Why I try hard not to hate the baby boomers...

72 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Wed, 2009-05-06 12:33

Well, for starters, hate is bad mmmkay. Secondly it is as silly to label an entire generation as it is to label an entire race. My comments (that I really need to get off my chest) are not a blanket criticism of absolutely everyone born between 1946 and 1965. But here are just a few observed trends that quite frankly make my blood boil.

The thing I find intolerable about the baby boomers is that they campaigned for freedom while students, but since they started their own families and settled into careers and came into governance they've reduced the freedoms and opportunities of the generations that will come after them. Here are a few examples:

1.It was fine for them to travel the world, take drugs, drop out for a few years and enjoy their youth by knocking about the English countryside in a clapped out VW camper van. But all we get from them now is warnings about the environmental damage of air travel and cars and how bad drugs are (btw skunk is the same drug as cannabis, just stronger).

2.Abolishing good pensions whilst clinging tenaciously to their own.

3.Inflating house prices whilst at the top of the market. The house price bubble only ever benefited those who traded down during the peak years. The House price bubble was nothing but a giant pyramid scheme transferring wealth up the generational hierarchy.Not only this, but they want to hang onto all their money and have their old age care funded by subsequent generations.

4.Had free education, then introduced tuition fees. We need to reduce the number of university places, make them all free and revert back to average students going to their local polytechnic. Polys had a very important role which we seem to have forgotten.

5.Baby Boomers despite their youthful Hippie ideals have been into conspicious consumption more than any subsequent generation. This might be possibly due to the fact that subsequent generations don't have any cash left after their mortgage/ rent payments (see point 3).

Apologies to all the baby boomers here for tarring you with the same brush. My own generation has its faults I know, as we all do.

Wed, 2009-05-06 13:34

lenchenelf

Well Jude, a good rant always clears the sinuses, I find :-) 1) Didn't 2)Haven't 3)Renting & my kids know they're stuck with me 4)As far as it went. 5) hahahahaha, give me a break :-)

Wed, 2009-05-06 13:40

poetjude

I do feel a little better now. Lechenelf, you are truly exemplary - a shinning dewdrop upon the cow-pat of your age! jude

Wed, 2009-05-06 13:46

lenchenelf

Buy you a pint sometime missus ? :-) (dewdrop????) Lena :-)

Wed, 2009-05-06 13:51

poetjude

I shall hold you to that at the next abctales event (you should come)! jude

Wed, 2009-05-06 14:00

lenchenelf

You're on (packs zen zimmer frame, ouzi, soapbox, eau de toilette ...all the essentials , you understand, mindchoo, I don't do stairs, bit like the Daleks:-) ) Lena

Wed, 2009-05-06 14:54

bobblehat2023

"5.Baby Boomers despite their youthful Hippie ideals have been into conspicious consumption more than any subsequent generation." I think 'hippie' is more a sensibility than a set of ideals. It's certainly true that what is now the most prominent brand of 'new age' thinking combines the worst of right-wing thinking (excessive individualism and a general belief in the right to instant gratification irrespective of the effects on others) with the worst of left-wing thinking (disregard for traditions on the basis that they're old rather than on the basis that they're bad). But lots of hippies didn't go down that route.

Wed, 2009-05-06 15:01

poetjude

Yes, utterly correct Bukh... I should have said Baby Boomers despite being the generation within which the hippie subculture was born ... have indulged in conspicious consumption more than any subsequent generation ... or something. jude

Wed, 2009-05-06 15:21

chuck

I think you make some good points poetjude. 'Real' hippies were rebelling against crass materialism....amongst other things. I think some have stayed true to those ideals in spite of hefty salaries and inherited wealth. Of course not all baby-boomers were ever philosophically inclined in the first place.

Wed, 2009-05-06 15:31

#10

poetjude

'Are you making a bid to become the New Macjoyce?' Nah, I could never reach his lofty heights. Not a class thing either since a lot of working class baby boomers bought their council house at huge discount, sold it to my generation for some stupid sum and then retired to the Costa del Sol. jude

Wed, 2009-05-06 15:38

#11

poetjude

I don't think it's a conspiracy and I don't think emerging trends are their 'fault', hence I try not to hate since I would have been the same if I had been born 20 years earlier. Sherry, beer, champagne truffles, mouthwash, I spurn them all. jude

Wed, 2009-05-06 15:49

#12

Mangone

I can't take any of this seriously except for the points that Buk made. I'm just posting to say that I found FTSE's 5 points very amusing and worth the whole thread. Made my day.

