difficutlies to high ablity... As part of my teacher training I am expected to be able to plan and teach classes which differentiate for ALL levels of pupils. I am expected to give tasks that suit all pupils. I am expected to have extention tasks for more gifted children.. and if appropriate use them to aid less able. In fact this is a good way of reiterating and enhancing all pupils' learning. It is great that I am expected to do this. There is this thing, a really policy, called 'Every Child Matters'. I think it is very cool. I think it is a good thing. A lot of resources have gone into helping less able children, and that is brilliant. Why should school not bring out the best in every child? In theory in any case. I am more than happy to plan my lessons for both sides. I feel terrible if I get to the end of a lesson and some kid has finished the work ages ago and is bored. Why should that happen? "In a situation of limited resources, I'd always say give the resources to the people who need them the most. If someone is unhappy because they might get eight GCSE rather than twelve, I'd say sod them. They're doing okay. Give the resources to the person who's struggling to get one GCSE." Interesting point - but the resources we are talking here, in many cases, are the resources the teachers have available. I think people have problem with the word 'gifted', as though some people are born better than others. If it makes you feel better think of it as 'further along the learning path' rather than gifted. Personally, I get a huge kick from challenging both sides of the spectrum, and don't forget all those in the middle who nobody talks about and are often forgotten.

Cath, I wasn't telling anyone to give a five year old a bus pass. I was thinking primarily of secondary school, and the output of exams. It's a fair while since I was at primary school, and I'm unsure how 'standard' my primary education was. I was a bit on the gifted side, and eventually changed schools because of it. I only got a bit more bolshy, and unhappy, when I went to a new school where things were slightly less freewheeling than at my previous one. I did benefit from the input of some more unconventional teaching when at primary school, and was seemingly free of any sort of structured assessment. I was disagreeing with Pepsoid's statement that it was equally as hard for gifted kids as kids who were struggling. I was also disagreeing with the provision of extra (beyond teaching) resources for 'gifted' kids. Fergal raises some points that I hadn't really thought about, in that the actually resource that is in use is usually teachers time. Doing extra stuff in class is, of course, correct. I was thinking of being taken away and having something really special done with you, with special teaching etc. My understanding of gifted is slightly different from yours Fergal, and was following the lead of this thread, meaning children who were innately more able (taken from Persoid's bell curve / normal distribution example), rather than kids who had achieved more, or who could achieve quicker. I still spend most of my life being as bored as when I was at school. Cheers, Mark

Yeah I got that Mark. I think the problem is when anyone talks about 'school' they are predominantly talking about school through their own eyes and how they experienced it... I know for a fact that the way I am expected to teach now is nothing like how teachers taught me at school... we never had starters and pleneries and all those other things. We never had a SEN register on every single child when I was at school, whereas now against every name in my register I have reading ages, abilities, skills, difficulties etc. I didn't know any of this till I started teaching, but certainly my idea of 'school' and 'teaching' and 'gifted' has changed since I began. It has changed so much. And I stand by the Every Child Matters thing. It is huge now... A lot of the 'gifted and talented' kids in school get extra things to do, like creative writing classes, or extra maths, or all sorts of things. I was lucky enough to mentor on nationwide Gifted and Talented scheme in Creative Writing. The kids were all 14-17 and various abilities in the above average catagory. It was integral to their self-esteem and sense of self. I just feel that every single person, in an ideal world, would be encouraged to develop a solid and self-believing sense of self. Gifted or no. Maybe, in a year's time I will feel different and my - already difficult and many hours of work - job will be far to consuming to be able to cater to all kids, but I can but try.

