Top Up Fees

I would be happy to do the deed for you 'wittingly' honey, just point me in the right direction.

Am in favour of top-up fees as long as they come with the type of student loan guarantees we have already re minimum income etc as usual the Blair govt is on right course

Tony.. this means that instead of taking a £4,000 a year loan (which i DONT mind, and i think is fair enough - I will be repaying it), i would have to take out something like £10,00 a year for three years. I will be paying back for decades.. its knobbish wa.nk from Blair gove, as usual. Right on course. Have you any idea how much the repayments are? No, dont answer.. of course you dont.

oh lord... i wish you would think before you type tony, you dont half make yourself look like a tit sometimes.... no, it wont affect me - but it will affect people LIKE me. That means other mature students...kids from poorer families... people trying to get out of benefits say - well they wont bother will they? And children... my children for instance. I wouldnt want them to be forking out so much... the country NEEDS to educate its own kids... it should happen without question, should it not? Already we are running short of doctors, teachers... we are importing them from other countries... ?????? Why? Because our kids are on the dole instead of at Uni learning. No, not all Uni's will be charging the top rate - but many will be charging a damn site more than they do now, which is enough as it is. They should be subsidised more than they are... kids should be encouraged to get an education not discouraged.

Am I missing something? Current course fees are £1125 which will rise to £3000 (if Tone manages to twist enough arms) - almost 2 grand a year more. What makes up the extra you'll need to cover Liana ? With three kids fast approaching the Uni-stage, I think I need to be told. Gulp. [%sig%]

I'm not sure that top-up fees is actually the Blair government's worst policy. It's a major vote loser as it will hit 'middle-England' hardest but it's hard to argue with the principle. Why should those who don't have a degree pay tax to fund others to get one then pi.ss all over them in the job market? The real problem is that the government wants to increase the numbers of people going to university to 50% of young adults (it's around 30-35% now, I think). There's already thousands of people studying at places like London Metropolitan University, my former workplace, who'd be much better off trying to get a job. If we reach a point where 50% of young people are in higher education, I reckon half of them will be having their time wasted. I can't see how it's anything other than a warped method of fiddling the unemployment figures.

where's my sodding deckie?

Im not anti Blair - I am anti some of his policies and actions. Thus, when he does something i think is good, i will say so. I dont go round wearing blinkers Tony. How about you? And why was I talking emotional non facts? My facts are straight. You do need to think about the subject. Your blind devotion to whoever spouts the biggest piece of rhetoric, staggers me daily. Choose - 3,000 applies to some - others say they will raise to as much as 6,000.

WHHAAAAATTTTT !

*unwraps jaffas and waits for the Wanky Mancy to appear*

Missi by one of your casual droped words once think you might know who and appreciate your offer but would rather fight my own corner as I think thats only fair even if I can't bring myself to do it at the moment but when enough gets to enough who knows...

Agre with your second point david, to some extent. They will still get pissed all over in the job/wage dept, but by foreign workers, who have gained an education and then come here to work. Its happening already. Yes there are some at my uni too who would be better off working -- but there are many people working in crappy jobs who would be infinitely better off at Uni, learning to get a better trde... And this extra tax will in no way encourage more into education... it will discourage.

i am infuriated by this ... (and by tony dee but that's another matter and not important) ... i have a son who will be going to uni the year after next ... i definitely will not be able to fund him to the tune of anything at all and so he will have no choice but to take out a massive debt ... and if he is going to be paying it back for years what incentive is there? i agree with liana that this will discourage people from going to uni ... when my kids were very small their dad went back to uni to get a teaching qualification and he got a grant and extra bursary for training in a needed subject and also some extra funding because of having a family ... that money (6k) was hard but possible to live on and so he could leave his job and retrain and ended up better off in the end ... but who in that same situation NOW is going to be able to afford to do the same thing?

