If Proof Were Needed...

The Reagans ran America steered by astrology and didn't do too bad a job.

You gotch it missi. Spot on.

What is a libran?

A superstitious tory.

I've spent all my life hating the tories and voting labour, but guess what this electionI'm going to steel myself to vote tory, because I hate what that fucking lying bastard Blair did in Iraq.everyone in my family who has been rock solid labour for decades feels the same, and is either abstaining or voting for someone else. We ain't got a labour party no more, just two tory parties, so I'm choosing the lesser of the evils.

In the event of you getting your way at the polls you will inevitably find that you voted for the more evil of the two. I find it very sad when people vote on a single issue. No party ever gets complete endorsement from anybody. As to say that Blair lied on Iraq, I don't believe he did. he was almost certainly fed dubious information and the cabinet advisors didn't prevent it. All in all I believe Blair is an honourable man, and whatever degree of honesty he displays it's a thousand times more than Howard would even know about.

I think the Roman probably did the most to confuse the issue when they crossed Christ with Apollo and gave us a sort of Sun of God born at Christmas etc. Of course it might have helped if they had really believed in Christianity rather than merely seeing it as a good political step.

Here's my face! : ) Wish I could meet some of you guys, but I live across the ocean blue.

sheesh mississippi, don't get you at all. You are like the head honcho for bull$hit spotting in every other area of life, but when it comes to Blair you have swallowed his weasely BS defence on Iraq hook line and sinker. Guess we all have our blind spots eh...ha ha

If you say so.

Actually I believe it was the right thing to do anyway.

Well, exactly, and then there's the whole question of the HRE (Holy Roman Empire) 'editing' the gospels, leaving those that were the most politically expedient and advantageous to remaining the seat of spiritual power. It's so twisted...

Shit! What AM I doing? MYKLE, DON'T BOTHER, I AIN'T INTERESTED.

oh fateful. you can number yourself amongst the millions of whiny, needy cowards you want the government to telepathically devote themselves to your every neuroses. you and your ilk just want to hurt tony blair because he didn't take any notice of you when you said "no war" and he went and did it anyway, without your permission. so, like all cowards, you now emerge from the back of the crowd and want to put him down for getting a bloody nose. weak. redundant. cowardly. hey...a perfect supporter for the tories. go ahead, vote tory. michael howard loves you.

Did Blair lie about Iraq? Well, I guess only he really knows. I certainly am convinced that he must have had some doubts, but decided to tough it out at all costs, as is his nature. My own theory, is that Blair thought that being party to toppling Saddam, would make him popular with the British public. If he had known that all the evidence was at least questionable, there is no way he would have run with it, he's too bright. Sadly, for him, a lot of the evidence was, at best, questionable, and everything unfolded from there. For him to make this poor judgement, might make him a wannabe populist, but I have not even convinced myself that he is a barefaced liar. If you have broadly supported his domestic policies over the last 8 years, I would say it is harsh to turn tail and vote for Howard. If, however, you plain just don't like him, I still think it is harsh to vote for Howard et al. Howard is (and always will be) inextricably linked with the Major/Thatcher era and unless you are very young or have a serious memory problem, you will remember why they crashed to the most humiliating defeat in 1997.

Well put, Tim.

Blimey...Maggie you have lost the plot totally. Mind you she is old and has had a stroke. When I pass my sell-by date I'm going into hiding.

One rumour was that she is taking up pole dancing!

Yes, i like the Muslim idea of the scholars learning their holy book by heart and reciting it regularly so that the people can check there have been no changes. Where as the Jehovah's Witnesses seem to revise their bible every month. I suppose it depends on whether your a traditionalist or not. Personally I like the Buddhist approach - find out for yourself, but even that has been riuned by those who miss the whole point and need to add rituals and rites to everything in an effort to control and contain. Science is fast developing along the same lines where people are foolish enough to believe everything they are told if it's from a scientist. The problem lies with us not with God but it's nice to have someone to hang the blame on.

Their ineptitude at finding a strong leader is funny to me... they just trade in one pillock for another...

George, how am i gonna sleep tonight with that image in my mind??

It'll help if you sleep with your pole between your legs.

did tony blair lie about iraq? of course he bloody well did. he's not going to turn round and say that they'll use any excuse to topple a brutal regime and simultaneously prevent possible carnage in the middle east should iraq fall into the hands of the gangs and the mullahs. saddam was falling over anyway, but what he was going to leave behind was a huge country without any political structures that would start some very very nasty international carnage on a huge scale. look at history. it's a clue. prime ministers lie. the best ones do. they get things done that we wouldn't ever want to licence in the harsh light of hobson's choice. that's their job. the united nations didn't sanction the activity because three of the un council were directly implicated in maintaining saddam or would be involved in carving the country up post-saddam. you can't fricken go on television and say the united nations is a stitch-up. so you lie about some weapons of mass destruction. boo-flippin-hoo.