I had a bit of a crash course in 'Every Child Matters' the other week when writing a proposal for a project working with young people. I think, possibly, our notion of what education and educational establishments are for has changed. We all expect a lot more of schools now, rightly or wrongly, as they are the primary way that people are socialised. I do agree that every child should be able to achieve to the best of their ability, and has a right to a number of things that make this possible. What I'm not sure about is the best of their ability bit, or whether all achievement can or should lie in school. Surely there's a limit to what a school can do? Or a limit to what it can be expected to do? It seems that we have a sense of every young person, everywhere, teetering on the brink of some dramatic precipice, ready to fall in unless a swift, meaningful intervention is made. Every young person is a potential tragedy, so to speak, ready to be eaten up by the terrible modern world. Cheers, Mark

All kids - gifted or less gifted - suffer from being taught badly. To do their jobs properly, teachers need to understand the abilities of the kids they're teaching and - as much as they're allowed to - give them work that's relevant to their ability and stretches them enough to keep them interested. I don't accept that this means that being gifted is equally difficult to not being gifted. Like Mark, I strongly question whether it's the job of schools to provide young people with 'self-esteem and a sense of self'. If this is the case I think schools are - in youth work speak - being 'set up to fail'. I'm speaking as someone who would fall into the gifted category, did have a bad time at school and has suffered from low self-esteem and a questionable sense of self both while in education and afterwards. Unfortunately it was beyond the bounds of my teacher's abilities to change the fact that I'm a skinny kid with glasses with a strong interested in poetry and politics in school full of kids who were less weird. That was why I had low self-esteem. I've always been quite comfortable with being clever. If I'd been a skinny kid a skinny kid with glasses with a strong interested in poetry and politics, who had also been semi-literate and unable to add up my school career and subsequent life would have been much more difficult.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Cath... Some of the comments above demonstrate just how the whole “gifted” concept is misconstrued. I’m not talking about kids who get 8 GCSE’s rather than 1 (or none). I’m not talking about kids who are just generally higher achievers than average. Gifted kids often don’t achieve. They are not challenged, therefore they, as Cath says, withdraw and end up “destructive, miserable and feeling really crap about school.” If their giftedness is not recognised and worked with, they don’t become Olympic athletes, Prime Ministers, CEO’s of companies or whatever... They become as lost in the forgotten parts of society as those with other forms of “learning disability” - because it is just another form of learning disability, if they are inhibited from learning because they are grossly underchallanged. I knew someone who undoubtedly was gifted, but was “educated” in a less-than-progressive school and was therefore treated as a disruptive, cocky kid with special needs, and made to sit at the back of the class - thus missing out on even the “normal” learning, never mind the social and emotional difficulties this treatment caused them to suffer. Gifted kids - really gifted - can’t be just left to “get on with it” - they won’t “get on with it”! Again, to quote Cath... “Both ends of the spectrum need extra effort.” Finally, this comment from Jack is just the sort of thing that really gets my goat... I'm sorry, but I do also think that there's something vaguely fetishistic about 'helping' these kids, like we want to see if we can kindle some kind of godlike powers in them or something. What?!! Feteshistic?!! These are children we’re talking about, Jack! However intelligent or whatever they are, they have just the same sort of needs as any other children. This is exactly the sort of anti-gifted prejudice I was talking about... Helping kids (gifted or otherwise) to realise their potential doesn’t mean we want to create a Nazi Super-race!!! [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

Maybe we *are* expecting too much of schools. God, the teacher's workload is ridiculous, and they're always hearing about their 'big holidays'... most teachers I know, ones who take their jobs seriously, get to school before 8 and leave at 5-6 and then get home and plan and mark until very late. They also spend weekends planning and sourcing resources. I see no harm in schools encouraging 'self-esteem and a sense of self'... I mean, children spend all those hours every day there, for all those years... I don't see that doing those things automatically means: "It seems that we have a sense of every young person, everywhere, teetering on the brink of some dramatic precipice, ready to fall in unless a swift, meaningful intervention is made. Every young person is a potential tragedy, so to speak, ready to be eaten up by the terrible modern world." No! It doesn't mean that at all Mark, I don't think. I think it is more a case that as a society we are more aware that the traditional idea of school isn't necessarily the way to go, and that instead of that 'dramatic precipice' or a 'swift, meaningful intervention' it is more a case of developing a child's skills over their whole school career, encouraging, spotting and expanding on these and not just saying, 'Unfortunately it was beyond the bounds of (my) teacher's abilities to change the fact that I'm a skinny kid with glasses with a strong interested in poetry and politics in school full of kids who were less weird.' That is a cop out, I feel. And also, to get to adulthood and truly believe that you were the only weird child at school with your own interests and differences is probably not the most healthy thing. School can make such a difference in life, if it is done right. "I'm speaking as someone who would fall into the gifted category, did have a bad time at school and has suffered from low self-esteem and a questionable sense of self both while in education and afterwards." Yes, so maybe you do agree with me that schools should be looking at the whole child and not just learning a few facts. I see it as my job, particularly in my subject, to help pupils learn how to argue a point, how to back up their own opinion, to empathise with others, to learn how to express themselves in ways that benefit themselves and others. I know I cannot help every single kid in the world, lord, I may even turn out to be a terrible teacher, but it is worth a shot. I want it to. You would be amazed how many people think I'm doing the teaching as a gap between proper 'writing'... then when they see I have a first class degree they wonder why I am not doing something more 'exciting'... I had the chance to be a writer full time and I don't want to. I think teaching is one of the Good things to do. I think you can do a lot in that capacity. And this comes from someone who was above average at school, who was ginger, with braces, chubby and was once punched so hard in the face that her brace went through my upper lip.