Wed, 2009-05-06 19:01

#13

Ewan

Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, I retired to the Costa Del Sol; you know what? I'm damn glad I did. My pension is still taxed at source so you're getting your pound of flesh Jude, to fund whatever it is you want to fund. No, I don't demand winter fuel allowance - I'm not old enough for a start. No, I don't sit in an English themed pub all day moaning because no-one speaks English. My Spanish is pretty damn good after barely four years and I do not want to come back. One more thing, it's absolutely nothing to do with Poles, people of the Islamic faith or poor services. It's the sun, stupid.

Author Page at the 'Zon

Wed, 2009-05-06 19:10

#14

poetjude

As I said, I probably would have done the same ... jude

Thu, 2009-05-07 15:01

#15

martin_t

1. I never did the dropping out thing, spent my gap year working in a bank 2. my pension is worth less than I have paid into it at the moment 3. have bought one flat, never traded up or down since, it's where I live 4.Had the free education, thanks, and marched against proposed cuts in the 80s, didn't do much good, sorry 5. I do like shiny things tbf I'm at the arse end of the baby boomers, born in 65, I previously thought that the baby boom stopped in 64, so now you tell me I'm part of the previous generation - and on a serious note, it was the baby boomers who became politicians who did all that - the rest of us didn't like it

Thu, 2009-05-07 15:42

#16

chuck

The cut off date was actually August 1965. 9 months prior to the release of 'Mother's Little Helper'.

Thu, 2009-05-07 16:21

#17

martin_t

right, so I am a baby boomer, the last 5 months of the baby boom this is our time !!!

Thu, 2009-05-07 17:08

#18

poetjude

The generational cut off dates are usually arbitrary or ill-defined. I am either the tail end of generation X or a pioneer of generation Y depending on your definition. Socially, I am more like generation Y but in all other facets of life, I am definitely a generation X-er. Social trends evolve gradually over time so those on the end of a generation will show traits of the next. Similarly, those at the beginning of a new generation will share characteristics with the preceeding generation. Also each generation has distinct sub-sets (I am in the MTV generation, a sub generation of X) and the baby boomers born between 1946 and 1950 tend to be more austere than those born during the fifties due to them experiencing and remembering post-war austerity. Those born in the sixties have a lot more in common with generation X. And all these are perceptions of social trends rather than absolute definitions of people. jude

Thu, 2009-05-07 23:44

#19

lenchenelf

Are you suggesting a Social model similar to that indicated by Transgenerational Epigenetics, where effects may indeed skip a generation (longitudinal study..name escapes me)? S'interesting stuff. Do we, as a hypothetical parallel, emotionally hark to a time of our Grandparents and their lifestyle/mores/memes/norms as a romanticised, but authoratitive model of behaviour :-) puts kettle on, thinks about struffolli :-0) Been mulling on this for some time btw, I think we're on a backswing in some respects :-) atb Lena

Fri, 2009-05-08 07:34

#20

poetjude

I'm not a social scientist and have never heard of Transgenerational Epigenetics but it sounds good! This is, as I alluded to, a generalisation. I just get bitter about being unable to trade up from a flat to a family home because of the house price bubble. You can argue that it's burst and deflating but this bubble happened to be inflating at the peak of my fertility! Generation X, have been the most shafted by the asset bubble - our parents could have a home on one salary whereas two salaries are necessary now and even that isn't enough. It's one of the reasons why from my circle of schoolfriends (about 10 girls), only one has a child and we turn 33 this year! In hindsight, the MTV generation will probably be renamed the IVF or test tube generation! Generation Y has been shafted by the boomers as well but they're too naive to realise (or should I say 'there to naive too realise' since the trophy kids were never taught grammar in case the correction hurt their feelings). Before anyone gets all uppity, I know, it's an unfair generalisation, my brother is a Millenial and he can spell; not all boomers stoked the asset bubble and variables such as socio economic background play a large part. I am just suffering from some of the neologisms identified by Coupland in his book "Generation X": Boomer Envy: Envy of material wealth and long-range material security accrued by older members of the baby boom generation by virtue of fortunate births. Homeowner Envy: Feelings of jealousy generated by the young and the disenfranchised when faced with gruesome housing statistics. jude

Fri, 2009-05-08 09:09

#21

lenchenelf

Your level of frustration with the situation is understandable; to get onto the housing ladder, my elder children have delayed their potential of higher education in order to work, save and buy a property, though trading up or future study will not be an option for many years. They have some resentment of the either/ or choices perceived to be available to them at the time, but in the end, it was their choice,rather than renting, which is more than some have open at present. I know of many in a similar situation, who delayed having a family until their mid-late 30's and are then faced with extra-ordinary and exorbitant childcare costs as with geog. mobility for employment and an aging grandparent pool, do not have a family network to rely on. My grandson is older than their eldest children, though we are of an age. Where I would disagree, is that you seem to take this to be a novel phenomenon, peculiar to your age group?

