Pooped Pope

I wouldn't say religion is all about law. People were practising religiously way before 'civilisation' took shape. I wonder why they consider contraception wrong. Is it because they believe that it's denying someone a life? I dunno. All this and that and the other makes absolutely no difference, the sun still rises in the east and sets, erm, when it does.

Religion is to mankind what santa clause is to kids. At some point we'll grow out of it...hopefully.

Here's a site you might find interesting then, Jude. [%sig%]

Ias going to steer clear of thread so as not to further degrade the phorums into a theological debating ground but I have to say Denver that it is only taking the creation myth and Bible Geneology from Adam literally and claiming we've only been around 10k years is very much a dogmatic position held by the evangelical protestant movement. alsmost all Catholics like m take the story as a myth and are evolutionists... over and out!

So the pope is being buried on Friday - forcing Charles and Camilla to move their wedding, contrary to the original offical line from St James's, (P45's should be being issued as we speak at the palace...). Perhaps someone will have the bright idea of burying Prince Ranier on Saturday.....

Jude is right - you don't meet many European Christians that go along with the earth being 10,000 years old theory. (This comes from the Reverand Ussher, who took the Birth of Christ as AD 01, and then added onto this the generations spelled out by the Bible prior to this, assuming Adam and Eve were created seven days after Fiat Lux. Quite an imaginative bit of work, but it makes peculiar assumptions that every word of the Bible is true and that there are no omissions). I think it is only the very *seaches for neutral word* committed American christians that insist that the earth is 10,000 years old. Most other Christians say that the 'days' spoken of in Genesis are metaphorical and could have lasted thousands or millions of years in our terms, but were like 'days' to God.

This theory has also now pretty much been abandoned! (Thankfully said maverick Dominican Theologian Herbert McCabe!) Now the tendency is to treat it for what it really is - a piece of mythological symbolic poetry

p.s. You guys might like HErbie McCabe who slagged off the corruption in the Church and was sacked from his editorial position for his comments.

'He did more to spread Aids in Africa than prostitution and the trucking industry combined' Comment from Michela Wrong in the Newstatesman.

I don't know, Jude - the order is not far off, is it? If you take the traditional version in Genesis, rather than the second one that gets handily overlooked by the 'everything in the Bible is the literal truth' brigade. Surely if you believe in God, you must believe that he created the world. And that he created living things. I accept that a lot of Christians, including sort of our former Pope, say that God used evolution as a tool for creation rather than simply sweeping a hand and saying "Let there be snails", but if you don't believe that God created the world and life then you don't really believe in God, surely? Let's get onto Adam's three wives - that's something really juicy.

never mind adam's three wives Em, I had no idea it was really all about snails! he only wanted snails (makes sense really, they're a lot easier to keep an eye on) and ended up with everything else including us. Pretty sloppy work there big G.

It's easy to identify the moment of creation as "the big bang" and then the creation of the world in particular epochs equating to the days of creation. But maybe 'before' the big bang creation occured when God created the Laws of physics and conceived in His mind the Universe. Somehow in the 'mind of God' are seven different features of the manifestation of living creation. The actualisation of it doesn't really bother me when it comes to the whys and wherefores, and it's pure speculation anyway! For me questions like, 'why does God permit evil', 'how was the Universe created' and other metaphysical issues are not as important to me as questions like 'what is God doing now in the world' and 'how does God relate to me and want me to lead my life?'

I like my friend Richard's definition of religion: 'Guilt with different holidays'. Sums it up really.

Yes, but she's Wrong.

<> Have you heard about the Goldilocks theory? Some scientists say that the big bang proves that there must be some kind of god, because for the universe to be 'just right' for life to form, everything had to be exactly as it was. If the explosion was a bit harsher/lesser or whatever, the universe wouldn't have formed. So one could surmise that something made sure everything was 'just right' in order for that to happen. I do think a lot of organised religious is 'guilt with different holidays' - but Buddhism isn't about guilt at all, and lots of Christians I know don't focus on a guilty part of things, but are really liberal and want to make the world nicer. Not all Christians are Daily Mail reading, nasty, hypocrites (though some are, and one could argue they are not really Christians anyway if one felt the need).

thought actually the death of the pope did make me think a bit more about the actuality of heaven - i.e. he was dead and according to his beliefs he would have already met St Peter, got into heaven, and met Jesus/God. The idea of this actually happening seemed rather overwhelming and I sort of felt either a) wow! Imagine if it's actually *true* and b) how can any person actually believe in something so *silly*. hmmm.