Tony, no i am not. I could mention the many things that you are, but my good manners stop me.

i went to uni in the 80s, received an almost full grant, no fees, came out with debts of about £700.00 (which i quickly quadrupled when i started work :-)) had i faced debts of many thousands and the propsect of paying them off for years to come, i probably wouldn't have gone, my parents were not in a position to help me out much financially (and probably i know, i might have qualified for some reduction of fees in the current funding system) i would have stayed in work, i worked for a bank pre university, and dread to think how i would have ended up.... also the new funding arrangements mean most students will tend to pick courses wheree they are more likely to earn a lot of money, rather than courses they want to do...so business studies, marketing,media, law, medicine will probably be more popular, and history, politics, english, philosophy, not so..... i know that colleges are whining about how much each student costs and how they need £6,000 per student, but i'm an unreconstructed socialist, and feel that the labour party should adhere at least to some of their values, free education being one of them....

illeterate illeterate??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA tony you are like one of those inflatable clowns with a weighted bottom ... you just keep bouncing back up with your moronic grin .... oooooooooooooooahahahahhaha illeterate :-)

strange you didnt answer my question isnt it - shall I repeat your emotional non-facts quote i would have to take out something like £10,00 a year for three years fish - agreed I'm not important cept to me and me mum :-) but so big deal your son has a student loan - if he earns enough he repays it - if he doesnt he doesnt - what's the problem?

what exactly WAS your question tony????

if he doesn't repay it, he defaults on a loan, surely that would screw up his chances of getting a mortgage eventually (thinking of fish here, she hopes one day to become an empty nester)

Marty - Fish - spot on.

your quote Liana- i would have to take out something like £10,00 a year for three years why isnt this an example of emotional non-facts? re repaying of loan - spot on - ? only in the land of the financially and politically ignorant - if you don't earn enough you dont have to repay - spot on indeed :-) yes i know it's illiterate - gald to bring some amusement into your life :_)

what's all this emotional non-facts business, tony?

(*whispers to marty* ... tony doesn't understand empty nesting ... i think he lives with his mum)

*bangs head on desk* no one walks into a loan thinking in such a blase manner. Did someone break your nose tony?

i think tony cant see that you mean 10 THOUSAND pounds ... i think he is fixated on a typo???

don't understand nose ref Liana - emotional non-facts martin are those spouted by Liana - which I keep reminding her of - but doesnt want to address - which is of course her right :-) glad I've entertained people again BTW :-)

again with my question, what are emotional non facts?, is it an afflcition only suffered by liana, do i use them? give me an example of an emotional non fact, please

*pops out to shop for more jaffas, and a flask*

this martin i would have to take out something like £10,00 a year for three years

I think they're offering big grants to anyone who wants to go and study social work. It's a tough one. Combined with my instinctive sympathy for the policy, there's also a bit of me that sees it as those people (in the government) who were lucky enough to get their free education in the 60, 70 and 80s, pulling up the draw bridge. For me though the bigger issue, rather than the fees, is the provision (or not) of significant grants to people from poorer backgrounds. While the fees only get paid back if you get a half-decent job, at least some of the debts you build up existing for three years will have to be paid back whatever happens. The problem is the state can only provide so much. If we fund higher education to the extent that many of us might like, we'll have to stop funding other things. Wars, perhaps?

can you get some ointment for liana's emotional non facts please, the poor girl is suffering....

Im glad you think its entertainment Tony. Got any children yourself? Fancy helping them through Uni to get a career as a doctor? Thats eight years at (as you are fixated on the ten grand point - which my uni wont be charging - some will - its a point i was making that this will happen - i cant see what it is you are failing to grasp here)... say £6,000 a year. Eight years. That's almost £50,000.... It isnt going to happen is it?

bouuuuuuuunce ..... booouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunce boing :-)

It's a fact that that you have spelt 'affliction' wrongly, Martin old boy, and I am utterly non-emotional about it.

tony , that is a typo.... and i think the loans are not just for fees which could rise to £6,000 per year, but also , living expenses, for liana to live on £10,000 per year, while supporting children, is optimistic to say the least, and whereas this new funding system won't directly affect her, it will affect future liana's won't it....

pendragon, get some ointment for that as well....