Fri, 2009-05-08 09:23

#22

poetjude

The divergence of house prices from wages has never been as wide as it has been in the past decade. It makes no odds now really since I sold my flat and got a council flat which is being knocked down next year when I'll be moved into alternative social housing (which will be big enough for my needs so I can have a child now if I choose). Childcare costs can be reclaimed through tax credits up to £175 pw but only for a single parent, so it means I can't actually get married and have my other half move in until the kid starts school. This isn't the way I planned my life to go (social housing as a single parent) and it shouldn't be the only option for a young professional with an excellent education and a good job, but I've been forced into a corner! Council housing used to carry a stigma, now my position is enviable. Sadly I had to be so ill I almost died before I qualified! jude

Fri, 2009-05-08 10:03

#23

lenchenelf

"Childcare costs can be reclaimed through tax credits up to £175 pw but only for a single parent, so it means I can't actually get married and have my other half move in until the kid starts school." Jude, there are alternatives, which, from my experience and of other families have been an initial lifestyle based on one f/t income and a part time wage. The role of childcare to be decided between yourselves. It's an option, but it does mean the need for a flexible attitude on the part of an employer and you as a couple. ..and yes, adequate social housing, such as it is now, is very, very limited. Hence the flurry in the private sector. Whatever you choose to do, I sincerely hope it goes well for you and your partner. atb Lena

Fri, 2009-05-08 10:28

#24

poetjude

It's a minefield and I keep mulling over the options with a calculator. I want a career but I don't think most childcare is up to scratch and I think I'm best placed to care for child. Financially we'd be better off living apart but of course we want to be together. I have the feeling that things will work out and thanks for the good wishes! jude

Fri, 2009-05-08 13:01

#25

Enzo

I'm taking a year off work to be a househusband* from xmas. I'm fortunate that my work will give me a career break, because it is in fact cheaper for me not to work than pay for suitable full time childcare in my area (2 kids under 3). That said, even if it wasn't cheaper, so long as we could afford it, I would always want it to be me or my wife as primary carers in the pre-school years. I means 4 of us in a teeny tiny toy flat for longer than we'd hoped, but like you Jude, we can't afford to buy a house anyway, so we'll make do. Best of luck with everything, Jude. I don't post much but I often read - I look forward to hearing more as things develop for you. Ben * feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing

Fri, 2009-05-08 15:16

#26

Mangone

A friend of mine finally found the girl of his dreams about five years ago. She was about fourty and had waited all her life for the right man. My friend decided to wait awhile, just to be sure that the relationship would last before chancing children. Finally, he decided that a child with her would be worth the disruption and she was such a lovely person thet any child of hers would be a blessing to the world. Recently, she missed her period and began choosing names, she was glowing with happiness. My friend was a bit worried about her since mid-fourties seemed to him to be a little late to have a first child. He talked her into going to the doctors - she wasn't pregnant after all... probably menopause.

Fri, 2009-05-08 14:37

#27

maddan

* feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing Manbitch?

Fri, 2009-05-08 15:52

#28

poetjude

Fertility starts dropping after 35,and dropping sharply after 40, although I know someone who married at 34 and had seven! I also know someone who has just had her first aged 46 (natural conception). Another issue where I live is the lack of suitable state schools. I can at the moment afford to send only one child to an independent day school. Enzo, it is wonderful that you're going to be a full time manbitch. I know someone else who has just given up work to care for his baby son and he looks so full of joy and gratitude for having this time with his child. jude

Fri, 2009-05-08 18:49

#29

Ewan

* feel free to replace with a more PC term of your choosing hero or example, either will do. Ewan

Author Page at the 'Zon

Fri, 2009-05-08 23:05

#30

Enzo

Haha - Hero or example perhaps, but I'm guessing Manbitch will stick. I'll report back at the time with how it pans out. I've had a taste of it anyway, I was part time for a while last year. It mostly consisted of soft play areas with surprisingly deep ball pits, muddy days at a city farm and parent & toddler groups in which I was the token man. I've also seen loads of Something Special on Cbeebies - it's genuinely educational. I know lots of Makaton signs now. It's hard work yes, but how much better than sitting in an office is all that? Loads, I tell you. B

Fri, 2009-05-08 23:30

#31

Mangone

I certainly hope it doesn't stick, Enzo! Simply 'Full time parent' might be the term of choice because that's what it is and surely it is something to be encouraged be it man or woman.