Yeah the Goldilocks theory is an updated version of the teleological argument for the existence of God. I wrote a paper on it for my diploma. It falls down because we only witness one reality. We may live in a multiverse where there are a number of Universes where life is not possible, or the universe has tried to get of the ground many times before and never made it. We sit in the winning lottery ticket but maybe there are an infinite number of tickets so winning was inevitable! this is a really important issue, that many people, myself included struggle with. ometimes you just think this is just ridiculous especially when you start getting into piddly catholic dogma and rituals. The late great Cardinal Hume on his deathbed spoke of the worries he had along the lines of 'maybe all these years, i just got it wong!'

radio, if man had been alive since the begining the ratio that humanity would have increased by would mean that there would be to many people on the planet, zillions., where are all there bones burried. Man hasn't been on this planet that long mathamatics proves that, if you know what i mean.

It's a funny business, eh? I have been a commited Christian at times in my life. I don't know what I am now. A lapsed Buddhist who likes a) cake b) playing board games c) reading, writing, art and e) being nice to people (the highlight of my day is letting people into traffic queues).

I'm sure you have a place in heaven! Herbert McCabe said it was impossible to be a Christian and a Conservative and a Christian (he was of course talking Thatcher's style!capitalist values just don't go!) that's me screwed then.

I've told you that before jude! Jesus was nearlly a communist you know!

yeah I know and he was a hippie - he had long hair and didn't have a job.

He did have a job - being really cool and nice and making people feel good about themselves. I actually have a wee crush on Jesus (is that a) a sin or b) just plain sinister?)

he had long hair and didn't have a *paid* job. crush is quite normal! I have a crush on Lord Krishna but don't tell Jesus!

Hahaha! I do blame him for my crush on Jesus....albeit a kind of homoerotic, emaciated one. Krishna was obviously a babe. (I'm concerned that we could be sent somewhere dark and firey for this talk - oh phew - it doesn't exist! Yes!)

I grew up believing that Jesus looked exactly like Robert Powell and any OLd Testament prophet looked like Charlton Heston

If you've lived your life as a christian and it turns out you "got it wrong" at the end - well, hey, didn't your faith save you from more grief and heartache than it gave you, and didn't Jesus let you live a fun and fulfilled life on the whole? Unless fundamentalist Islam is the kosher stuff after all, in which case we're ALL stuffed.

Yeah - when Robert Powell was on The Detective with Jasper Carrot I was finally cured. Charlton Heston..... Hahaha. Actually TV has a lot to be blamed for....

... I was so very confused when I saw John the Baptist being called Logan and constantly running...

Yes Neil. and of course don't forget Pascal's wager. It is better to bet on it being right! In television John the Baptist is too often portrayed as a kind of sanctified Ben Gunn.

Yeah... but Pascal's wager... God bless 'im.... doesn't have any heart to it does it? I would rather believe in with my heart that justify it in my mind. (thank you for that Hayley Clintons Cards Webster)

It's funny how everyone can't help put the word 'fundamentalist' next to Islam now. There are millions of non-fundamentalist muslims, just as their are non-evangelical Christians.

There are at least two religions say you go to hell if you're not a member, and you can't be a member of both. Athiesm is the only hope we've got.

Pascal's Wager fails for me because I don't see belief in God as a pre-requisite foir heaven. And Belief in God is no guarantee either! Islam is a wonderful religion, and it does not advocate violence unless the Faith itself is threatened or in self defence. I have many muslim friends and the Qaran is truly inspirational. I love Muslim Sufi mystic poet Jalaluddin Rumi who wrote I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He was not there; I went to the Temple of the Hindus and to the old pagoda, but I could not find a trace of Him anywhere. I searched the mountains and the valleys but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I able to find Him. I went to the Kaaba in Mecca, but He was not there either. I questioned the scholars and philosophers, but He was beyond their understanding. I then looked into my heart and it was there where He dwelled that I saw him; He was nowhere else to be found.

I rather quite like the idea that I die and that's it. I think if I died and woke up in heaven (or hell) then I would be like 'sheesh, I was looking forward to a rest'

I bloody new it! That Jalaluddin Rumi thing is what Nick Cave's based the song Hiding All Away on. I was sure I'd heard it before. Thanks Jude.

It also appeared on the album cover of Enigma's "Cross of Change"

stephen, there ARE too many people on the planet. That's been established, I think...