*flies past in bi-plane trailing long message saying IT'S A TYPO TONY YOU BERK!!!!!!!*

slight correction to earlier post, £6,000 possible fees plus living expenses in the form of other student loans, that would be well over £10,00 a year

*panics, there is a sudden shortage of jaffas*

This thread is making me laugh! I don't understand the student loan thing. Why not collect the cost of education back in taxes? Then people who do well out of it, pay for it. If taxes aren't high enough, raise them. Oh yes I forgot, Middle England wouldn't vote for that. Also very disappointed with Blair but God help us if we get the tories back.

Erm.. I don't really want to interrupt the flow here as it's very entertaining BUT I think the flaw in your hypothesis Sheepy, is that a hell of a lot of graduates take their newly acquired talents abroad where they earn more money and pay less taxes. Just an observation..um..Tony..er..Liana..Wing Commander Fish...et al

i would have to take out something like £10,00 a year for three years is the word 'i' a difficult concept for you to grasp Liana? how about 'something like' re the doctor biz this is a hypothetical amount - but if it comes to that - then people will have to decide - as long as there's no need to repay debt till you're earning a decent amount (and doctors - rightly- earn v good money) what's the problem? agree with David re the wars/military expenditure biz BTW - it is my main criticism of Blair govt- but as ludicrous 'defence ' spending has been a feature of all govts since WW2 and doubtless b4 -hardly unique to Blairism no i dont have kids- and am actually as a low-earner in London well fucked off with having to pay disproportionate amounts of tax- can see why some is ness- but if by bringing in top-up fees can keep my taxes down a bit - good

Ok. In words of one syllable for Tony Dee. Its an example. At the moment, I am taking just over £4,000 (four thousand pounds) per year, and its a bloody struggle keeping 3 (three) kids fed clothed and generally looked after, on that amount... I do some work, but obviously I cant do enough because I dont have enough hours in the day to study AND work AND look after children. I get my housing paid for. (I sold my house). If I were to have come into education, and wanted to be at a specific university with a good rep, it is possible that i would have to be taking a much larger loan, up to £10,000 (thats TEN THOUSAND) pounds. Now... I am almost 40 (forty). I worked for over a decade in social care, earning a fairly decent wage, and paying plenty of tax. I think I have a right to go to University, and be funded to do so, so that in a year or so, i can go into teaching adults, and pay something else back. I dont mind paying for this - but I dont see why I (this also means people like me tony, and i think this is where you are slipping up) should be penalised for doing it. And I also dont see why my three children (two who are of above average intelligence) should have to do it either. David - yes, they should stop funding b.loody wars and concentrate on life at home. The hospitals are shot, schools are shot (no teachers - why IS that i wonder) the roads, railways and housing systems are shot...

fish, fly in here and take me out of here...there's a man in here i just don't understand....

martin see the point bout living expenses - if indeed -really it will mean students building up £30,000 loans for a three year course then yes that is too much- however - seem to remember there was a load of nonsense hype when govt first brought in loans and hey guess what more people than ever are going to higher ed - so all the hype was just that! If this is measure is introduced - let's se what happens- if I havent got tired of the anti-Blair hysteria on this site by then -I'll discuss it in five years time or whever

You're beginning to flag Tony!

Liana fair points - but surely you wont have to repay your loan till you earn a decent wage?

according to my student loan agreement, i start repaying £75 a month when i earn above £10,000. Thats too much already. And thats just on a four grand loan.

tony, glad to see you understand the potential debts that future students could build up, what some of us have been saying, is that this potential debt can put off people from even attending university.... and even if they do and earn a decent wage, £50,000 plus is a hefty debt to repay, that's a mortgage in most uk cities, not london of course, all our properties are worth several million and £50,000 is what we usually have in the change jar....

fair enough - you're probably all correct about this and once again I must be wrong - let's see how this mesure pans out