People have to believe in something. Trust me, I'm a Scientist.

>> ...look at history. it's a clue. prime ministers lie... << lol It's SO easy when you read a history book isn't it. YOU have no absolute proof that Blair lied, anymore than anyone else. it's just what you choose to believe on the basis of the propaganda (whoever's) because it suits your view. That's ok, we all do that.

Human beings need rituals; in fact, I would argue that rituals can actually be a very _good_ thing, as they get people through the transitional phases in life with a clear set of blueprints as to what to do next. Nothing worse than getting stuck in a liminal state with no guidance as to how to get out of it...

History is a guide to the present and future, but to say that because a politician has lied in the past, therefore all politicians are liars, is a futile exercise. Perhaps all politicians are liars, we still have to vote in a government and perhaps then we have to vote for the least worst or at least our perception of this. BTW Michael Howard would never lie.

To not believe in myths is a believe system in it self? Rituals are inherent to human nature? *Just pondering the idea*

Yes, Britain breeds its own peculiar species of weirdoes, I've found... God love 'em! ;-)

No, not inherent, but a by-product of being human, if you like.

No hasstle with rituals per se - just that it is often preached that God demands them. Must go to church every Sunday etc. - why should God care?

Great thread mississippi! Although I am convinced that astrology and 'your stars for today' is bunk, how come I fit very neatly into the character traits that astrologers describe for your typical virgo? I kicked my shoes off last night (during Hustle) and toe-flicked them a short distance into the centre of our lounge. Nobody said a word. Over the next ten minutes I realised that the fact that one shoe was facing me with the other upside down across its toe was distracting me from the programme so I got up and arranged them neatly against the wall. "Why?" They all shouted. Mrs. Stormy also lives up to her star sign's traits. So, can anyone explain this to me ... the fact that I think it's all bullshit yet many people I know live up to their described characteristics? How/why does your birth date control your traits? Anyone else care to confess the less attractive side of your star personality? Should this be a new thread? So many questions, so few answers.

God doesn't. The church does. But I speak of other rituals.

Which ones do you think God decrees then AG?

Piss off Jon.

We only look peculiar from where you're standing.

With benefits both to the individual and as a product of Social dynamic interaction within Social groups? As an inherent functional part or as a product? I don't disagree with you AG, Just queries.

Actually, where I'm standing is probably the best view of all... ;-)

I don't think 'god' decrees any of 'em, Smiley. Human beings are the only animals on the planet that have rituals, because we are the only animals who create culture to adapt to our environment. Most rituals hold social significance, but in the modern world ours have been watered down quite a bit.

The thing about astrology, Colin, is that like religion and other theory based fears, they only work for those that want them to, and those people will find the evidence of the proof no matter what. Now perhaps your shoes WERE trying to tell you something, but I prefer to believe that the disposition of them just pissed you off in a manner akin to something out of line on a job you visited today. Your engineers eye was offended. Now about Thatcher schmoozing with that disgusting piece of crap, Stringfellow?

"Yes, i like the Muslim idea of the scholars learning their holy book by heart and reciting it regularly so that the people can check there have been no changes. " That is the single most worrying thing about Islam as it is practiced today... everything changes Mykle, look around you. Do you think a book written in 700 AD or thereabouts will still have a relevance to the letter in the year 2200? I mean what direction is Mecca from outer space?

I would have to agree a bit with that, llegspider. But the fundamental teachings of Islam are just as timely today as they were then, which are the same as the basic tenets of Christianity, Buddhism, etc., e.g. charity, kindness, material austerity, etc.

haha! A new species!! We shall name them writersaurus. A specie belonging to the kingdom thesaurus and decedent of the specie dictorsaurus.

Ho! And I'm not sure why the female of the Species often referrer to the males as dickheadsaurus... But it has something to do with erectorsaurus, I think..

Why are you surprised that Stringfellow was schmoozing with Thatcher? They make (ideoligically and physically) a great couple. About time he had a woman his own age.

Nah, the females are more likely to refer to the 'uselessaurus': it has to do with the males' genetic inability to put the seat down on the toilet or figure out that the spatula was, indeed, in the drawer where the female said it was; only the male 'looked' and of course didn't find it...

lol

*feels hackles rising*

Don't believe it AG. This is mail cunning at work hear.

It's a very difficult path to tread if you start changing Holy Scritures to suit yourself though, Gerry. If you first claim that they were inspired of God but then say 'Oh the prophet was having an off day and got this bit wrong' where do you stop? The Christians tried spiritual blackmail with a dire warning for anyone who made changes - but of course you have to believe in the first place to be intimidated. Power corrupts and those it corrupts will hazard almost anything to increase their power. If they can't change it then they are forced to try to reinterpret and that the danger with Islam.