Sat, 2009-05-09 00:14

#32

jxmartin

Jude, Your criticisms are appropriate. We (Baby boomers) started out like the original rebellious generation. We questioned everything. It was a radical break from the past when children accepted as gospel all that the earlier generation had taught them. We stood against war and racism and all other ugly side effects of an established bureaucracy. Sometime we changed things, sometimes we failed. But at least we tried. Today. kids stand for good jobs, a beamer (BMW) and any established order that will deliver the same to them. As we got older, we had children and sought pensions and security like any other aging band of brothers. But always ever in out minds was the question "what is right with government and society and what can we do to change it? " No generation has a lock on righteousness. Hopefully, every succeeding generation builds upon the gains of the previous one. I hope those of you who come after us rigorously challenge your government on any and all issues that you find pertinent. Youth is the spear point of change. May it never blunt itself on the glut of temporal comfort. J.X.M

Sun, 2009-05-10 12:43

#33

TheShyAssassin

At least we baby boomers weren't dullard enough to run up fifty grand on credit cards while seemingly oblivious to the fact that one day it would have to be repaid. Gnash!

Sun, 2009-05-10 13:08

#34

poetjude

Absolutely true and the chickens are coming home to roost. I have to say, those in their late twenties and thirties have an almighty slap in the chops coming. As well as being maxed out on the credit cards, most of them have eyewatering mortgages they can't really afford and when interest rates are put up to double digits (because either the guv'mint can't sell bonds any more or we need a hand out from the IMF) there will be reposession en masse. They don't deserve to be bailed out and I think the period a bankruptcy lasts should be extended to 15 years. Maybe it isn't just the baby boomers who irritate me - I think I have a problem with other people in general and need to learn a bit of tolerance. jude

Sun, 2009-05-10 13:10

#35

Mangone

You should try thinking like a nun :)

Sun, 2009-05-10 13:21

#36

TheShyAssassin

Intolerance is good. Be intolerant of racists, sexists, peadophiles, stupidity and caravanners. And that twat who got chucked off The Apprentice last week.

Sun, 2009-05-10 13:23

#37

TheShyAssassin

Eh?

Mon, 2009-05-11 07:21

#38

Ewan

*/% My Pink Half of the Drainpipe

Author Page at the 'Zon

Mon, 2009-05-11 11:01

#39

Ewan

"*/% My Pink Half of the Drainpipe" is the resolution of the equation (* Alternative London)/(% Paint the drainpipe) Signed Bonzo's Dog

Author Page at the 'Zon

Mon, 2009-05-11 11:07

#40

Ewan

That's the New Maths version, of course. That's our fault too, isn't it?

Author Page at the 'Zon

Tue, 2009-05-12 00:27

#41

Yan2

They have families :) Love, love, love :) ~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Tue, 2009-05-12 12:38

#42

anipani

poet jude, read your fierce diatribe against baby boomers. it hasn't been like that for all of us, I decided to stay at home with my two boys, after having had a career for 15 years. When I did, I felt isolated, and guilty for not working. All society seemed to require all adults of working age to be putting into the pot. I resisted, my husband was a shift worker, I wanted to bring up my children with my values, and it seemed the sensible option in our case. We struggled financially, didn't have new things, I was cross I couldn't have new baby things when they were little, we bought second hand, clothes, furniture the lot.Now, I am really glad we didn't spend what we didn't have. Our boys are teenagers now, and I am still at home, although we are not married, so the boys are co-parented.Life is complicated, and it's easy to look at others and feel hard done by. I know the only way to live well , is to live within your own conscience, and values. Envy is the precursor of greed, and greed is never satisfied. Live well, be happy.

anipani

Wed, 2009-05-13 10:13

#43

tcook

Best of luck with the manbitch stuff, Enzo. I did it for three months in 1978 in Mid Devon. Our eldest started at playgroup in this time - you can imagine how the housewives did chatter when the manbitch turned up at Copplestone playgroup with his little girl. In fact they just ignored me completely - to the extent that at coffee time I got no coffee. Ho Hum. I guess the long hair, hippie, parliamentary candidate (Labour) tag didn't help either. Or the well known local fact that we had wild people from Lunnon' come to stay weekends. It was all too much for them (but one of them did wink at me in the car park!)