Not exactly. But by 204something there will be more people than we can feed with the world's farming land and current agricultural methods and technologies. It's a bit silly to look at population on a global level anyway. The poulation in the third world is rising despite poverty, starvation and the AIDS epidemic BUT in the developed world we face a problem on the other end of the scale, an aging population with not enough new people being born to support them from the bottom through taxes and contribution to economic growth. Well, surely people from the developing and third world can be bought in, especially people we need (nurses etc). It makes me really happy to see Eastern Europeans sweeping the roads where I live quite cheerfully. Maybe they will learn English and move to something better but at least they are happy to do any job for now.We make up our worker shortfall and they enjoy all the things to be enjoyed in a more affluent country. And while we're at it maybe the poor countries could take some of our fat useless lazy dossers in exchange and they can starve out there.

loosely based mind

Hey, if hundreds of thousands of children weren't born into poverty, I'd have to pay far more for my Nikes. 200 hundred years, eh? rather than twenty thousand. But relapsed Catholic that I am (and if they appoint a German Pope, I really am going to convert to Judaism, seriously), I have to agree with some of what you say. I don't get the sense of a Pope who confirms that there's no Hell but says that contraception is wrong. (There has to be a Hell, otherwise there's no point)

No I think you just die. That's the meaning of life.

Sorry that should have read that gives life its meaning.

I agree with you - but religion without fear doesn't function properly. The fear can't simply be that you stop. I'm horrified by the idea of a Heaven populated by worthy smug people, and the only consolation of Catholicism was that you had to repent to get out of being burned in Hell forever. If the choice is between living forever in a dreary floaty world where there are no sins and no pleasures of the flesh and just STOPPING once you die, I'll take the latter. Religion without hell is a bit like having the Premiership without relegation. What would drive on all those clubs who know they're never going to make the Champions League if it weren't the desparate fear of tumbling into the Championship? The Pope robbed Catholicism of its greatest selling-point - Hell is real and you're gonna get it, unless you sign up with us.

I like the Sufi idea of religious ecstasy, the idea that the experience of and awareness of God can happen every waking moment, instead of pre-set times, like prayer times or going to church. The yogis would call it Agni yoga, but I think that actually most of the world's religions were founded on this idea that God/Allah/Krishna/Buddha/Zarathustra exist within oneself all the time. All the great teachers have said basically the same thing, just tempered by culture and time and people's interpretations.

Ecstacy and the resulting sehnsucht was also part of the Celtic tradition and perhaps it lies at the heart of all religions; even those like Buddhism which do not have a God per se. The common theme to me appears to be 'nature' (as C S Lewis says "a mounting sense of grandeur in the presence of natural beauty") and congregating in churches seems to miss the whole point.

It's hard to understand for me, the fear of excommunication. Can't remember who it was, but sure one of you lot will know :0) Some time in middle ages when it was a bit rough there was a baron who went about doing things that would horrify Pol Pot. No one could stop him. But when he died (I think of natural causes) it was screaming with terror because he had been excommunicated It's the emphasis on pain in Catholicism! At school the nuns used to put little stones in their shoe in Lent to remind them of Jesus' suffering for us. I'd rather think he lived for us, not died for us, that he gave us the sermon on the mount, not guilt It seems so unfair, for someone who didn't even write down what he thought, to have all these regulations and punishments attached to their name

Just watched a film with Willie Nelson performing some fairly decent music - never been a great fan of the man in pig-tails so it must be something to do with the joys of Spring. Still it served to remind me that music is another powerful 'intoxicant' and that would be a good reason for churches (to house the organ).

Well, Jesus never even wanted a church. That was the disciples' idea, to put into concrete the master's teachings after he died. Problem is, Emperor Constantine, being the shrewd politician he was, took out all of the teachings of the Christ that said: God is within you, and you are within God (eg the Gnostic Gospels, which also held that women are powerfully spiritual). He conveniently left in all the other flagrantly misinterpreted teachings and inserted a few left over from the Old Testament. Jesus never mentioned anything about a Heaven and a Hell, apart from saying that the kingdom of heaven is within you. NOT up in the sky. The Church had no power over people who had God 'within' them: they needed to establish an institution to control the populace (and rob it of its money; I mean, the Catholic church is gobsmackingly, obscenely wealthy. Jesus was a carpenter and didn't need to carry around a solid gold mitre to assert his authority, did he?). But Catholicism today is more emotional than intellectual: people put up with the Pope's conservative stance (or ignore it) because of this.