Nicoletta

And Mr Beswetherick - (can you please give me a first name, because I'm getting more fond of you all the time) - in my view, Nicholson Baker generally does work - I am willing to forgive the Everlasting Story of Nory for The Mezzanine which is breathtaking and Double-Fold which is inspiring. The rest of them I'd agree with.

I accidentally deleted Umbrella's Revenge, there is no "Are you sure you want to delete ..." to say : "NO, I was aiming at another piece...." Thank you Andrew Pack for reading "Wear your collar" and I'm glad you liked this story! :)

"So Hen has attacked ME, not I him." Bilge. I can't even remember our disagreement on another thread. If you *really* only meant to state your views as helpfully as you could, then fine, but my response only argued that stating such views is 'inappropriate' (check it yourself.) I stand by that argument - if you can't say something positive, or suggest a constructive change, I think it's inappropriate to just call someone's work 'incomprehensible' without giving one iota of reasoning, whoever says it. To say so is manifestly *not* a personal attack. It was *you* who then took it upon yourself to second-guess my intentions and denounce my character, which is why you're the vindictive one. "How dare Hen think anything I say could possibly be inappropriate?" seems to be your line of thinking. "I'll show him! Oo! I'll get out my phrasebook of icily polite putdowns and let rip!" So f.uck off, and stop talking crap. I've had it with this "Hen's always plotting how to beat people in arguments" nonsense. Aside from the couple of minutes I spend reading your replies and responding to them, I don't spare a single fleck of thought to you and your opinions.

I imagine the text of these heated literary scraps will be worth millions when we're all famous. Anyway, in Ros's defence, I'm not quite sure what more reasoning you can give for finding something incomprehensible beyond saying that you don't understand it. One of the things I like about ABC tales is that people sometimes give criticism that seems harsh. This makes me more inclined to believe that, when people say positive things, they really mean it. That said, I disagree with Ros on the original. I really like a lot of Nicoletta's poems, despite not always knowing exactly what she's on about. They're a bit like a poetic version of The Cocteau Twins.

Do you mean that they are not worth millions already?? You could fool me! Thanks David! :) Nicoletta(skydolphin)

I did not completely understand it, but I loved it :0) The not understanding is my flaw, not Nicoletta's. Agree with Heironymous about her being a great poet, have always felt this about her. Have not been on internet for a while, this piece seems very different to those I have read, did remind me of Becket, too. The thing about Nicoletta's writing, to me, is it is like fire. It is not a controlled flame, like a candle it is a blazing, glorious bonfire, and if entering it, my understanding is left a cinder floating to the sky, that's fine with me. It's a privelage to read her stuff

Fay you are so kind, thank you very much for your words, I'm honoured!!

It's a very ironic story. I did not really find it humourous, rather sad. We are not "eternal race or specie." We talk about petty things and sometimes we trip upon profound realizations. It reminded me of "What do we talk of when we speak of Love" a stort story I once read.

I used the dashes once (-) on another writers web site, and fellow writers almost shooted me. I wont shooted you though. This was to great. Cheers! 3 of them.

Steven! yes it may well be considered an ironic story! What a great thing you said "We talk about petty things and sometimes we trip upon profound realizations" !! Thanks for reading and commenting on "Wear your collar".

Richard!! Thanks for not shooting me!!! :) what do you mean by saying "3 of them"?? Cheers!!

Three cheers, Nicoletta: hip hip hurrah etc.

Oh thanks chooselife!! :)

well.... thanks!! clarity.. I'll keep that in mind :)

I hate it, or maybe I just don't know what's going on. Though the bit about Marx was funny, the rest was confusing as hell. Sorry, but opinions is opinions.

"I hate it, or maybe I just don't know what's going on." Strange point of confusion!

Colchester United.....

Robert, never mind! Thank you for reading my story! I respect your opinion and I agree with you, "opinions is opinions". Once again, thank you Tony Cook.

Tony Gubba look what I accindentally found: Saturday 16 November 2002 Colchester United 0 Chester City 1 After the game the Chester manager Mark Wright said: "I thought we fully deserved our win. We did our homework and the fact that their goalkeeper was man of the match says it all." Yes, now your reply DOES make some sense.

its all good, well done.

thanks Stephen_d

I'm afraid Nicoletta's work doesn't do much for me, never has. Horses for courses, I guess! Sorry, Nicoletta, but I like my reading to be vaguely fathomably!