Wed, 2009-05-13 16:55

#44

Mangone

I have to say that I find the use of “manbitch” as a term to describe a full time male parent as extremely insulting, it also implies that women who choose to look after their children rather than work are simply bitches. I find it hard enough to understand why Dan should have suggested such a term but that Mr Cook should seek to popularise it is beyond belief! Anipani, I thought your post was worthy of a cherry - you are a star!

Wed, 2009-05-13 18:47

#45

GodAlmighty

Completely agree Mango head, manho would be so much better. Agree with anipani too, this thread smacks of Victim, Self-Pity, Poor Me. Reminds me of one of those boring drunks who sit there bemoaning their lot conveniently able to forget that if they hadn't played out their life trashed in the gutter they may have made something of themselves. And of course someone else has to be to blame. Human nature I guess, something goes right it was down to me, if it goes wrong it was someone elses fault!Your generation is the one at fault, you expect everything on a plate, to buy a house you scrimp and scrape and once the mortgage is paid you enjoy life. You don't do both at the same time. How vindictive to hope people lose their houses and end up bankrupt, is this so you have someone to look down on? Will it make you feel good about yourself when they're homeless and you have your council house? If your only problem is you can't buy a house with all that is going on in the world you should think yourself lucky. Get grateful.

Wed, 2009-05-13 19:10

#46

2Lou

'Manbitch' was a joke, Mangone. A deliberately outrageous suggestion for comic effect - well, I laughed. (It's all right, Enzo would have got it too, they all know each other). ~ www.fabulousmother.co.uk

~
www.fabulousmother.co.uk

Wed, 2009-05-13 20:36

#47

Mangone

Point taken 2Lou. I just feel that we should be encouraging people to put their children above their pay packet. It seemed to me that Mr Cook's post did the exact opposite, at least for men thinking of being a full time parent, except for those who see it as an opportunity to meet winking women :O)

Wed, 2009-05-13 21:15

#48

poetjude

My gripe with house prices as a large and rather insane ponzi scheme is as much for my brothers (20, 23, 27) young professionals who are priced out. I have myself never been out of work and have enjoyed a fruitful career which I am still building upon. I could have bought another property but wasn't dumb enough to buy at the peak. If you look at the asset bubble psychology chart http://www.thefinancialhelpcenter.com/Real-Estate-Pics/Bubble-Psychology... you'll notice the words "Greed" and "Delusion" at the point where buyers will end up bust. Repos are essential to deflate the bubble quickly (which causes less economic pain than long slow deflation Japan style) and whilst I do regret the human cost when people over-levered through ignorance or delusion, I have no sympathy for the greedy speculators. I agree that people must scrimp and save for a house but how can say a teacher and a shop manager on a combined salary of 45K ever buy a house in London when the average price went through the 300k mark? And when they start a family and lose one wage it becomes even more unachievable no matter how hard they work. Success in one's career doesn't always equate big salary. You're right though that I should be more grateful. jude

Wed, 2009-05-13 21:22

#49

Enzo

Alright Mangone - I do know Dan and Tony (and Lou!) and took the comment in the spirit it was intended. I have to be honest, I don't know how offended I'd be even if it was said seriously. Not particularly, I imagine, but I can see why you'd react to it. The serious point is about status, I think, more even than pay. Some people I meet seem to closely associate the position of their job with their sense of achievement in life. I'd understand if they did real big important jobs, like nursing, teaching, prime minister(ing?), etc but most do the kind of middle management bullshit drudgery that I do. These are the kind of people who would meet you for the first time and ask 'What do you do?' (meaning for work), before thinking to ask 'What do you like?'

Wed, 2009-05-13 21:34

#50

Yan2

I'm a full time lone male parent and I've had more 'winking' this past few years than I've ever had. It's the best time of my life and I'd recommend it to anyone ;) ~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

~It's a maze for rats to try, it's a race for rats to die.~

Wed, 2009-05-13 21:52

#51

Mangone

Well, perhaps a good reason for single male full time parenting Yan :O) Whatever Enzo, I'd just like to see the term bite the dust and something more encouraging take its place. I'd be quite happy for your name to be used. Think of it this way; how would you like it if people started saying "I used to be an Enzo - but I'm working now."? If that doesn't bother you then I can see why manbitch doesn't either.

Pages

Topic locked