If only all teachers were like you, Ferg... ;-) (my dad was a teacher, btw, so I totally know what you mean about the long hours, high expectations, etc) [[[~P~]]] ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com - latest... "Disappearing Robots")

"That is a cop out, I feel. And also, to get to adulthood and truly believe that you were the only weird child at school with your own interests and differences is probably not the most healthy thing." As far as I know, I didn't say I was the only child at my school in that position. Most schools have a large percentage of kids who feel 'different' and unhappy, and some people who feel at home and happy in school are never able to recreate that sense of belonging and self-worth in the outside world. What I was questionning was whether teachers are responsible for providing a sense of worth (or otherwise). Other points need more but now leaving office...

It sounds like the old bollox about how there is a fine line between genius and insanity. Hardly. The fine line is between being a genius and being a con artist. Insanity is very easy to spot and has naught to do with genius. "You don't need the light of the Lord to read the handwriting on the wall." Copies of Warsaw Tales available through www.new-ink.org

'Unfortunately it was beyond the bounds of my teacher's abilities to change the fact that I'm a skinny kid with glasses with a strong interested in poetry and politics in school full of kids who were less weird.' It was there that I thought you were saying you were the worse of in your school. Sorry if that is not what you meant. Maybe it is not the job of teachers to provide self worth... but it is a biproduct of good teaching is it not?

"What?!! Feteshistic?!! These are children we’re talking about, Jack! " Egg-fucking-zactly. They shouldn't be treated like puzzle boxes whose 'potential' needs to be unleashed upon the world through the right deft manoeuvres. Who gives a damn if they don't grow up to be presidents and Olympic athletes? *They* might want to do things their own way. If you can stop them being destructive by moving them up a year, then do it, and move onto the children whose destructiveness isn't such a simple problem. And you can't complain about charges of elitism if you insist on calling them 'gifted'. I mean, for Christ's sake. 'Gifted'! You might as well go ahead and call them 'Indigo Children'. "Gifted kids - really gifted - can’t be just left to “get on with it” - they won’t “get on with it”! " So how exactly do you tell the difference between a gifted kid and a lazy kid? There was a guy I knew at school whose parents clearly believed he was 'gifted' - they moved him up a year, got him extra tuition, encouraged him to get involved in all the extra-curricular activities and harangued the school every time they felt he wasn't getting the right preferential treatment. And yeah, he was probably 'gifted' in the sense that you're talking about - he won clutches of awards every year for excellence in all fields. He just got himself expelled right before his A Levels because all this ridiculous treatment *made* him more and more stupid and arrogant and destructive. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

sighs

Cath, like you, I have a 'gifted' child and a very dyslexic child. The older one is in year 9, in the first year of his GCSE's for MAths and Science, and expected to get A and A*. This is all great, but can we get him to do homework? He rarely gets punished because he's 'gifted'. The 11 year old, who also has homework issues, gets loads of help for her learning difficulties, and loads of detentions for missed work. Somehow, that's not fair on her. I'm glad they're pushing Tom, but they are also teaching him that if you're special, you can get away with murder. And that's not so good.