Do you mean this particular story Ros or my entire work here?

oh now, I noticed "never has". I guess you mean not only "Wear your collar" but all the poems or stories by me that you have read. Hmm, I'll find your work and read it. Usually I'm able to find something positive in everybody's work. Take care

By the way, is it vaguely fathomably or vaguely fathomable? I'm curious. (nothing to do with you Ros, I would have written vaguely fathomable)

Guess I'm not one to talk, but it seems a bit weird to comment on a thread just to say the work doesn't do it for you, however sweetly you put it. Thought the 'vaguely fathomable' comment was inappropriate too - we all know Nicoletta's work *is* fathomable. To say it's incomprehensible is to say it's nonsense.

Somehow that's not very reassuring, coming from Mr. Flamboyantly Ostentatious.

There are at least two kind of people whose judgement I trust in this world: Those that others consider Flamboyantly Ostentatious and those that some people consider Irritatingly Modest.

*kinds*

actually, kind is correct Nicoletta.... like sheep.

thanks dear Liana!

Apologies for the typo – it should of course be 'fathomable'! Eeek! Nicoletta, Tony began this discussion and I gave my honest opinion, as did another member; as a relative newbie, I thought that was the point of this forum. (If not, please will someone let me know? I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.) It doesn't mean I think your work is bad; it just means that it isn't my cup of tea, and I can't relate to it; I thought that's what I'd said, but it seems that some are hell bent on twisting my words to suit their own elitist ends... ...Hen, I find it highly disturbing that the only reason you've 'contributed' to this thread is to make a personal attack on me. You and I will never agree on anything because you're incapable of accepting that the world at large has a multitude of likes and dislikes, many of which don't coincide with yours. Accept that, move on, and stop finding excuses to take a pop at folk who don't agree with you (I notice I'm the only one you've picked on here, even though another member has expressed similar views). I might not AGREE with your views, but I can ACCEPT them. I rather hope that you may find the maturity to do the same one day. [%sig%]

Ross, have I complained to you? Have I expressed any feelings similar to those of a person that has been hurt? What are you talking about? OK, I may have been a little bit disappointed like any normal person would have been, but only the first minute I read your comment and Robert’s, (I'm not a robot! )(And I could have been a little bit discouraged if I was not prepared psychologically to face a negative comment like yours and Robert's, but I am prepared to face even worse comments). Surely you don't expect me to let you behave as if you have been accused of being insensitive when you have already accused me of being incomprehensible! and Don't tell me you are one of those people that they are reluctant to admit their own accusations but they are always ready to claim that others have accused them! this is so childish! Nobody has accused you, but your FIRST comment was written in an accusing manner because it is completely negative and disrespectful, but that is your problem, not mine. I don't feel the need to say publicly to anyone that I don't like his/her work at all! There is always something positive to find that stops me from doing that, because I am determined to find something positive! You on the other hand left no room for my work, you condemned it with the most extreme easiness and then you have the nerve to victimize yourself? ("Horses for courses" -just like that! "Never has" just like that!), but I don't mind! I really don't! I don't burst into a laugh with your remarks, but I don't cry as well! I just received a badly stated, invalid, horses for courses opinion! No big deal! The difference between your comment and Robert's is that Robert didn't try to justify his opinion and he didn't say "never has" he just expressed his feelings with regards to Wear your collar and obviously he had no intention of saying anything beyond than that. You tried to justify your opinion by blaming my entire work as incomprehensible! OK Ross, it doesn't matter what you and I think, there is a story, there is an author and there is a reader. All three of them are based on personal opinion. We are all bound by our subjectivity. What strikes me most is your immature reaction to Hen! You ask from Hen to respect your views and you try to teach him a lesson to accept other people's opinions when you have not seen that I accepted your opinion, when you were not able to see who is the one that accepts opinions in the first place!! Hen might not like this particular story that much, but didn't find it incomprehensible, what I surmise is that he found strange the harshness of your manner and he is free to comment on that. He didn't say anything TO YOU DIRECTLY, (he said IT SEEMS, THOUGHT THE COMMENT WAS... is that a personal attack??) whereas you said directly to me and hen your stern opinion! Hen tried to be diplomatic and polite to me and you and my work, he avoided stating his opinion on "Wear your collar" because it was not as important as commenting on the comments already posted, clearly because he felt your comment and Robert's were so negative that had nothing to offer to the author (me) since you didn't say the reasons you didn't like it, you just said you didn't get it, which is not a valid reason, it's not a cogent argument and usually people don't just post a reply simply to say "I didn't get it!" There was no constructive feedback, you didn't say a word to help me, because obviously according to your statements so far I have a serious writing problem. I also helped you get away with it easily, since I didn't ask you : WHY DO YOU CLAIM YOU DIDN'T YOU GET MY STORY OR WHY DIDN'T YOU GET THE WORK YOU'VE READ SO FAR, I didn't ask you to copy and paste the parts you find incomprehensible, I didn't ask you to mention the poems that you didn't like, I didn't ask you to offer me solutions, advices etc. I DIDN'T TRY TO ARGUE in order to defend my work, I accepted your opinion and that was all I did. All I said was : "Do you mean this particular story Ross or my entire work here?" "oh now, I noticed "never has". I guess you mean not only "Wear your collar" but all the poems or stories by me that you have read. Hmm, I'll find your work and read it. Usually I'm able to find something positive in everybody's work. Take care" IS THAT A COMPLAINT? You are the one complaining Ross, you are the one who felt the need to inform us that your words are being twisted by others, yet I only see you twisting the words of Hen: "I find it highly disturbing that the only reason you've 'contributed' to this thread is to make a personal attack on me." Hen didn't even mention your name! (he has written his reply using the third person!) You were so eager to 'see' a personal attack that you grabbed hen by the collar as soon as he just questioned the validity and the usefulness of comments like your comment!! You are not able to see that Henstoat didn't contribute to this thread simply to attack you!! He tried to defend another writer's right to receive valid helpful comments and not just vague negative aphorisms on his/her work!! I rest my case. No hard feelings. By the way, I read a story of yours and a poem, your poem was quite good and the story was very good. Bye now!

I think we all have the right to state our opinions about others' work here but it should always be in a constructive manner. I find that some of Nicoletta's work is difficult because she uses words that are not in common useage in the UK - and this, I suspect, is possibly because English is (I guess) not her first language. However I have noticed a real trend in her pieces of late to become simpler and to profit from that. I think she tries to express very complex ideas and emotions in her work and therefore it is inevitable that, at times, she doesn't hit the button - as she may be relating feelings or idea chains that I have not experienced. At other times she expresses herself so cleverly and so beautifully that I want to weep. She says huge things in few words. Of late she has been in fine form, in my opinion, and that is why I pointed up her current crop of writing. But Ros, Hen please do not be put off expressing yourselves. All good criticism is valid and, although it may hurt at times, it will make us better writers and stronger people.

English is not my first language or my second or my third... I think that the term second language is about countries that have more than one official languages. In Greece we have only one language, which is Greek. The rest of the languages we call them Foreign Languages just like you call Greek a foreign language. Furthermore, I used to know very good Commercial English, but now I've forgotten most of it and I also used to know excellent English Shorthand, shorthand is like learning how to ride a bicycle, you never forget how it is done but you must practice in order to be in a good form. I never had a lengthy discussion with any English speaking person, so English is mainly a language for writing not for speaking to me. I use two dictionaries (Oxford Advanced Learner's English Dictionary and Grighton's Greek-English dictionary) and a program called Magenta's Golden Version Anglo-Hellenic Dictionary. In 1994 I succeeded in the examinations of Cambridge for Prociency in English as a Foreign language. I studied alone. My grade was B. I started writing poetry in English in 1995, in 2001 I met on the internet Funky_seagull who advised me to join Abctales. I fell in love with Abctales, this site inspired me to write. My main concern is how to write correct English and I'm not anxious at all about the content of my stories and poems, I do care though about mistakes. I'm a perfectionist. I still like using rare words and I always check if I use them correctly. According to my dictionaries the rare expressions I've used are correct. Of course I feel rather strange that my vocabulary is not "up-to-date". Yes, lately I have decided to make my writing simpler, because many things no matter how hard I tried were always lost in translation. I was trying to render Greek phrases into English without changing the original text and the original form. I have realized that the gap between these two languages is bigger than I thought, so I gave up building the "intellectual" bridge that would join them. I'm focused on what I want to say. There are hundreds of stories and poems and I can't wait to post them. Trying to render the meaning of the Greek words is meaningless, now I try to translate my thoughts directly into English. If an editor of abctales reads something I wrote and likes it but doesn't cherry it (although he/she would have loved to cherry it) because I misused somewhere an English phrase then I ask him/her to edit the piece, but only when it's about grammar and syntax. I owe a lot to Andrew Pack (two stories of the day -Save me from memories and Umbrella's Revenge - I think he was the one who decided about such matters then, he also sent me once a very encouraging email), Funky_seagull, and Mykle who were the first people who believed in me. I would like to thank the editors who cherried my work so far, Liana (for Weeks, Stung by hopes and Ideogram), Justyn T. (for Stung by thoughts) and Mark Yelland Brown (editor number 33 I think- who cherried Narrative as it should be and many other poems of mine). And last but not least I owe a lot to you Tony Cook, although I was quite disappointed by abctales almost a year ago and you know it. Your words really are touching and instill courage into my soul.

*practise*.

Why are so many writers so CRIPPLED by nonsensical fears and insecurities? The funniest thing here is when Nicoletta says "I don't mind! I really don't!" and then follows that statement with a tirade of words that show that evidently she does mind, in fact she minds a great deal. To say that her stories are incomprehensible is plainly silly, as they are nothing compared to these forum posts which blister and rant and then end in some bizarre Oscar type acceptance speech. Jesus, save me from the super sized egos around here.

Amen

Dear natural sized ego Max Im, please tell me your name, you will be one of the first abctalers that will meet me in Web-Heaven. I need your christian name of course, and your email to send you the password and a validation link, which you must click in order to become a registered member of my Electronic Paradise. Such wisdom must not be anonymous, such elegance of manners, such divine modesty must have a NAME. *by the way Max Im, I had no idea I have been awarded an Oscar, I can hardly stop my tears from pouring down my cheeks, this is my first Oscar and I feel the need to dedicate it to you, after all you announced me the results!*

Tell me more Dear Natural Sized Ego Maxim, use your imagination and that lovely vitriol you have in your anonymous soul, this will be my personal webpage from now on, at every site I'm posting my work!!

my alter ego wants to make a statement, so I'll pass the microphone.... *Short speach* In reply to Max Im's very incautious words "The funniest thing here is when Nicoletta says "I don't mind! I really don't!" and then follows that statement with a tirade of words that show that evidently she does mind, in fact she minds a great deal." Yes Max Im she said she doesn't mind, but have you realized why she said that? and to what exactly she was referring? Permit me to enlighten you, she was referring to people that don't like her work or something she has written, like Ros Lloyd who said that her work is not even vaguely fathomable. And then she felt the need to say for which thing exactly she does mind, which is: English Grammar in Context dear Max Im, and also she felt the need after three years to thank some people. Some of those people might not like her work now or might not like her now, but once upon a time they helped and she simply thanked them. She also said: "and I'm not anxious at all about the content of my stories and poems" Trust me, I'm a mini-sized ego and I know what I'm saying because I live in her mind. If you don't believe me, then ask the mini-sized ego that lives in your mind dear Max Im.

We are looking forward to hearing from you dear Max Im, at your leisure!

You're making a show of yourself. I'd stop now if I were you.

Nicas inaknot we all have our weaknesses...

I'm only human, but I'm clown enough to face the world, whatever that means... you don't have to watch, turn your face and let me perform.... my duty.

"I notice I'm the only one you've picked on here, even though another member has expressed similar views...." I let the first one go. Fact is, I've never gone onto a thread about a particular story and slagged it off in its entirety - people like 'Max Im' think I have, because they don't like me, and because they're prats. But what you're not grasping, Ros, is that having an opinion on something, and having the right to express it, doesn't mean you always *should* express it. Whatever your defence, I personally see no other reason for your initial post (and Robert's) other than to piss on the parade. If you'd offered constructive advice it wouldn't matter....but do you honestly think that for any piece flagged up on the forums, we should all weigh in with our views, however negative? I'd certainly make a few enemies if I jumped in every time something didn't particularly grasp me and I had nothing else to say about it. And yeah, I know I have 'enemies' already. But most of them prove themselves repeatedly to be manifest idiots (Hi again, 'Max Im'.) And as long as I don't make enemies out of people I respect, I feel I'm doing fine.

Loads shotgun looks about about for enemies ; $

Nicoletta seems to me the most valid poetic sensibility on this site, or on either of the couple of other sites I've frequented. She thinks, and dreams, and prolificly writes original, poetic pieces, with some of the most wonderful lines, and runs of lines, that I've seen posted anywhere, or for that matter anywhere published. Whether the writing be traditional looking free verse, or the imaginative prosy pieces she has of recent been writing, she is fertile, and sensual, and daringly intellectual. This doesn't mean that she is always writing the best poems on these sites, but more references her disposition, her spirit. We do see that she can be a passionate talker, if stirred up. Even so, I would suggest, do you glimpse some of the fire that informs the art. (examples of very strong poems, great lines and stanzas, provided on request)

Hieronymous, thank you very much.

Hear hear, Hieronymous! Bloody well said.